Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

[SilentPony]

SNIP

Oh man of the past, for whom Memory is a software update not yet released, fear not! We of the future got tired of people making shit up to desperately backpaddle and justify factual holes they hadn't seen, so we invented Memory. Memory is a brilliant new app that allows us future humans to remember, recall and restate things that had previously been stated. For example if say someone where to remember those fake hearings did include allegations of voter fraud:

Lawmakers hear bombshell allegations of Georgia election fraud

Thursday, a Georgia Senate Judiciary subcommittee heard new jaw-dropping allegations of alleged election fraud in the state from several people including President Donald Trump's attorney, Rudy Giuliani.

www.cbs46.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/07/trump-touts-misleading-video-proof-georgia-voter-fraud/

Or remembering that the Single-Mark consipracy theory was already debunked almost a month ago:

No evidence over 95,000 ballots in Georgia were only marked for Biden

As votes were being counted in the presidential election, false posts swirled on social media suggesting voting irregularities around how ballots were marked in Georgia’s tight presidential race.

apnews.com

We can attribute this recollection to the Memory upgrade we future people have. But worry not, oh man of the past! You may yet be able to uninstall your Critical Un-Thinking engines and install Memory! I highly recommend you do so, for it saved us future folk a lot of embarrassment when we were proved critically wrong over and over and over and over and over.

 

[Houseman]

No evidence over 95,000 ballots in Georgia were only marked for Biden

As votes were being counted in the presidential election, false posts swirled on social media suggesting voting irregularities around how ballots were marked in Georgia’s tight presidential race.

apnews.com

We can attribute this recollection to the Memory upgrade we future people have. But worry not, oh man of the past! You may yet be able to uninstall your Critical Un-Thinking engines and install Memory! I highly recommend you do so, for it saved us future folk a lot of embarrassment when we were proved critically wrong over and over and over and over and over.

Actually read the AP article, it has the numbers right there. How many people did or didn't vote down-ballot can be estimated by simple arithmetic.

 

[Agema]

I think the Republican party is currently the Conservative party.

What are they conserving, and are they the right things to conserve, though?

We have a similar issue in the UK: what is the "conservative" (even by explicit name) party actually conserving? Because it seems to me that they are mostly tearing down traditional institutions and practices of the nation, and covering a lot of that under populist nationalism. It seems often a huge, radical, neoliberal wall with some conservative wallpaper slapped over the surface. Your entire way of life gets washed away, but you feel good because you can wave some flags and feel proud about WW2.

Balanced budget amendment;
The US out of the empire building business;
Immigration very much curtailed.

And this is perhaps the sort of thing I mean: the latter two of those are very much US traditions. The USA has been empire building since about 1850, and welcomed immigration since inception. American became great in large part on the back of aggressively asserting its power over bits of the world it didn't own, itself fed in large part by a huge influx of population to power its economic, political and military might. In the mid-19th century, the USA had a population of about 30 million. By comparable growth rates to Europe, it would now be ~100 million without immigration. It developed and maintained that power in the 20th century by standing up against regimes that would have unravelled much of its economic power and influence, and setting up international systems that reflected its beliefs and advantages.

 

[gorfias]

What are they conserving, and are they the right things to conserve, though?

We have a similar issue in the UK: what is the "conservative" (even by explicit name) party actually conserving? Because it seems to me that they are mostly tearing down traditional institutions and practices of the nation, and covering a lot of that under populist nationalism. It seems often a huge, radical, neoliberal wall with some conservative wallpaper slapped over the surface. Your entire way of life gets washed away, but you feel good because you can wave some flags and feel proud about WW2.



And this is perhaps the sort of thing I mean: the latter two of those are very much US traditions. The USA has been empire building since about 1850, and welcomed immigration since inception. American became great in large part on the back of aggressively asserting its power over bits of the world it didn't own, itself fed in large part by a huge influx of population to power its economic, political and military might. In the mid-19th century, the USA had a population of about 30 million. By comparable growth rates to Europe, it would now be ~100 million without immigration. It developed and maintained that power in the 20th century by standing up against regimes that would have unravelled much of its economic power and influence, and setting up international systems that reflected its beliefs and advantages.

This is why I was kind of wishy washy with my labels. They are in flux. The Republican party is trying to Conserve things such as private property, gun rights, free speech rights, ... what used to be "liberal". "Liberals" want change and the Democratic party is in favor of changing what we have rights to. Private property, speech, gun rights mean much less than economic rights, redistribution, standard of living guarantees, safety of threatened minority demographic groups, health care coverage security, etc.
More so, there is a realignment that is happening. The 1% now prefer the Democratic party. The labor classes, non-government union workers are realizing the Democratic party does not represent them and they feel betrayed. So, against the will of Romney/Rockefeller Republicans, the Trumpsters tend to be populist Nationalists and are trying to pull the Party in this direction.

I can empathize with the Democratic party rank and file though. I think they hosed Bernie twice. And, for instance, Nancy Pelosi has more or less admitted she turned down $2 Trillion in COVID relief for political reasons under Trump, only to agree to $1 Trillion for incoming Biden. If I were someone unable to make ends meet, losing my business or home, facing eviction, having to get into multi hour long waits for food... I'd be like those betrayed McCain voters when he tried to pass another immigration amnesty rather than secure the border... only maybe almost even more upset.

