Neil Druckman tries to mobilise TLOU 2 fans to vote for it for player choice in The Game Awards Player vote category

Gyrobot

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So? The fact that TLOU2 winning overwhelmingly over others shows that games can be art even in trying times. It proves that you should be focus on being relevant to the social issues at hand instead of hiding in some escapism fantasy. It is the ultimate expression of Go Woke, Become Bespoke
 

CriticalGaming

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So? The fact that TLOU2 winning overwhelmingly over others shows that games can be art even in trying times. It proves that you should be focus on being relevant to the social issues at hand instead of hiding in some escapism fantasy. It is the ultimate expression of Go Woke, Become Bespoke
In what way does TLOU2 do anything socially relevant?

It is literally a revenge fantasy plot.

And i dont see how a game wouldnt be art regardless of the "times" in which it releases. So i dont see how that matters either.
 

Houseman

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In what way does TLOU2 do anything socially relevant?
Maybe it's attempting to teach people not to loot stores and burn things (BLM) because of the cycle of violence? People love it because it's anti-BLM?
Or maybe because it's starring a woman?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Hmm, 11 pages in this thread, lets see what could possibly be this interesting that this thread has been going on for a month.

EDIT:
473386__safe_solo_simple+background_animated_floppy+ears_white+background_wat_bon+bon_sweetie+...gif
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So? The fact that TLOU2 winning overwhelmingly over others shows that games can be art even in trying times. It proves that you should be focus on being relevant to the social issues at hand instead of hiding in some escapism fantasy. It is the ultimate expression of Go Woke, Become Bespoke
ROFL you really think that's all art is?

Some commentary upon a present socio-political issue?

It may inform it but the most enduring art has tended to say more about the nature of humanity than it does about current socio-political issues.

Most performances of Romeo and Juliet these day don't bother with the 1 main political joke in it because it's so irrelevant.

I think it was Wilde or Dickens who on his essays on criticism said it's the act of a short sighted critic to judge a work on if he agrees or disagrees with the politics and if it hits some modern talking point of the day for those points may well be irrelevant within a month or even less. Better to look more at the nature of humanity and try to look of the reasons behind social issues rather than the issues themselves.

Is Romeo and Juliet not art anymore?

TLOU2 didn't win quite so overwhelmingly as people may want it to have done and it lost the public vote where the public got a say lol.

At the end of the day you could argue that gaming is becoming like other arts. Where it's just a few gate keepers huffing their own farts who decide what is truly to be considered art and what is not. Which is kind of the joke Banksy pulled with his self destructing picture because it was bought by a person for almost nothing and it's value was suddenly said to exist because of an art establishment who then wanted to get hold of it and offered a lot of money.

To think Fantasy Escapism can't tell us anything about the world or comment upon it is silly.


Does the fact he's half White and half Black suddenly mean Star Trek wasn't commenting upon racism?

Would it be somehow different if he were an Elf or Dwarf?

The amount of themes and ideas I could talk about present in a game about a flying girl and her magic cat says otherwise about the nature of art. I really do find it quite shocking that people only seemingly see value in works bringing up present socio-political talking points. It's not Tump references and dissing Fox news that actually works as part of the theme in the show the Magicians. It's the journey of the characters and the conclusion and what it all can be said to mean.
 

Casual Shinji

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Sadly i think The Last of Us 2 is winning even among some of the public because it looks good. Shiny graphics win over people who dont know any better.

This is one of those cases in which the general gaming public doesnt play a lot of shit, let alone pays enough attention to things like story and mechanics to know any better.

The same "gamers" who buy Madden every year and fuel microtransactions because thats just what you dont in those games. People who think Call of Duty is brilliant because it is so pretty looking.
How would this be any different if Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Ghost of Tsushima had won though? Would them winning NOT be a case of the prettiest game winning, or the most nostalgic, or the most big open-world?

If FF7R (which I think I can assume you like a whole lot) sweeped the awards, would you still think it's just shiny graphics winning people over who don't know any better? Maybe you would, but I find it telling that this kind of talk only arises when it regards a game the person in question doesn't like or thinks deserves to win anything.

The fact that you describe it winning with some of the public as 'them just not knowing any better' feels a little judgemental, to say the least. A lot of people who bought and loved FF7R, Ghost, or even Hades - THE critical darling - will still spend money on microtransactions just the same. Heck, some of them probably even loved TLoU2. And not because they didn't know any better, but because they knew what the liked, and that was it.

