Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

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Houseman

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We see you've selected the "context matters" walkback, carrying the implication that the statement had an implied but unspoken 'politics' subgenre. Unfortunately, 'politics' is a listed item in that statement, which throws the notion that it was an unspoken contextual piece.
Because laws about politics, and politics are two different things.

As a bonus round you're trying to conflate my statements to mean ignorance meaning knowing absolutely nothing.
Yes, because you're trying to point out any knowledge as "THAT'S NOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, AHA!"
 

Trunkage

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Why would your level of knowledge about something have anything to do with neutrality? I don't see how the two relate.
Speaking of monks, or maybe nuns, do you think they are educated on the intricacies of US Politics? Do you think that makes them not neutral?
Seems like there are a butt load of assumptions here

When has a nun or a monk shown neutrality? The whole point of joining a religious institution is to be not neutral.
Having knowledge would help you determine IF your being neutral. Without knowledge, you are probably biased
I hope that everyone get educated on US politics. Why are you assuming monks and nuns havent been?
Why would the church (and other religious institutions) not educate their religious attendees?
Last time I went to church, I got lectured on the evils of abortion and how I need to vote against it. Everyone in religious institution has a vested interest being polticlaly engaged. Most are very interested in forcing people to live a certain way
Are nuns and monks adding that much to the political discourse? That's a question. I assume there are religious boards all over the place detailing ideologies
 

Houseman

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When has a nun or a monk shown neutrality? The whole point of joining a religious institution is to be not neutral.

" monks are forbidden from voting in elections. The rationale for this is that monks are in the center and above politics. If they have the right to vote, the argument goes, this will foster division within society, and that is seen as contrary to their primary role in Thai society. "
 

Elijin

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Because laws about politics, and politics are two different things.



Yes, because you're trying to point out any knowledge as "THAT'S NOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, AHA!"
Just gonna eye roll at the first part tbh.

As for the second, no. No. No. I am saying that you have wilfully educated yourself to the point you can argue minute details, then claimed you have maintained ignorance by choice. Those are directly contradicting concepts.

You suck at this, which is embarrassing given how much you do it
 

Houseman

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Just gonna eye roll at the first part tbh.
Because you don't have an argument.

I am saying that you have wilfully educated yourself to the point you can argue minute details, then claimed you have maintained ignorance by choice. Those are directly contradicting concepts.
Yes, I have educated myself to the point where I can argue minute details. But not on political topics. Which goes back to the first point that you don't have an argument for. So it looks like you don't have anything else.
 

Elijin

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My argument was there. It was contextual. You must have missed it.
 

Cheetodust

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You suck at this, which is embarrassing given how much you do it
No he doesn't because you guys are still wasting your time on this. We all know he's just doing this on purpose, you caught him in a lie, cool, he's not going to admit to it so what does arguing with him about how he doesn't argue in good faith accomplish?
 

Adam Jensen

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I only said that following this drama and arguing about it is entertaining for me. That doesn't imply that the rest of what you said is true.
I think you're lying about that as well. I think you're pissed off that your Fuhrer lost and you can't let go and admit that you have no evidence of voter fraud. All of this is just a pathetic attempt to save face. You are aware that you'll look stupid if you admit that you were wrong all this time and that you allowed yourself to be manipulated by a moron like Trump, so "in for a penny, in for a fuckin' pound". This is all that's left for you to do.

Sadly, it will never have the intended effect. You're just digging yourself deeper and losing more and more face with each new comment and each new lie. The best idea would be to abandon that username and create a new one because we won't forget what you did here.
 

Thaluikhain

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Just for a change of pace, can we switch to something else for a bit? Howabout how the UK is failing to deal with covid, we can get someone to defend Bojo and everyone else to point out what a mess he's making.
 