 

[Houseman]

News on the Supreme Court case: Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Utah file motion to intervene, as plaintiffs. That means they want to join as the injured parties, as opposed to just patting Texas on the back and being additional counsel.

Also, live courtroom audio, Trump v. The Wisconsin Elections Commission et al
This is an Evidentiary Hearing

 

[SilentPony]

SNIP

Oh man of the past, for whom reading the entire article is a faux pas, fear not! We of the future have moved past the social embarrassment of knowing things and have since adopted a position being informed rather than ignorant, reading the entire article rather that Ctrl + F searching for a single number and saying it proves a point without context.

The AP article does in fact list 95,000 Biden only no down ballot votes. It also lists that the source is the Trump campaign. It also lists that the source is lying, or very very very misrepresenting the numbers.
Instead, the figure refers to the fact that Biden won almost 100,000 more votes in Georgia than Democratic Senate candidate Jon Ossoff. But it’s faulty to assume that all of those votes must have been on ballots for Biden only, ignoring that some voters in the state selected Biden for president but didn’t adhere to a strictly party-line vote for the Senate

As of early Nov. 12, there were 4,992,420 votes counted in the presidential race in Georgia. While the total number of votes fluctuates across other races — since, indeed, some people don’t cast a vote for every race — there were 4,945,792 votes counted in the Senate race between Republican Sen. David Perdue and Ossoff.

That’s a difference of 46,628 total votes — or almost half of what’s being lied.

Take heed oh man of the past, for this is what is called knowing things and I will admit it is an unfair advantage we in the future have over temporally challenged individuals.

 

[Avnger]

News on the Supreme Court case: Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Utah file motion to intervene, as plaintiffs. That means they want to join as the injured parties, as opposed to just patting Texas on the back and being additional counsel.

 

[Houseman]

But it’s faulty to assume that all of those votes must have been on ballots for Biden only, ignoring that some voters in the state selected Biden for president but didn’t adhere to a strictly party-line vote for the Senate

That's why I said " How many people did or didn't vote down-ballot can be estimated by simple arithmetic. "
Key word "estimated".

 

[crimson5pheonix]

That's why I said " How many people did or didn't vote down-ballot can be estimated by simple arithmetic. "
Key word "estimated".

And the arithmetic you presented was wrong.

But I can't fault anyone for that, as a mathematician, basic math is the hardest.

 

[Houseman]

And the arithmetic you presented was wrong.

I didn't present any arithmetic. I just said that "they've had a higher percentage of "single-mark ballots", where "people" only voted for the presidency, and for nothing else, than any other year."

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I didn't present any arithmetic. I just said that "they've had a higher percentage of "single-mark ballots", where "people" only voted for the presidency, and for nothing else, than any other year."

Using a fraudulent table as your source, yes.

 

[Houseman]

Using a fraudulent table as your source, yes.

You mean the image that I linked?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You mean the image that I linked?

Yes, that fraudulent table.

 

[Houseman]

Yes, that fraudulent table.

Well, that's a graph, not a table, and the AP article makes no comment on the graph I posted above, nor is it affiliated with what the AP article is even referencing, because the graph I posted was from official state data.

So you're either not paying attention or you're calling official state data fraudulent.

 

[SilentPony]

And the arithmetic you presented was wrong.

I only know 1 person who voted for Trump. Based on this sampling size, and using basic arithmetic I'm assuming he voted illegally 74,223,029 times. I call it Alternative Math.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well, that's a graph, not a table, and the AP article makes no comment on the graph I posted above, nor is it affiliated with what the AP article is even referencing, because the graph I posted was from official state data.

So you're either not paying attention or you're calling official state data fraudulent.

Well let's do some simple arithmetic then.

georgia election results - Google Search

Georgia presidential race: 4997716 votes
Georgia senate race between Perdue and Ossoff: 4952175
Difference: 45541

And, if my basic math skills still serves me well, 45541 < 95000

 

[Houseman]

Georgia presidential race: 4997716 votes
Georgia senate race between Perdue and Ossoff: 4952175
Difference: 45541

And, if my basic math skills still serves me well, 45541 < 95000

When did I say anything about the 95000 number?

 

[SilentPony]

So you're either not paying attention or you're calling official state data fraudulent.

Oh man of the past for whom anonymous Reddit is a source of information, fear not! We here in the future have realized Reddit isn't a news source, its a community of trolls, titty shots and gaming complaints. Your graph was from r/TheDonald, a notoriously stupid and incorrect subreddit filled with at best sub-literate liars, fraudsters and double liars.

But don't worry, we here in the future know TheDonald isn't smart enough their fake graphs would require knowing individual-level information from ballots, not aggregation information about ballots cast in each race, and that that information isn't available to the public, and isn't released for state security and anonymous voting regulations. So what you have is a fake graph made by stupid people to prove a fake story, already disproven, for the sake of other stupid people who are too stupid to know how stupid they really are.

But fear not man of the past! The future is TheDonald free and we are better for it.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

When did I say anything about the 95000 number?

The table.

 

[Houseman]

The table.

Where in the graph, that you call a "table" (because you don't know what "table" means), is the number 95000 contained? Please take a screenshot and circle it in red so that it's obvious to everyone where it is.