You seem to suggest some sort of hard line between people who loved TLoU2 and people who loved the other GOTY contenders a.k.a. "who know better", people who are "hardcore gamers" and people who pay for microtransactions, and that just isn't the case.
 

bluegate

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Sadly i think The Last of Us 2 is winning even among some of the public because it looks good. Shiny graphics win over people who dont know any better.

This is one of those cases in which the general gaming public doesnt play a lot of shit, let alone pays enough attention to things like story and mechanics to know any better.

The same "gamers" who buy Madden every year and fuel microtransactions because thats just what you dont in those games. People who think Call of Duty is brilliant because it is so pretty looking.

Graphics and looking real are big grabs to casual gamers and even middling gamers who might just vote on polls or whatever occasionally. Much like many gaming "Journalists" and "Reviewers" who simply half-ass their way through a game for work.
If there was some merit to this drivel you just posted, it would show in previous years' awards, wouldn't it?

People, "journalists" and "reviewers" would be wowed by simple pretty graphics in other years as well, wouldn't they? Call of Duty, or something similar, would actually be nominated and awarded lots of awards, wouldn't they?

But looking back at the top awardees that really isn't the case 🤷‍♂️
 

Casual Shinji

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If there was some merit to this drivel you just posted, it would show in previous years' awards, wouldn't it?

People, "journalists" and "reviewers" would be wowed by simple pretty graphics in other years as well, wouldn't they? Call of Duty, or something similar, would actually be nominated and awarded lots of awards, wouldn't they?

But looking back at the top awardees that really isn't the case 🤷‍♂️
In 2016 Overwatch beat Uncharted 4.

In 2017 Breath of the Wild beat Horizon: Zero Dawn.

Also, Fortnite and Minecraft utterly obliterate games like TLoU2 in terms of popularity. So yeah, the argument that the "casuals" and "bad, evil journos" just picked the prettiest game with their dumb brain doesn't hold much water. Not that there isn't a big problem with gaming journalism, but this extends to all games, not just the ones that the vocal side of the community deem unworthy.

It's funny every year; FF7R wins best musical score - 'YAY, well deserved!' TLoU2 wins best anything - 'Fuck you, the awards were rigged, Naughty Dog bought the awards!' And these people don't notice the glaring flaw in that.

And just as a reminder; Persona 5 was nominated for best RPG this year, eventhough it already won best RPG in 2017. So hey, maybe this whole awards thing is stupid overall, hm? Not just when TLoU2 wins, but also when Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, God of War, Disco Elysium, Sekiro, or Final Fantasy 7 Remake, Ghost of Tsushima, and Hades win.
 

CriticalGaming

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How would this be any different if Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Ghost of Tsushima had won though? Would them winning NOT be a case of the prettiest game winning, or the most nostalgic, or the most big open-world?
Well in the case of FF7, then the game was fun and wouldn't have won on graphical merits because while the main characters look good, much of that remake looks like low poly ass. TLOU2 is a much better looking game.

Ghosts however can certainly be filed as just as beautiful and artistic as anything TLOU2 did, hell Ghosts even does the circle of violence/revenge plot better because Jin's character has to make though decisions in which he either sticks to codes of honor or bails on that honor for the sake of defending his homeland and the people he cares about. It's a real arc, trying to ask real questions.

The fact that you describe it winning with some of the public as 'them just not knowing any better' feels a little judgemental, to say the least. A lot of people who bought and loved FF7R, Ghost, or even Hades - THE critical darling - will still spend money on microtransactions just the same. Heck, some of them probably even loved TLoU2. And not because they didn't know any better, but because they knew what the liked, and that was it.
That's certainly possible. I'm sure people who just play the game for shooty shooty bang bangs and realistic graphics love the shit out of that game. And i really don't find any issue with the average Joe loving the game for whatever reason.

My issue comes from Professionals who took that game and showered it with praise. Best story telling? Anyone who really took a critical eye to that story could point out loads of issues with the plot. The vast majority of events in TLOU2 happen because Naughty Dog deliberately change the characters in order to make the story happen. It's what is commonly referred to as an "idiot plot" or a plot that only happens because every character is an idiot.