Agema

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Exactly. Why wouldn't he do this, if it were an option? If he has means, motive and opportunity, what's stopping him?
Unless, the answer to "what's stopping him" is "he doesn't actually have that power".
Well, of course, he already did use that option, but:

(One might suspect this was connected to Barr disappearing from the administration shortly after: at long last, after much dedicated service, he finally failed to say something that Trump wanted him to.) But what he can't do is force that investigation to come out with an answer he wants.

Which is why so many people, including Trump, are upset with Kemp, the Republican Governor of Georgia, because in their minds, he's complicit and willingly selling his constituents down the river.

The question is, why? Because he has investigated the evidence and found it lacking?
Because there is no meaningful evidence, as per the above. All these hearings in all these states, all this information brought forward, available for scrutiny by law enforcement agencies state and federal... it doesn't stand scrutiny.

This is one of those odd points where I find myself realising I have more faith in Republicans than many Republicans do. To believe that Kemp, Raffensperger, all these (Republican) officials, politicians, law enforcement politicians are all a bunch of incompetents or crooks is insane. Lots of these people are broadly hard-working, decent, honest, law-abiding and conscientious. They should be assumed to be decent without specific evidence otherwise.

And this is one of the problems with this conspiracy theory. It starts by assuming a bunch of Democrats are corrupt and evil. Then it can only be explained with the collusion of corrupt and evil election officials. And then Republican officials. And then judges, and "deep state" FBI, DoJ... it doesn't end, it just adds more and more people into the negative column. In the end, it's basically the 70% of conservatives believing pretty much all the other 200+ million Americans are corrupt, stupid or incompetent. I know people like to say that liberals are insultingly superior in their attitude to average American, but it's nothing compared to the tidal wave of contempt for human nature implicit in conspiracy theory.
 

Generals

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Just for a change of pace, can we switch to something else for a bit? Howabout how the UK is failing to deal with covid, we can get someone to defend Bojo and everyone else to point out what a mess he's making.
To be fair to Bojo I don't think he failed dealing with Covid more than the average European leader. Having a more infectious strain doesn't help managing infections.
What we could point out is how shitty his Brexit is.
 

Thaluikhain

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To be fair to Bojo I don't think he failed dealing with Covid more than the average European leader. Having a more infectious strain doesn't help managing infections.
He keeps on dramatically changing the covid restrictions with little warning, though, doesn't he? We won't be shutting down 10 days before Christmas, 6 days before we'll shut everything down. Schools are safe and eveyrone should go, don't go to school. Everyone stay at home, no, go out, you're ruining the economy, stay home people you're spreading covid.

Though how much is him, and how much is his government I can't say.

What we could point out is how shitty his Brexit is.
True, that's impressive.
 

Chimpzy

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He keeps on dramatically changing the covid restrictions with little warning, though, doesn't he? We won't be shutting down 10 days before Christmas, 6 days before we'll shut everything down. Schools are safe and eveyrone should go, don't go to school. Everyone stay at home, no, go out, you're ruining the economy, stay home people you're spreading covid.

Though how much is him, and how much is his government I can't say.
Coincidentally
What's the saying? Third time's the charm?
 

Agema

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To be fair to Bojo I don't think he failed dealing with Covid more than the average European leader. Having a more infectious strain doesn't help managing infections.
What we could point out is how shitty his Brexit is.
Honestly, I have to disagree there. You might not have been aware of the truly shambolic process of decision making, U-turns, failed promises and so on. It's not just the raw health casualty figures, it's the utter shambles in terms of education and all sorts of other things that were caused by government incompetence.

It's important to remember that the UK had relatively advanced warning by a week or two, because it went wild over the continent earlier. How did it use those two weeks? Kind of not at all. It was obvious the government did not want to lock down the country - expensive, difficult, etc. Basically, BoJo put it off for about a week or two, possibly in order to let some big events go ahead (including the Cheltenham Gold Cup, much favoured by the upper classes and attended by BoJo himself). That probably cost the UK about 20,000 deaths in a couple of months: from a Germany to an Italy at a stroke.

