Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

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Houseman

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Allegedly: a Dominion machine in use (you can see "Dominion" logo on the screen), showing how a user can manually scan in a batch of ballots, or even blank ballots, and then manually override or fill in the choices, erasing, switching, or adding a vote.

Also shows the "discard" and rescan process that the "drunk blonde" woman talked about.



 
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Kwak

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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Nothing like a bit of opportunistic, performative moral high ground.

They've got a point, in that sort of talk really is not helpful. Nevertheless, there have been one hell of a lot of comments "unbecoming of an elected official" over the last few years, and I doubt you could have found these guys putting out so much as a disapproving statement for love nor money.
She was responding to the death and lynching threats she was getting.
 

Silvanus

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What's preventing you from at least entertaining the possibility that they have a legitimate grievance?
Not only do I not believe they have a legitimate grievance, I also do not believe that THEY believe they have a legitimate grievance. Ordinary Republican supporters, poll-watchers, and even some of the Representatives believe they do, but not Trump, Giuliani, Ellis, or the rest of the driving personalities behind this effort.

The reason for the former is simply lack of evidence that is demonstrable or non-circumstantial. They have reams and reams of affidavits and statements, which amount to little more than claims from partisan speakers with little understanding of the process. Nothing actually solid, nothing to show. Claims and statements are a dime a dozen. There's a reason they've stripped actual claims of fraud from the lawsuits: they don't want to have to meet the bar of proof required.

The reason for the latter is twofold: firstly, the relief they're seeking. If they were concerned about disenfranchisement, they would not be seeking the relief of hundreds of thousands of ballots from valid, eligible voters being tossed out. If Sidney Powell was concerned about disenfranchisement, she would not have requested that states simply disregard the voting process altogether and simply select their electors for Trump, voters-be-damned.

And the second reason is the fundraising effort, which purports to pay for the Trump team's legal fees and fund "recounts", but actually just funnels money towards paying off Trump's own campaign debt. This has convinced me its straightforwardly a scam aimed at his own supporters, to get him out of debt.

So, ordinary voters believe there's a legitimate grievance, because that's the impression they've been given by a public figure they trust. And that public figure is using it to wring money from them in a cynical money-grubbing scam. That's the kind of man he is; he respects his own supporters least of all.
 

Hades

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If Biden did not win legally, and I think he did not, and was aided in doing so by a bi-partisan elite that selected Biden over Trump for their own reasons, what's the point of voting? They have the power to just put whoever they want in, regardless of how I vote.
We'll see.
Do you see a bipartian elite supporting Biden? Because I sure see the Republican side of the elite zealously, even slavishly support Trump even now he tries to subvert democracy in a desperate attempt to remain in office.

This ''bipartisan coup'' would have needed the support of Trump's very own cronies to get off the ground. The postal office is under direct control of Trump and one of his corrupt cronies. Why would they work with the Democrats to install Biden?
 
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gorfias

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What evidence would you need to convince you that Biden won legally?
I don't think it can be done. The stats, including that Trump is the 1st POTUS to lose re-election in 150 years after gaining votes create a rebuttable presumption that the election was stolen. So, team Biden would then rebut the presumption... but they are not. They're not calling for hand count audits. PA signature envelopes being destroyed... so that the envelope signatures could be matched to the ballot signatures. https://www.inquirer.com/politics/e...lots-supreme-court-philadelphia-20200921.html . So now, before USSC is a lawsuit that is stating the issue isn't catching enough voter fraud to over-turn the election but to show the process itself fails to pass Constitutional muster.

We'll see. Biden may pull this off. Republicans take losing well. Too well. He will always seem to me to be a crook who had the office stolen for him. I'll behave if this happens. But the bigger issue for me is I think Republicans helped make this happen. They prefer a system that can be rigged to a system where the people may elect a candidate that is not the candidate of the oligarchy. No worries. Biden's Dad told him that the Government is not here to solve your problems but to understand them. Awesome.