Frankly this isn't even a case for FF7, my personal GOTY, getting all this praise. My issue is with a game that didn't deserve the praise, getting all the praise. Even Kotaku, who usually is part of the praising for games like TLOU called the awards out https://kotaku.com/games-made-under-crunch-conditions-don-t-deserve-best-1845863225

There were plenty of other more deserving games this year. Hades, Ghosts, Doom: Eternal, whatever your flavor is. Every catagory TLOU2 won, you could point at any of these games and say it deserves it more. IF you are a critic, after all their job is to be CRITICAL of the media.

You seem to suggest some sort of hard line between people who loved TLoU2 and people who loved the other GOTY contenders a.k.a. "who know better", people who are "hardcore gamers" and people who pay for microtransactions, and that just isn't the case.
Not really. I just use it as a reminder to myself that not everyone who plays games, looks at them the same way that people on this forum do. Every single one of us on this forum look at games differently than the general gaming public. By the sheer factor of us even being here. So it's hard to really fault people who rate games highly.

Again my issue is with the critics, the people responsible for the actual awards, not doing their damn jobs.
 
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BrawlMan

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Ghosts however can certainly be filed as just as beautiful and artistic as anything TLOU2 did, hell Ghosts even does the circle of violence/revenge plot better because Jin's character has to make though decisions in which he either sticks to codes of honor or bails on that honor for the sake of defending his homeland and the people he cares about. It's a real arc, trying to ask real questions
Thank you.
 

Casual Shinji

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Well in the case of FF7, then the game was fun and wouldn't have won on graphical merits because while the main characters look good, much of that remake looks like low poly ass. TLOU2 is a much better looking game.

Ghosts however can certainly be filed as just as beautiful and artistic as anything TLOU2 did, hell Ghosts even does the circle of violence/revenge plot better because Jin's character has to make though decisions in which he either sticks to codes of honor or bails on that honor for the sake of defending his homeland and the people he cares about. It's a real arc, trying to ask real questions.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. What's makes you think it would've been less disingenuous had FF7R or Ghost won best game rather than TLoU2 within the same awards system? TLoU2 winning doesn't automatically make the awards fraudulent, and FF7R or Ghost winning wouldn't have made it automatically just.

That's certainly possible. I'm sure people who just play the game for shooty shooty bang bangs and realistic graphics love the shit out of that game. And i really don't find any issue with the average Joe loving the game for whatever reason.
Again, this feels like insinuating that people who genuinely liked the story don't exist.

My issue comes from Professionals who took that game and showered it with praise. Best story telling? Anyone who really took a critical eye to that story could point out loads of issues with the plot. The vast majority of events in TLOU2 happen because Naughty Dog deliberately change the characters in order to make the story happen. It's what is commonly referred to as an "idiot plot" or a plot that only happens because every character is an idiot.
Yeah, and a lot of critics didn't see it that way. These were the same critics that showered FF7R with praise for its meta-plot (which was equally stupid), and praised the hell out of Ghost's rather generic open-world. At least that's how I saw it, but they didn't, and I'm not going to call into question their critical eye for not agreeing with me. I mean, I think they're wrong, but you know, opinions and all that...

Hey, remember when Joker got critically praised for anything other than make-up? It even got nominated for best film. Yeah, that kinda blew my mind. Does that mean I can now objectively claim all these critics suck at their jobs? Probably not, right?

Frankly this isn't even a case for FF7, my personal GOTY, getting all this praise. My issue is with a game that didn't deserve the praise, getting all the praise. Even Kotaku, who usually is part of the praising for games like TLOU called the awards out https://kotaku.com/games-made-under-crunch-conditions-don-t-deserve-best-1845863225

There were plenty of other more deserving games this year. Hades, Ghosts, Doom: Eternal, whatever your flavor is. Every catagory TLOU2 won, you could point at any of these games and say it deserves it more. IF you are a critic, after all their job is to be CRITICAL of the media.
Taking out the issue of crunch - which I can confidently say both FF7R and Ghost likely suffered from as well - what could you say about what TLoU2 deserved that isn't totally subjective? What are you basing this claim on that any category it won should've been won by another game, other than your dislike for the game? Or is it the seemingly general dislike the gaming community has for the game? Should we take that as a basis as to whether or not a game wins any award? Because right now all you have to go on is crunch, which is obviously terrible, but is something TLoU2 is far from alone in among the nominees. Certainly the AAA nominees.

Again my issue is with the critics, the people responsible for the actual awards, not doing their damn jobs.
And why would their jobs have been done better if they had prefered FF7R or Ghost?
 

