Hello, Elliot Page

Eacaraxe

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Just a reminder that a few pages ago you were insinuating a trans public figure was coming out for attention.
Yup. And pointing out how this is a trend that extends beyond trans identity and is not limited to beyond Page themselves, and is an entertainment industry-wide issue. And pointing out how in my opinion this is a trend that is rapidly becoming counter-productive. While going out of my way to point out my issue is not those identity markers or identity-based groups themselves, but rather the means by which discourse plays itself out among the public and those who profit from it rather than genuinely advance the cause of LGBTQ rights in good faith.

Problem?

...The Olympic scandal may well have provided a key PR motivation to push action over the line in the USA...
End of story.

The accessibility of sex hormones to trans men and women should not be controversial. Nor for hypogonadism, contraception, and other genuine medical reasons. But androgens are readily abused drugs, so there is a clear rationale to restrict their access to people who do not have legitimate reasons. This is not transphobia.
You didn't answer my question. Would I be facing possession charges for merely having estradiol?

And speaking of, I've looked into the potential for abuse, dependency, side effects, and contraindications of spiro, finasteride, and estradiol. I'm curious to know which part of renal failure, liver failure, deep vein thrombosis, and heart attack aren't life-threatening potential side effects and consequences of long-term use that make them potentially as dangerous and harmful as T. I'd I'd care to remind you the use of both for gender-affirming therapeutic use is still off-label, and as a sidebar I'll say flat-out it's fucking criminal cypro still isn't approved in the US. But, none of that is my point.

If the measuring stick are drugs' potential for abuse and the potential catastrophic harm that can be wreaked on a body, why are none of those scheduled? And, if being "just" a prescription pharmaceutical is sufficient for one (that is somehow still readily-accessible via the grey market) why not the other? Because you still have yet to sufficiently explain how this is not a double standard that levies additional legal -- not to mention financial -- burdens on trans men.
 

Agema

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Indeed not. But it's about as convincing as your accusation of transphobia.

End of story.
Yes. So why did you drag that nothing out so long?

You didn't answer my question. Would I be facing possession charges for merely having estradiol?
Actually, I kind of did. I certainly attempted to sidestep it as the glaring set-up for an incredibly bad argument that it was.

And speaking of, I've looked into the potential for abuse, dependency, side effects, and contraindications of spiro, finasteride, and estradiol.
Before you try to enlighten me about how drugs work and what their side effects are, please bear in mind I lecture in pharmacology, so you are extremely unlikely to.

I'd care to remind you the use of both for gender-affirming therapeutic use is still off-label, and as a sidebar I'll say flat-out it's fucking criminal cypro still isn't approved in the US. But, none of that is my point.
The issues around trials and subsequent drug licensing are primarily economic, not political. Nevertheless, there are interesting points to be made here.

If the measuring stick are drugs' potential for abuse and the potential catastrophic harm that can be wreaked on a body, why are none of those scheduled?
If you really knew about this topic then you would already know the answer to that. Besides, I've effectively already covered it, and see also Geth's comment above.
 

Silvanus

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Yup. And pointing out how this is a trend that extends beyond trans identity and is not limited to beyond Page themselves, and is an entertainment industry-wide issue. And pointing out how in my opinion this is a trend that is rapidly becoming counter-productive. While going out of my way to point out my issue is not those identity markers or identity-based groups themselves, but rather the means by which discourse plays itself out among the public and those who profit from it rather than genuinely advance the cause of LGBTQ rights in good faith.

Problem?
Well, alarm bells start to ring since the "doing it for attention" narrative overlaps almost entirely with one of the oldest right-wing tropes about LGBTQ people in the book, which has been used to dismiss and minimise people for decades.

The issues around trials and subsequent drug licensing are primarily economic, not political. Nevertheless, there are interesting points to be made here.
If an economic element is the deciding factor, then that speaks to a lack of political will to see it through, no?
 

