So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

[ObsidianJones]

I see a lot of people talking about how stupidly and senile Biden looks. How it seems like he doesn't want to win the Presidency. How he doesn't deserve the vote. I'll grant you all of this.

But the difference is that for a lot of us, while Biden has shown that he potentially isn't a good president, Trump has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can never be a good president for the United States. He's been killer for the Republicans. If you're a Republican, I can get why you're thrilled. Trump has shown that he literally will not give anyone but you his ear. He's a winner for you.

But that begs the question of why Democrats, Progressives, Independents, and Centralists would ever allow Trump to remain in power when all Trump cares about is pandering to his base while giving untold power to the Corporations of this nation? I'll grant you even that there were better picks than Biden. He was never my choice. There was definitely better choices than Trump.

I think the root of this question comes from Fencing Sitting due to Morals when weighing Potential Damage against Actual Damage. Would you allow a racist Governor who is harming his constituents remain in office because you found out that the only person who is running against him cheated in college? Do not trust that candidate, for sure, but to allow the Racist Governor to stay in power because his opponent isn't the miracle you've hoped for is beyond me.

Trump on Civil Rights is Documented. Trump on The Environment is Documented. Trump on Education is Documented.

Biden has shown me verbal stumbles, senior moments, and a potential sexual scandal. All things accepted under Trump. They aren't freaking great... but they were never enough to oust Trump. I fail to see why they should weigh more when the person who does it isn't named Trump.

And yes, you do God Damned Vote "Not The Horrible Thing" when you're presented with it. It's such a basic concept, it's laughable that it's even brought up as a question. "Not Trump" is completely a valid stance when you just have to scroll up and see what Trump has accomplished in his time.

I'll sum up with this. I am not a fan of Biden for President. Not as much as I loathe Trump as president, admittedly. I would have rather many other candidates in the position. I think the party did the stupid thing of bankability rather than getting a fighter. He would have never been my first choice. But I'm presented with him versus a President who has a Track record when it comes to average Americans and this land of ours as particularly harmful. My morals are more for removing a known liar and a terrible leader (The President Must Lead for the Entire Country, not just your side). Even if Biden would be just a half step in the correct direction, it is the correct direction.

 

[SupahEwok]

Even if Biden would be just a half step in the correct direction, it is the correct direction.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head right here with "Never Biden": the folks you're criticizing don't think he's any kind of correct step. In their view, Trump is like 5 steps wrong, and Biden is 1 step wrong. So yeah, he's better, but I don't think you can be too critical of a stance of not wishing to contribute to the problem even that much.

Whether I vote for Biden will be determined by the overall party platform, VP pick, and how it looks like Congress will shake out. He's reaching out to the progressive side now, and I'm tepidly hopeful that that will result in actionable gains rather than just being placation. There's 5 more months to the election, we'll see if he manages to convince me. Cuz at this point, he does have to convince me. And even if you believe you have a moral impetus to vote for him, you ought to be keeping quiet about it publicly. The more he has to do to unite the Left, the more Leftist his platform will have to be, since he's starting (arguably) from the center.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head right here with "Never Biden": the folks you're criticizing don't think he's any kind of correct step. In their view, Trump is like 5 steps wrong, and Biden is 1 step wrong. So yeah, he's better, but I don't think you can be too critical of a stance of not wishing to contribute to the problem even that much.

Whether I vote for Biden will be determined by the overall party platform, VP pick, and how it looks like Congress will shake out. He's reaching out to the progressive side now, and I'm tepidly hopeful that that will result in actionable gains rather than just being placation. There's 5 more months to the election, we'll see if he manages to convince me. Cuz at this point, he does have to convince me. And even if you believe you have a moral impetus to vote for him, you ought to be keeping quiet about it publicly. The more he has to do to unite the Left, the more Leftist his platform will have to be, since he's starting (arguably) from the center.

Then here, we have to agree what the direction we need to go in.

I believe the direction we need to go in is back to a government that is for the people, not the corporations and hopes that will Trickle Down to Americans. One that will bring back accountability. And Also something to respect. Belief that the measures that are being brought about had proper checks and balances, not firings until there are lapdogs that will do whatever the boss says.

So, to me? That direction is away from Trump. Trump embodies all of that. I will never wish ill on the man even though I can't stand him, but I can see nothing but harm when I look at what is left in his wake. That's why it will be the correct direction regardless.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I believe the direction we need to go in is back to a government that is for the people, not the corporations and hopes that will Trickle Down to Americans.

And how is Joe Biden even one step in that direction? His energetic support for mass incarceration suggests he values private prisons more than the people. His enthusiasm for the Iraq War suggests he values Raytheon (and so on) more than the people. His anti-Medicare4All stance suggests that he values insurance companies more than the people. Simply put, he is not on our side. His treatment of accusers suggests he values his career more than justice. Even if he was on our side, he's going senile and the people around him aren't on our side either.