CriticalGaming

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And Ellie has an arc of becoming so obsessed with revenge that she fails to see how good her life is and throws it all away, despite having plenty of reasons not to hike across three states to find Abby.
Ellie does not have an arc because she never questions her obsession with revenge. At no point during the story does Ellie hold back, or question if what she is doing is right or worth it. At no point do any of her supporting characters try to pull her back or encourage her. There is no debate, there is no question, Ellie just goes. Even at the end when she actually let's Abby go, she doesn't actually question anything, she is murder hungry until the very moment in which she could murder Abby and then she just let's her go.

Abby has an arc about how achieving your revenge doesn't really absolve you of your negative emotions and how you need to find something else that's important to you so you can let go of your anger and your guilt.
Abby also doesn't have an arc in much the same way. Abby never questions her actions against Joel, she never shows sorrow or regret for dragging her friends into her revenge plot either. Even as they are dying around her and she learns that Ellie is behind it, she never reflects on Ellie merely being a consequence of her original revenge. She shows no real reason as to why she turns to help Lev and Yara, she never reflects on any motivation of trying to make amends for what she did to Joel, and she couldn't possibly do so because her saving the kids happens before her friends start to die around her so she has no reason to reflect or try to make up for past deeds. Not to mention she willingly and eagerly is still part of a force trying to murder the Serephites at the start of her section. Her motivations make no sense, and show no sign of her character reflecting upon her past. Her only redeeming moment comes from Lev telling her not to kill Dina which she was happy to do seconds before, even delights in knowing that Dina is pregnant. She learns NOTHING from her revenge, and only stops due to Lev. This is not an evolution of character because neither her or Ellie have any real character in the game except for arguably the flashback scenes.

One can discuss the execution of TLoU2 and if the characterization of the returning characters is consistent with TLoU, but to pretend as if it doesn't have real arcs and a story that's narratively cohesive and all-pervasive throughout the game is silly.
Speaking of narative cohesiveness. Tommy states at the begining of the game that going after the WLF the right way is impossible for the settlement due to the lack of man power. This also implies that Tommy is afraid of WLF retaliation against the Jackson settlement, an engagement that the folks of Jackson would very much lose, if they go after deliberate members of the faction. In the end Tommy goes off alone as a lone warrior could possibly get in and get the job done without being traced back to any given settlement. And also going alone he can get Ellie's revenge without tainting Ellie with the deed, since Tommy isn't an innocent person in terms of murder and such himself, at this point Ellie is fairly clean. In the first game Ellie ever kills people that are direct threats to her or Joel, she never murders for the sake of it. Joel and Tommy have both murdered since the outbreak.

At the mid point of the game Tommy, Jesse, Ellie, and Dina are all ready to pack it up and head back home. They get ambushed by Abby and Jesse dies. But everyone else is let go, with injuries.

Then like a year later, possibly more because not only is Dina's baby born but is also at least 8-14 months old. Together Ellie and Dina are living happily ever after somewhere probably fairly close to Jackson. Tommy shows up all mad and shit demanding that Ellie take the revenge on Abby from years ago that she promised. But he was ready to leave it behind beforehand? Just because he got caught and shot he wants revenge now? Also why hasn't he been pestering Ellie to help him find Abby all these months later? Why only way after tempers have long since cooled does he want so much revenge? Especially when Tommy was the cooler levelerheaded one in the approach to said revenge.

At the end of the game it isn't really Ellie's revenge, it's Tommy's.
 
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CriticalGaming

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what could you say about what TLoU2 deserved that isn't totally subjective?
I am not a completely unfair person. I can see merits to games even when i dont like them.

TLOU2 totally deserved, best accessibility because the level in which that game can be tweaked is insane. Best Sound design, the game sounds incredible from zombie sounds to gun shots and ambiant sound, it's a great sounding game. Best action game even, in the sense that the combat (while not really any better or worst that the original from 7 years ago) is still polished to a tee, intense at times, and can really put you into the excitement and stress of the moment.

And why would their jobs have been done better if they had prefered FF7R or Ghost?
I'm not saying that those had to win either.

But when critic reviews are praising the story telling in TLOU2, using that and the graphical detail of the game to boost it's score into the 97's. Meanwhile the general public is basically (once the dust settled with outraged 0/10's) giving the game a 5-6. Then there is some separation there. Which doesn't occur when you look at the differences in other games.