Agema

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If an economic element is the deciding factor, then that speaks to a lack of political will to see it through, no?
Drug liensing depends on properly conducted clinical trials, which are mightily expensive to run. In the case of drugs for trans people, few if any were developed for the purpose and have been specifically tested for that role. As a result, they are used "off-licence" / "off label". This is incredibly common. For instance, many drugs licensed for (say) epilepsy are used for things like mania and aggression, or neuropathic pain, etc. The drugs are safety tested so the risk is known, evidence of efficacy is established in the medical literature (even if not formal clinical trials), the doctor is prepared to prescribe it and the patient to take it, all's good.

The point of getting a licence is to do it when it's still under patent and the producer gets sole economic rights. Once the drug becomes a generic and anyone can make it, there's no economic rationale in a company paying tens of millions of dollars to officially confirm its efficacy in another disorder. If companies aren't going to pay, who is? And besides if it is useful for other conditions, it will be used off-licence anyway, so if (big if!) people are getting their drugs anyay, why should anyone else bother either?

I can't speak for the USA, but drugs being off-licence might be a problem in terms of their insane medical insurance and pharmacy middleman company systems which cause problems or unreasonable costs. If and where this is occurring, it is deeply problematic and a legitimate trans rights issue. It doesn't matter really matter a damn in the UK: doctor prescribes, NHS takes most to all of the cost and the individual gets the drug.

Where there are problems, the government could reasonably be lobbied to pay to sort the problem out. The main biomedical / medical research organisation in the USA, the NIH, has a budget of I can't remember exactly but it's over $30 billion. It's not like some of that couldn't fund trials to get drugs licensed, although given they could fund dozens of routine laboratory research projects for the same cost as one clinical trial, someone's not going like that cost-benefit analysis.
 
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ObsidianJones

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The magic of this forum.

It's usually serious threads that spiral into insanity and memes.

Now, light hearted and celebratory threads must de-evolve into... this.

I was just psyched that someone found their true selves.
 
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Eacaraxe

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...Hence people will take doses that are acutely dangerous and will suffer the problems of overdosing it far more often. There's a clear and distinct difference between "long term use can be dangerous" and "overdosing this is dangerous in the short term"...
Or, as pertains to this discussion, "taking it in incorrect dosages over a long period of time, without adequate and consistent measurement of hormone levels by a properly trained endocrinologist or at least a general practitioner", because...

USA...their insane medical insurance and pharmacy middleman company systems which cause problems or unreasonable costs...
The UK ain't a walk in the park for trans people last I heard -- the wait time for an appointment was, what, eighteen months? But that's nothing compared to the US, where depending on studies I've seen, between approximately 15-50% percent of trans individuals who seek some form of hormone therapy are self-medicating by buying the requisite pharmaceuticals online. But now that I've discussed this in terms that apply to trans women too, can we agree it's an issue?

Because if so, you're still making my point about erasure of trans men, denial of rights issues unique to trans men, and double standards in how trans men and women are considered and discussed, by default.

But I mean, Agema's the pharmacologist, here. Perhaps they would care to discuss what might happen if you try to self-medicate and fuck up the dosage of pharmaceuticals like this over the course of months or years. I broached the subject. I, it's the part of my post which, by some quirk of the forum's reply button seems to have not made it into a single reply.

Yes. So why did you drag that nothing out so long?
I dunno, why'd you keep trying to change the subject?

Actually, I kind of did. I certainly attempted to sidestep it as the glaring set-up for an incredibly bad argument that it was.
What, that T's on the schedule list and that represents a legal barrier and challenge unique to trans men? That's not a bad argument, that's a simple statement of fact.

The issues around trials and subsequent drug licensing are primarily economic, not political.
Maybe in the UK, but here in the good old US we have to put up with reformulation, corporate capture, patent trolling and acquisition (lest we forget Martin Shkreli) and the quarter billion a year the pharmaceutical industry spends in lobbying per year. And the, billion and a half if I remember right, it's dropped on campaign contributions. The economic is the political.

Case in point, I'm damn surprised no pharmaceutical company has tried to reformulate spiro and re-patent it as an androgen blocker, and hop on the orphan drug gravy train while blasting the airwaves for developing "the world's first drug designed for gender affirmation" or some equally idiotic tagline.