Do you see a bipartian elite supporting Biden? Because I sure see the Republican side of the elite zealously, even slavishly support Trump even now he tries to subvert democracy in a desperate attempt to remain in office.

This ''bipartisan coup'' would have needed the support of Trump's very own cronies to get off the ground. The postal office is under direct control of Trump and one of his corrupt cronies. Why would they work with the Democrats to install Biden?
USPS is a government labor force, like school teachers. Who tend to be Democrats.

Example:

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wir...rkers-union-endorses-biden-president-72380814

And plenty of RINO's are telling Trump to just let Biden win.

I state above though, that yes, "I think Republicans helped make this happen. They prefer a system that can be rigged to a system where the people may elect a candidate that is not the candidate of the oligarchy." Unless fixed, this sort of thing makes me think it a waste of time to vote... or even pay attention to politics. What's the point if they're just going to seat a candidate a ruling elite want? And that ruling elite's primary goal is to turn my country into an impoverished, disease ridden, burning authoritarian 3rd world Hellscape?
 
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Hades

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I don't think it can be done. The stats, including that Trump is the 1st POTUS to lose re-election in 150 years after gaining votes create a rebuttable presumption that the election was stolen
But the thing about American politics is that its explicitly not about the number of votes a candidate gets. Its about the number of voters they get in specific locations. Getting a majority of millions in one place doesn't help you win the election if you lose two places by maybe a couple 100 of votes. You can have millions of more votes than your opponent only to lose the election because your rival has maybe 400 more votes in two small states. That's the whole reason Trump even became President to begin with. Clinton won the election handily as far as votes went but Trump just happen to perform better in some random locations. And Trump even getting a lot of those swing state had been by the skin of his teeth. It was always going to be a gamble whether he was going to win them again or not, a gamble that failed to pay off.

And under this system it does not matter if Trump gained in some states. It does not matter if he strengthened his position in Florida or Texas if he declined in Arizona, Georgia or Pensylvania. Trump might have legitimately increased his support in some states but ultimately failed to do so in swing states that he required to win.

We'll see. Biden may pull this off. Republicans take losing well. Too well.
They don't. They don't take losing well at all. That's their whole problem. They took losing to Obama so extremely poorly that they spend eight years bitching, moaning, crying and stealing court judges just because they couldn't stomach losing to a Democrat. Or because they couldn't stomach losing to a black man.

And it only became more extreme as time went on. They now take losing so poorly that they'd rather depose democracy itself rather than admit that their openly corrupt candidate lost the election. Even those that aren't actively complicit don't do enough to challenge Trump on this nonsense, proving how poorly the Republican party is able to handle defeat.
But the bigger issue for me is I think Republicans helped make this happen. They prefer a system that can be rigged to a system where the people may elect a candidate that is not the candidate of the oligarchy
But of course. No Republican would ever get elected in a system where people may pick a candidate that's not of the oligarchy. That's why they so passionately support the electoral college or dabble in voter suppression. They know that they simply do not have the numbers to win an election without artificial factors keeping them in the game. Trump himself would also reject a system that can't be rigged and that would open the floor to non oligarchy candidates because then he himself would not be able to win anymore.
 
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gorfias

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But the thing about American politics is that its explicitly not about the number of votes a candidate gets. Its about the number of voters they get in specific locations. Getting a majority of millions in one place doesn't help you win the election if you lose two places by maybe a couple 100 of votes. You can have millions of more votes than your opponent only to lose the election because your rival has maybe 400 more votes in two small states. That's the whole reason Trump even became President to begin with. Clinton won the election handily as far as votes went but Trump just happen to perform better in some random locations. And Trump even getting a lot of those swing state had been by the skin of his teeth. It was always going to be a gamble whether he was going to win them again or not, a gamble that failed to pay off.