Hades - 93/90
Ori and the Will of Wisps - 93/88
Ghosts - 83/92
FF7 - 87/82
DOOM Eternal - 87/84

None of these games differs more that 5 points between critic reviews and user reviews. Why? What did the critic's see with TLOU2 that the public didn't? And why didn't that same drastic difference occur with any other game that could have been GOTY this year?
 

Casual Shinji

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I'm not saying that those had to win either.

But when critic reviews are praising the story telling in TLOU2, using that and the graphical detail of the game to boost it's score into the 97's. Meanwhile the general public is basically (once the dust settled with outraged 0/10's) giving the game a 5-6. Then there is some separation there. Which doesn't occur when you look at the differences in other games.

Hades - 93/90
Ori and the Will of Wisps - 93/88
Ghosts - 83/92
FF7 - 87/82
DOOM Eternal - 87/84

None of these games differs more that 5 points between critic reviews and user reviews. Why? What did the critic's see with TLOU2 that the public didn't? And why didn't that same drastic difference occur with any other game that could have been GOTY this year?
Who's to say, but neither side is right nor wrong. A certain precentage of critics could be argued are bit too eager for any game with a whiff of "prestige", and a certain percentage of the fans could be argued whipped themselves into a crazy hateful frenzy before the game was even released, not helped by the usual youtube suspects faning the flames.

TLoU2 fell into a weird maelstrom that either side felt the need to viciously fight over, where I think the only way to get a clear view on it is to show it to someone who isn't into gaming or in the loop with the gaming community. That or it needs a couple of years to let it rest and than re-examine it. I fucking hated Uncharted 3 so much at the time it put me off AAA games for a good year, but now I'm not that upset over it anymore. I still think the dumb parts are dumb, which are certainly a lot dumber than in any other Uncharted game, but I don't resent it anymore and can now enjoy it for what it is.
 

CriticalGaming

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Who's to say, but neither side is right nor wrong. A certain precentage of critics could be argued are bit too eager for any game with a whiff of "prestige", and a certain percentage of the fans could be argued whipped themselves into a crazy hateful frenzy before the game was even released, not helped by the usual youtube suspects faning the flames.

TLoU2 fell into a weird maelstrom that either side felt the need to viciously fight over, where I think the only way to get a clear view on it is to show it to someone who isn't into gaming or in the loop with the gaming community. That or it needs a couple of years to let it rest and than re-examine it. I fucking hated Uncharted 3 so much at the time it put me off AAA games for a good year, but now I'm not that upset over it anymore. I still think the dumb parts are dumb, which are certainly a lot dumber than in any other Uncharted game, but I don't resent it anymore and can now enjoy it for what it is.
I think this video was very good at explaining why TLOU2 is kind of a bad game without going into the story much. He explains very well what made the game itself kind of frustrating for me, but he articulates it better. It's long so I don't blame anyone for not watching but if you got time on a drive or something it's worth it.

 
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hanselthecaretaker

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How would this be any different if Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Ghost of Tsushima had won though? Would them winning NOT be a case of the prettiest game winning, or the most nostalgic, or the most big open-world?

If FF7R (which I think I can assume you like a whole lot) sweeped the awards, would you still think it's just shiny graphics winning people over who don't know any better? Maybe you would, but I find it telling that this kind of talk only arises when it regards a game the person in question doesn't like or thinks deserves to win anything.

The fact that you describe it winning with some of the public as 'them just not knowing any better' feels a little judgemental, to say the least. A lot of people who bought and loved FF7R, Ghost, or even Hades - THE critical darling - will still spend money on microtransactions just the same. Heck, some of them probably even loved TLoU2. And not because they didn't know any better, but because they knew what the liked, and that was it.

You seem to suggest some sort of hard line between people who loved TLoU2 and people who loved the other GOTY contenders a.k.a. "who know better", people who are "hardcore gamers" and people who pay for microtransactions, and that just isn't the case.
It could also boil down to the factor that TLoU2 wasn’t by any means a “feel good” kind of game. It also wasn’t revenge porn/fantasy/etc. even though the gameplay and marketing kinda pigeo-holed it as such. Its underlying message ironically mirrored a light back on the kind of vitriol the game itself received, and in itself acted as a litmus test for the player themselves in place of Ellie and Abby. Both characters initially found themselves with strong motives for revenge and hate, but ultimately came out the other side with a greater peace and understanding after being pushed through their own trial by fire.