Well, alarm bells start to ring since the "doing it for attention" narrative overlaps almost entirely with one of the oldest right-wing tropes about LGBTQ people in the book, which has been used to dismiss and minimise people for decades.
Just because someone you don't like says something, doesn't mean there may not be a grain of truth to it or that it warrants zero critical examination. Like it or not, there are financial and social benefits for the behavior, and therefore a vested interest in the current day and age for engaging in it. Whether it's the given celebrity and/or their agency who benefits from earned media, the media outlets who benefit by running the story and bringing in ad revenue, all the way down to little idiot influencers and clout chasers on social media who yap about it to optimize reach and impressions. That may not necessarily be the intent of the news item's source, but it still occurs nevertheless.

Because as I said, we are reaching a point in terms of LGBTQ awareness and acceptance, it ought to be incumbent upon us to ask "when is this just going to be a normal thing?" Or to put it another way more relevant to the L's, G's, B's, and Q's, are festivities like the Folsom Street Fair still relevant and important, or do they serve in the greater sense to perpetuate negative stereotypes of the non-heterosexual community that inhibit fully normalizing those identity groups?
 
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Silvanus

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Just because someone you don't like says something, doesn't mean there may not be a grain of truth to it or that it warrants zero critical examination. Like it or not, there are financial and social benefits for the behavior, and therefore a vested interest in the current day and age for engaging in it. Whether it's the given celebrity and/or their agency who benefits from earned media, the media outlets who benefit by running the story and bringing in ad revenue, all the way down to little idiot influencers and clout chasers on social media who yap about it to optimize reach and impressions. That may not necessarily be the intent of the news item's source, but it still occurs nevertheless.
Hmm. There's also a financial and social benefit for Page in keeping quiet and not coming out. And your post seemed to be casting aspersions about Page's personal motivations-- again gelling with that tired old right-wing trope-- rather than directed towards the media circus.

Because as I said, we are reaching a point in terms of LGBTQ awareness and acceptance, it ought to be incumbent upon us to ask "when is this just going to be a normal thing?" Or to put it another way more relevant to the L's, G's, B's, and Q's, are festivities like the Folsom Street Fair still relevant and important, or do they serve in the greater sense to perpetuate negative stereotypes of the non-heterosexual community that inhibit fully normalizing those identity groups?
....are you seriously making the argument that LGBTQ people should moderate their behaviour and keep quiet in order to avoid the ire of straight people? This is another age-old trope, which has been used for decades to shift the blame for homophobia from the perpetrator to the target.
 

Agema

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What, that T's on the schedule list and that represents a legal barrier and challenge unique to trans men? That's not a bad argument, that's a simple statement of fact.
One the one hand, tough. On the other, it's the wrong answer to the wrong way of looking at the issue.

It is unfortunately the case that testosterone and other similar drugs are widely abused where the female equivalents are not, so illegal possession of them is a bigger problem. The rights of trans men to have access to appropriate drugs simply does not mean the entire population must have a free-for-all on those drugs as well.

The idea should be that trans men and women have legal access to appropriate medication, and if that is met then that should automatically mean that they have equality with each other. People getting charged for illegal possession is a sideshow. The system of prescription medicine already exists for the exact function of getting people the drugs that they need, whilst not giving them to those that don't. If you get a major punishment for having illegal androgens but not one for illegal oestrogens, it should not matter at all for equality between trans men and women - assuming the system is working properly.

There are of course a lot of potential problems in terms of whether trans people ARE getting appropriate medication: whether the services are reasonably available, cheap, etc. and failures in these may lead to them getting illegal drugs on their own initiative. But those problems should be fixed at source, rather than with a bodged workaround that effectively argues that bodybuilders are disposable. That answer is also better for trans men and women, because it means they will be receiving proper medical oversight rather than dosing themselves up on the sly without expert medical input.

The UK ain't a walk in the park for trans people last I heard -- the wait time for an appointment was, what, eighteen months?
Yes, that is what happens when the government doesn't fund services properly. Or as the Conservatives call it, "NHS efficiency" and is a pattern across the whole system for pretty much all non-urgent care currently, trans or not. There is also the rather invidious issue of geographic inequality, so it may depend on where someone lives. But rich people can go private and sort it all out much faster, so from the Tory government's standpoint everything's okay. The NHS says it plans to bring wait times down for trans specialists to under four months. We'll see.
 