And under this system it does not matter if Trump gained in some states. It does not matter if he strengthened his position in Florida or Texas if he declined in Arizona, Georgia or Pensylvania. Trump might have legitimately increased his support in some states but ultimately failed to do so in swing states that he required to win.


They don't. They don't take losing well at all. That's their whole problem. They took losing to Obama so extremely poorly that they spend eight years bitching, moaning, crying and stealing court judges just because they couldn't stomach losing to a Democrat. Or because they couldn't stomach losing to a black man.

And it only became more extreme as time went on. They now take losing so poorly that they'd rather depose democracy itself rather than admit that their openly corrupt candidate lost the election. Even those that aren't actively complicit don't do enough to challenge Trump on this nonsense, proving how poorly the Republican party is able to handle defeat.


But of course. No Republican would ever get elected in a system where people may pick a candidate that's not of the oligarchy. That's why they so passionately support the electoral college or dabble in voter suppression. They know that they simply do not have the numbers to win an election without artificial factors keeping them in the game. Trump himself would also reject a system that can't be rigged and that would open the floor to non oligarchy candidates because then he himself would not be able to win anymore.
Your first statement is the start of a conversation, not it's end. And my stat is only one of many improbabilities.

Your second I have to ask, how many cities have Republicans rioting, killing peole and burning local stores down? I'd link the most recent Ann Coulter column here but she's pretty despised in this forum. I don't think it would be helpful. I do state she writes of a number of recent times irregularities resulted in Dems winning seats that she states should have gone to Republicans. And no riots.
 

Thaluikhain

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Your second I have to ask, how many cities have Republicans rioting, killing peole and burning local stores down? I'd link the most recent Ann Coulter column here but she's pretty despised in this forum. I don't think it would be helpful. I do state she writes of a number of recent times irregularities resulted in Dems winning seats that she states should have gone to Republicans. And no riots.
Riots, as they say are the language of the unheard. Republicans don't feel unheard by their government, believing (generally falsely) that the PotUS is on their side. They are, however, killing people all the time, in various ways, that's inherent (if sometimes something of an outlier) to the ideology.
 
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gorfias

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Riots, as they say are the language of the unheard. Republicans don't feel unheard by their government, believing (generally falsely) that the PotUS is on their side. They are, however, killing people all the time, in various ways, that's inherent (if sometimes something of an outlier) to the ideology.
I think the Republican party is currently the Conservative party. If you want to conserve, chances are, you already have something to conserve, while the Democratic party is the "liberal" party of change. Though, these terms and parties are in flux. So, those who want to conserve are not going to be the ones setting cities on fire for their own self interests.
Each party has a very large wing that is NOT being heard. I love watching Jimmy Dore as he critiques the "liberal" party for things such as Biden's recent speech about not solving problems, but being understanding. The guy was apoplectic.
What would it take for me to think I am heard?
Greater election security;
End removing voting rights from legal citizens (such as Felons that have served their time).
Term limits;
Balanced budget amendment;
The US out of the empire building business;
Immigration very much curtailed.
Not gonna happen any time soon.
 

Hades

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Your first statement is the start of a conversation, not it's end. And my stat is only one of many improbabilities.

Your second I have to ask, how many cities have Republicans rioting, killing peole and burning local stores down? I'd link the most recent Ann Coulter column here but she's pretty despised in this forum. I don't think it would be helpful. I do state she writes of a number of recent times irregularities resulted in Dems winning seats that she states should have gone to Republicans. And no riots.
The Black Live Matter protests and the riots that come with them aren't really inherently anti Republican. The cause is police murders that repeatedly go completely undressed. And while Trump so obviously siding with the police exacerbates the issue it should be noted that these riots also happened under Obama.

And lets not pretend the Republicans are innocent little flowers about this. They went into a government building fully armed during their lockdown protests and also tried to kidnap and murder a governor.
 