The structure, mechanics, etc. can be picked apart but at the end of the day as a story-driven game, that was the biggest aspect and what people are recognizing.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Like, have you played the game?
Played through it twice to get the Platinum.

Ellie's arc is that she realizes too late what her revenge cost her, despite everyone but Tommy telling her to stop it
Jesse never tells her to stop her revenge, in fact he only appears in the game later to HELP her get that revenge. Only wavering when he learns of Dina's Pregnancy in which Ellie suggests he stays and takes care of her and takes her home. Dina doesn't ask Ellie to stop until the end of the game to try and prevent her from going to Santa Barbara. Even when she reveals she's pregnant and Ellie conflicts with the need to take her back home Dina says she doesn't have too. Dina encourages Ellie to keep going, even staying in the Theater to study maps and monitor radio communication to help Ellie track people down. She gets sicker later on, but that doesn't really make her discourage Ellie from anything. Jesse is the only one who freaks out a bit about it and even then Dina doesn't want to leave Seattle.

That decision happens after Ellie kills Mel, and Tommy is back with the group. Killing Mel is the only thing that calls Ellie back from whatever revenge mission she's on when Jesse and Tommy both insist it's time to stop. However even that choice is taken away from Ellie with Abby shows up anyway.

Ellie doesn't really have any character moments in the game and that's the problem. If she is supposed to be consumed by revenge, then she would fight against going back, she wouldn't banter with Dina like two kids on a Seattle Date Tour during Day 1. She would be focused on the mission, she would be consumed by it. That was the pint wasn't it? We are supposed to believe that she is consumed by the desire for vengeance? Yet the game literally never shows us any consequence of her morality going out the window for the sake of this revenge. She's not consumed by shit, she's just going through the motions because we need a game to happen.


There are several times in the early Abby levels where this is brought up, especially in the strained relationship between Mel (who thinks Abby went too far) and Abby
There are times when Abby asks her friends for reassurance that killing Joel was what he deserved. Abby asks Mel this directly to which Mel replies, "I think he deserved worse." Manny is also encouraging. It's never brought up with Owen because Owen's going through his own thing, and it's never brought up with Yara or Mel. Outside of a few throw away lines early in Abby's section it's never brought up as a part of Abby's character. She never reflects on what she did to Joel, there is never an emotional debate that we ever see with her.

As for the decision to help Yara and Lev, it's never suggested that Abby goes back for them because of any sort of sorrow, regret, or desire for redemption. She feels two things, one they were just kids, and that they helped her escape when they didn't have to. So she goes back out of obligation from that regard. If it's meant to be a redemption of Abby for Joel's death, the story and the game never make any suggestion towards this.

The narrative is very polarizing on purpose. Ellie deals only in selfish death, and Abby is the hero who saves children and plays with dogs.

The entire point of the game is that revenge is cyclical and that eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind, to borrow a phrase.
I get what the game is trying to be about. My point is that it fails to deliver on what it's trying to do because it's written terribly.

Ellie, at that point, decides that she has to avenge Jessie too, something that consumes both her and Tommy.
Jesse is never brought up again after he gets shot. Tommy also does a 180, from being willing to drop it in the Theater, to being hungry and all consumed by revenge back home months and months later. Which doesn't make sense, unless he is simply mad from taking a bullet to the back of the head. (Which there is no fucking way he should have survived that, when you consider that nobody would have been able to help him with a fucking bullet to the head in any timely manner. Considering the only people alive to help, where beaten to shit back stage. Let alone the travel time from Washington to Wyoming in which someone would have been willing and able to help him.)

Mel wasn't innocent either. She would have survived the encounter with Ellie if she had not attacked Ellie in the first place. Both her and Owen, who at that point where basically done with Abby, tried to fight back against Ellie and got killed for it. Which asks another question. Ellie was supposed to be fully consumed by revenge still at this point, so why the hesitation? The moment Owen struggled against her, a woman blinded by revenge should have just shot them both and left. Again this shows that despite Naughty Dog trying to tell us that Ellie is bound and consumed by her revenge, they do a piss poor job of imparting that motivation upon Ellie at any point in the story.

Take a look at the box art. At no point does Ellie look that angry or consumed by her vengeance in the entire game. At every moment Ellie, hesitates. As you said, with Nora, with Owen and Mel, outside of NPC's during gameplay, Ellie doesn't purposefully kill anyone important to the story at all.