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stroopwafel

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Why would anyone want to become a man? Ok women are the fairer sex and endlessly intriguing and all that but add testosterone and suddenly you have bald spots, aggression, demanding sex drive but not the luxury of choice, odor and hair in funny places. If you really think about it being a man fucking sucks. Though I'm glad I'm not transgender b/c someone once told me ''it's good that you are not transgender b/c you would be one ugly woman''. Ellen Page always looked a bit androgynous. Not seeing much of a difference between Ellen and Elliot tbh.
 

Agema

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If you really think about it being a man fucking sucks.
Sort of.

Life is a long journey of pain, struggle, frustration and anyone who thinks they aren't going to deal with that by the bucketload is just unrealistic. The best measure of ourselves is how we overcome adversity and cope with our suffering. The eternal tendency is to look at others and think they have it better, and all too often it's just the usual misconception that the grass is greener on the other side - other people just have different problems which we don't appreciate so much because we don't suffer from them.

But in practice most people also find a great deal of joy and fun in life as well, and as the last sands of time fall, it will be those who have developed their internal positivity and fortitude who look back with satisfaction at their lives rather than woe.
 

Eacaraxe

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The rights of trans men to have access to appropriate drugs simply does not mean the entire population must have a free-for-all on those drugs as well.
This is the core issue. It's a "pick a lane" situation.

...The system of prescription medicine already exists for the exact function of getting people the drugs that they need, whilst not giving them to those that don't...
Our current system either works, or it doesn't. If it works as you claim, descheduling androgens should be sufficient to prevent misuse -- and for that matter, black and grey market estrogens, or any number of other pharmaceutical products, wouldn't be an issue either.

...assuming the system is working properly.
Insert Daenerys smirk gif here.

But those problems should be fixed at source, rather than with a bodged workaround that effectively argues that bodybuilders are disposable.
This goes right back to what we've been arguing about for two pages and it's why I brought it up. Prohibition doesn't work. Not for alcohol, not for weed, clearly not for opioids, or any other recreational, lifestyle, or performance-enhancing drug. Keeping anabolic steroids scheduled hasn't, and won't, solve the problem, and worse, it leaves individuals who would seek them vulnerable to scams, untested or harmful counterfeit products, or worse.

And it harms trans men as unintended, but still very real, consequence.

The social and financial incentives for the behavior have to be attacked. And yes, that means collegiate and professional athletics, the insane amount of money that flies around those industries, and the media and cross-industry representation of collegiate and professional athletics. You want teens and young adults to stop popping pills and shooting up to be like LeBron? Attack the millions the IOC, NBA, FIBA, merchandisers, and media make off LeBron's image.

Hmm. There's also a financial and social benefit for Page in keeping quiet and not coming out.
Does it outweigh that of coming out, though? The media landscape today is far different from what it was ten years ago, and earned media and viral content commands far more power now than it does then. Lest we forget, those two phenomena are what landed Trump in office, by way of comparison.

And your post seemed to be casting aspersions about Page's personal motivations-- again gelling with that tired old right-wing trope-- rather than directed towards the media circus.
...and the capacity of talent, and agencies, to capitalize on the media circus. Because these issues are interdependent and feed upon one another.

....are you seriously making the argument that LGBTQ people should moderate their behaviour and keep quiet in order to avoid the ire of straight people? This is another age-old trope, which has been used for decades to shift the blame for homophobia from the perpetrator to the target.
We're not in the Stonewall days any more. The best metric one might use to demonstrate LGBTQ acceptance in practice are hate crime rates, and sure, those have spiked since Trump took office. Even accounting for that, the trendline is still down from before Obama took office, indicating the phenomenon we're witnessing is reactionaries' last gasp which requires a fundamentally different policy response (proper law enforcement) than sweeping legislative and juridical solutions that have largely already occurred.