Buyetyen

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I don't think it can be done.
Why are you coming into other people's discussions if you have no intention of ever admitting that you could be wrong? Especially when all of your "evidence" is based on conjecture?
 

Thaluikhain

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I think the Republican party is currently the Conservative party.
Nominally, in practice they tend to be more reactionary, wanting to conserve an idealised golden age that didn't actually happen.

I am making sweepoing generalisations, but that's because there's only two options (or three if you include "non-viable" as a third) to lump people in.

What would it take for me to think I am heard?
Greater election security;
...
Immigration very much curtailed.
Ah, but the Republican party was making a lot of noise about both those issues. Not so much the others you mentioned, and not so much actually doing anything about them (the first being a non-existent problem they have hallucinated into being), but they can make their supporters feels they've been heard on those issues. Trump went into the last election whipping up his supporters about his wall and Muslim ban. He walked both of those back, but he was definitely telling people he's heard them on that.

Not gonna happen any time soon.
On that we are in agreement. Well, I might say that the US isn't in the empire building business they way I think you mean, but that's due to incompetence and short term thinking rather than lack of trying. Keep making the same mistakes over and over, only the people doing so don't suffer for them so they aren't exactly mistakes.

Hey, did you all know this is the most replied to thread on this forum? By a fair margin too. On to 200 eh?
The topic is a bit more important than a lot of the stuff we talk about, though.
 
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SilentPony

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I'm not really sure where to post this, but fuck it,


The Democrats are just run by the Alzheimer's ward it seems.
Yeah that is a major problem. Not that the GOP are better, but we need to make a max age for public service. I'm tired of these 70+ old fucks determining laws on internet privacy, revenge porn and social media when they still haven't adjusted to more than 3 TV channels.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Order fake ballots, and put them through. They wouldn't be recognized in a recount.
Order fake ballots and shred the Trump ones so that the ones the algorithm flips wouldn't be detected in a hand recount.
Also, nobody is saying this is part of one individual's master plan. It could be multiple actors working independently and attacking from different angles, as it were.
Why would they be worried about a recount? There wasn't even a recount for the 2000 election that was won by hundreds of votes. Expanding your cheating plan only invites the chances of getting caught along with bringing more people in which one of them will probably talk. At least the voting machine conspiracy in theory can work with very few people being in on it, plus polling is done for you so you would know how much votes need to be flipped. All this other fraud stuff is pretty asinine.
 

SilentPony

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I would point out they're only concerned with the presidential vote, not the down ballot votes. No one is in Pennsylvania calling for judges not to be appointed because the ballots cast were fraudulent. No one is in Georgia saying Amendment 2 for Sovereign Immunity didn't actually pass because 100,000 ballots were illegal.
If the Republicans actually cared about "voter fraud" and "stuffed ballots" they would be calling for entire states to shut down amidst massive criminal conduct on the highest levels, not just to stop the certification of presidential election ballots. Imagine you had actual evidence of voter fraud, all the ramifications it would mean. No judge could ever be trusted to be valid, no senator or congressman, no proposition or state amendment could ever be verified. Who's in on it? Who knew what? Who paid for it? Judges, politicians, draft writers for bills, poll watchers, ballot printers, counters, coordinators. Fuck using Rico Laws you could get thousands if not more people with a single fraudulent ballot because of all the infrastructure needed if donor money was used.

But they don't care about that because they don't really believe in the fraud. Its all theater to raise money, set up Trump to be president in exile and GOP King Maker and get as many pardons as he can sign.
 

Houseman

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No one is in Pennsylvania calling for judges not to be appointed because the ballots cast were fraudulent. No one is in Georgia saying Amendment 2 for Sovereign Immunity didn't actually pass because 100,000 ballots were illegal.
Because they didn't find evidence of fraud for those votes. You'd know this is you had been watching the hearings.

In fact, they've had a higher percentage of "single-mark ballots", where "people" only voted for the presidency, and for nothing else, than any other year.

So that's why.
 
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