But Abby does. Kills Joel no problem, kills Jesse no problem, shoots Tommy in the head (to kill him) no problem. Lev doesn't try to stop her doing any of that. It's only when it comes to Dina, do the writers use Lev to pull her back as if that's the noble higher ground when she just shot and killed two of Ellie's friends in an instant without hesitation. And if Lev had been 20 seconds behind, she would have slit Dina's throat without a blink.

It's funny, Ellie hesitates at every kill, and Abby doesn't. Yet they want you to feel sorry and empathetic towards Abby. That's bad writing full stop.
 

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hanselthecaretaker

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I think this video was very good at explaining why TLOU2 is kind of a bad game without going into the story much. He explains very well what made the game itself kind of frustrating for me, but he articulates it better. It's long so I don't blame anyone for not watching but if you got time on a drive or something it's worth it.

While he’s right, it is kinda telling that he picked TLoU2 when practically 90+% of AAA games suffer from the same idea (or lack thereof). He picked the easiest target, much like is being done with Cyberpunk: 2077 now that it’s supplanted it.


Ellie does not have an arc because she never questions her obsession with revenge. At no point during the story does Ellie hold back, or question if what she is doing is right or worth it. At no point do any of her supporting characters try to pull her back or encourage her. There is no debate, there is no question, Ellie just goes. Even at the end when she actually let's Abby go, she doesn't actually question anything, she is murder hungry until the very moment in which she could murder Abby and then she just let's her go.



Abby also doesn't have an arc in much the same way. Abby never questions her actions against Joel, she never shows sorrow or regret for dragging her friends into her revenge plot either. Even as they are dying around her and she learns that Ellie is behind it, she never reflects on Ellie merely being a consequence of her original revenge. She shows no real reason as to why she turns to help Lev and Yara, she never reflects on any motivation of trying to make amends for what she did to Joel, and she couldn't possibly do so because her saving the kids happens before her friends start to die around her so she has no reason to reflect or try to make up for past deeds. Not to mention she willingly and eagerly is still part of a force trying to murder the Serephites at the start of her section. Her motivations make no sense, and show no sign of her character reflecting upon her past. Her only redeeming moment comes from Lev telling her not to kill Dina which she was happy to do seconds before, even delights in knowing that Dina is pregnant. She learns NOTHING from her revenge, and only stops due to Lev. This is not an evolution of character because neither her or Ellie have any real character in the game except for arguably the flashback scenes.



Speaking of narative cohesiveness. Tommy states at the begining of the game that going after the WLF the right way is impossible for the settlement due to the lack of man power. This also implies that Tommy is afraid of WLF retaliation against the Jackson settlement, an engagement that the folks of Jackson would very much lose, if they go after deliberate members of the faction. In the end Tommy goes off alone as a lone warrior could possibly get in and get the job done without being traced back to any given settlement. And also going alone he can get Ellie's revenge without tainting Ellie with the deed, since Tommy isn't an innocent person in terms of murder and such himself, at this point Ellie is fairly clean. In the first game Ellie ever kills people that are direct threats to her or Joel, she never murders for the sake of it. Joel and Tommy have both murdered since the outbreak.

At the mid point of the game Tommy, Jesse, Ellie, and Dina are all ready to pack it up and head back home. They get ambushed by Abby and Jesse dies. But everyone else is let go, with injuries.

Then like a year later, possibly more because not only is Dina's baby born but is also at least 8-14 months old. Together Ellie and Dina are living happily ever after somewhere probably fairly close to Jackson. Tommy shows up all mad and shit demanding that Ellie take the revenge on Abby from years ago that she promised. But he was ready to leave it behind beforehand? Just because he got caught and shot he wants revenge now? Also why hasn't he been pestering Ellie to help him find Abby all these months later? Why only way after tempers have long since cooled does he want so much revenge? Especially when Tommy was the cooler levelerheaded one in the approach to said revenge.

At the end of the game it isn't really Ellie's revenge, it's Tommy's.
These videos do a good job of summing up Ellie and Abby, while also mentioning some of your criticism of Ellie’s lack of internalization over her bad deeds


Also, Tommy is a bit of a red herring and cheap plot device, but his 180 also reveals his own flaws. He took responsibility for Ellie’s vengeance on himself as a sense of duty in place of Joel, got maimed, and now blames her and holds her responsible because he never had the connection with her that his brother did.
 
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