Yes, political movements do in fact need to evolve to stay relevant and find the most-efficacious route to achieve normative gains.
 

Kae

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Why would anyone want to become a man? Ok women are the fairer sex and endlessly intriguing and all that but add testosterone and suddenly you have bald spots, aggression, demanding sex drive but not the luxury of choice, odor and hair in funny places. If you really think about it being a man fucking sucks. Though I'm glad I'm not transgender b/c someone once told me ''it's good that you are not transgender b/c you would be one ugly woman''. Ellen Page always looked a bit androgynous. Not seeing much of a difference between Ellen and Elliot tbh.
All existence is pain.
 

Buyetyen

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Please do not carry grievances between threads.
So, this thread was about Elliot Page. Is it now just another thread of Eacaraxe screaming at everybody?
 

Silvanus

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Does it outweigh that of coming out, though? The media landscape today is far different from what it was ten years ago, and earned media and viral content commands far more power now than it does then. Lest we forget, those two phenomena are what landed Trump in office, by way of comparison.
Indeed, earned media & viral content landed Trump in office-- on a wave of sentiment from those who're strongly socially conservative & hostile to LGBTQ causes. If you think people are just "over it", I can assure you from first-hand experience that's not the case. A trans figure in the public eye is more likely to encounter threats of violence, online denigration, and potentially real-life violence.

People don't just invite all that onto themselves in order to garner some positive headlines from sympathetic press outlets. They do it to be true to themselves. The former belief is nothing but a tired old right-wing trope used to dismiss the importance of coming out and to minimise the dangers LGBTQ people face.

We're not in the Stonewall days any more. The best metric one might use to demonstrate LGBTQ acceptance in practice are hate crime rates, and sure, those have spiked since Trump took office. Even accounting for that, the trendline is still down from before Obama took office, indicating the phenomenon we're witnessing is reactionaries' last gasp which requires a fundamentally different policy response (proper law enforcement) than sweeping legislative and juridical solutions that have largely already occurred.

Yes, political movements do in fact need to evolve to stay relevant and find the most-efficacious route to achieve normative gains.
This is a long-winded way of saying you don't believe it's that big a deal anymore. Fuck that. The fact that we've improved since 1969 doesn't mean there isn't a fucking awful incidence of violence, disownment, homelessness, and stigma to deal with.

If your approach to dealing with homophobia is to tone-police LGBTQ people, then your approach is misdirected bollocks. You may as well be arguing that black musicians shouldn't swear so much in rap, because it validates the opinions that racists hold about them, and anyway, "we're not in the Jim Crow days anymore". No.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Indeed, earned media & viral content landed Trump in office-- on a wave of sentiment from those who're strongly socially conservative & hostile to LGBTQ causes.
Dare we ask who generated and perpetuated that wave of sentiment for profit.

A trans figure in the public eye is more likely to encounter threats of violence, online denigration, and potentially real-life violence.
"A trans figure in the public eye" is also more likely to live in seven-figure estates in gated neighborhoods, with their own security and security systems, enjoy the privilege of incredibly well-funded and responsive emergency services, and have the megaphone of the press, are they not? You think someone like Page, or post-fame Cox, would be counted among the 60-odd percent of transgender people who report harassment, abuse, or assault from law enforcement when trying to report (hate-based or otherwise) crimes against them?

You think Cox got an article about her on the BBC because she's trans, or because she's famous? Which is odd you want to bring that up, considering Cox was out and an outspoken activist before she hit it big on OITNB.

All of which is rather amazing, considering my point was the erasure of trans men and denial of trans men's issues to begin with, and despite this you still couldn't help but bring yourself to push trans men out of the conversation.

This is a long-winded way of saying you don't believe it's that big a deal anymore.
Feel free to quit putting words in my mouth and trying to poison the well any time.

You may as well be arguing that black musicians shouldn't swear so much in rap, because it validates the opinions that racists hold about them, and anyway, "we're not in the Jim Crow days anymore". No.
Come into a BLM thread where I'm posting and say that shit. You'll find out real fuckin' fast how consistent I am in my assertion political movements have to adapt to changing circumstances, legal landscapes, societal values and norms.
 
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