The government measures for covid-19 have been inconsistent, undermined by other arms of the goverments, weak, unclear, and so on. We had a staggering press conference where a government minister said something, and the chief scientific advisor had to come in straight after and say what the minister had told the press was flatly wrong.

Any way, step foward to November, and the dreaded "second wave". Essentially, the same shit again. Everyone can see the figures rising, and everyone knows it's coming. And then - yet again - BoJo hums and hahs and puts off the decision for a week or two, so that's another 10-20,000 extra people dead. Furthermore, the measures were designed to clear covid-19 cases right down and free the country for Christmas, but the measures were too soft and too late and failed - so now there are infections up the wazoo and the pain is really going to hit in the next 2-3 weeks. Plus we now have to have another uber-lockdown anyway.

So that's the UK: somehow managing to combine just about the most ineffectual anti-covid measures in western Europe AND the worst economic hit.

In some ways, the pandemic has however exploited long-standing problems in British governance and society. I think we have to look at the country and realise the assault on the civil service and local government since the 1980s has severely impaired the bureaucratic competence of the state, and potentially the state itself is not fit for purpose.
 

Generals

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Honestly, I have to disagree there. You might not have been aware of the truly shambolic process of decision making, U-turns, failed promises and so on. It's not just the raw health casualty figures, it's the utter shambles in terms of education and all sorts of other things that were caused by government incompetence.

It's important to remember that the UK had relatively advanced warning by a week or two, because it went wild over the continent earlier. How did it use those two weeks? Kind of not at all. It was obvious the government did not want to lock down the country - expensive, difficult, etc. Basically, BoJo put it off for about a week or two, possibly in order to let some big events go ahead (including the Cheltenham Gold Cup, much favoured by the upper classes and attended by BoJo himself). That probably cost the UK about 20,000 deaths in a couple of months: from a Germany to an Italy at a stroke.

The government measures for covid-19 have been inconsistent, undermined by other arms of the goverments, weak, unclear, and so on. We had a staggering press conference where a government minister said something, and the chief scientific advisor had to come in straight after and say what the minister had told the press was flatly wrong.

Any way, step foward to November, and the dreaded "second wave". Essentially, the same shit again. Everyone can see the figures rising, and everyone knows it's coming. And then - yet again - BoJo hums and hahs and puts off the decision for a week or two, so that's another 10-20,000 extra people dead. Furthermore, the measures were designed to clear covid-19 cases right down and free the country for Christmas, but the measures were too soft and too late and failed - so now there are infections up the wazoo and the pain is really going to hit in the next 2-3 weeks. Plus we now have to have another uber-lockdown anyway.

So that's the UK: somehow managing to combine just about the most ineffectual anti-covid measures in western Europe AND the worst economic hit.

In some ways, the pandemic has however exploited long-standing problems in British governance and society. I think we have to look at the country and realise the assault on the civil service and local government since the 1980s has severely impaired the bureaucratic competence of the state, and potentially the state itself is not fit for purpose.

To be fair I didn't really think back as far as the first wave when making my comment. Bojo did indeed take a very casual approach at first just to make a big U-turn after he personally got infected and almost died because of Covid. But when I look at recent events and how messy it has been across many European countries I just can't help but feel he's currently handling it particularily badly. I guess this isn't really a compliment towards him but rather a finger pointed at other nations.
France has a ludicrously slow vaccination campaign, Belgium has had its share of messy communication and borderline stupid semi-measures (eg.: overcrowded airports, quarantines that everyone knows won't be enforced, ...) and Luxembourg used to be have quite relaxed measure untill Christmas which suddenly sparked the beginning of tough measures despite numbers going slightly into the right direction. We could also mention the Netherlands which for long had crappy testing capacities because the government refused to rely on big testing labs and wanted local Dutch labs to do all the testing. All in all, it has been messy in many countries and unlike leaders like Bolsonaro and Trump at least Bojo managed to change his mind and seems to be somewhat aware of the gravity of the situation. It isn't much but it's something.
 
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