I will never wish ill on the man even though I can't stand him

I will. A literal pox on both their houses.

 

[Buyetyen]

And how is Joe Biden even one step in that direction? His energetic support for mass incarceration suggests he values private prisons more than the people. His enthusiasm for the Iraq War suggests he values Raytheon (and so on) more than the people. His anti-Medicare4All stance suggests that he values insurance companies more than the people. Simply put, he is not on our side. His treatment of accusers suggests he values his career more than justice. Even if he was on our side, he's going senile and the people around him aren't on our side either.

And a Trump second term would be different in a positive way, how?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This feels like a really ironic topic to come up on the same day Biden told black people who question his platform that they aren't black.

The eternal question of "why should I vote for Biden" is dodged by everyone, up to and including Biden. So I'll echo what Ewok and Seanchaidh said, Biden is a step in the wrong direction, independent of his opponent.

 

[Worgen]

I don't get the Biden is senile meme. Hes got some old man but he sounds pretty together.

Also, the Tara Reade thing, the more I hear about it the less I think she is telling the exact truth.

I know some people are accelerationists and they want things to go socialist or to go super right wing since they are sure they if things get bad enough then everyone will go socialist and it will be perfect.

 

[Seanchaidh]

And a Trump second term would be different in a positive way, how?

There would be less illusion about the capacity of "moderate" Democrats to effectively build coalitions capable of defeating the GOP.

In any case, every vote for Joe Biden helps Donald Trump defeat Howie Hawkins.

 

[Buyetyen]

There would be less illusion about the capacity of "moderate" Democrats to effectively build coalitions capable of defeating the GOP.

In any case, every vote for Joe Biden helps Donald Trump defeat Howie Hawkins.

This is a better end state than Trump being out of office?

 

[Dreiko]

I'm not sure I'll be voting for Trump. Most likely I'm not gonna vote at all. Especially now with the virus risk I definitely have no motivation to take a health risk for Biden lol.


But on a more fundamental level and to answer your question better, it's cause I voted for Hillary last time when every fiber of my being was against it and I felt ashamed to the point where I hid away those "I voted" stickers they give out. My reasoning last time was that I was a Bernie supporter and if he endorsed her then he must have some wisdom so I should trust his judgement.

Now, I see that he was moving in a more strategic way, aiming to not remove his influence over the party and politics in general by standing against her in his endorsement and subsequent support. It is an approach I understand but which holds no sway over me all the same.

I see it much in the same way I see his latter stances such as his change of policy with regards to open borders (his original position being that open boarders is a Koch Brother policy that will ensure them cheap labor for their factories) and his approaches with regards to the SJW-related issues. I didn't much care for him letting people steal his mic and shout at his audience like they owned the place, but they were black women and if he did the right thing and told them that it wasn't their right to take up his microphone he would be branded as some sort of racist or sexist so he had to let them go on.

But yeah, this got us nowhere, so now, if you want to get our vote you have to actually earn it or be prepared to lose to Trump. A world where the democratic party is empowered to keep acting like it has is the greater evil in my eyes.

 

[Buyetyen]

I'm not sure I'll be voting for Trump. Most likely I'm not gonna vote at all. Especially now with the virus risk I definitely have no motivation to take a health risk for Biden lol.

Does your state allow for mail-in voting?

 

[ObsidianJones]

And how is Joe Biden even one step in that direction? His energetic support for mass incarceration suggests he values private prisons more than the people. His enthusiasm for the Iraq War suggests he values Raytheon (and so on) more than the people. His anti-Medicare4All stance suggests that he values insurance companies more than the people. Simply put, he is not on our side. His treatment of accusers suggests he values his career more than justice. Even if he was on our side, he's going senile and the people around him aren't on our side either.

I never said he was on our side. I don't believe any Politician is truly on our side. I believe every Politician values their career above justice. They are Politicians.

But I believe in the damage they can do if left unchecked. And Trump is the most unchecked person I've seen in my decades of life. There's a reason I call Biden a half step. He might surprise me, but his only use is to get Trump out of office. I might be completely wrong. He might wow me and put up actual protections for our environment and land. He

But the only thing I'm certain of is Trump not only won't, but has actively voted against those things. We are worst off with Trump in office. Biden is not on our side. I get that. But only one of them actively harmed this nation with his actions as president.

This feels like a really ironic topic to come up on the same day Biden told black people who question his platform that they aren't black.

The eternal question of "why should I vote for Biden" is dodged by everyone, up to and including Biden. So I'll echo what Ewok and Seanchaidh said, Biden is a step in the wrong direction, independent of his opponent.

I've never dodged it. I flat out stated. It might not be enough for you, but Trump does harm and that harm needs to stop. That is essentially what every vote is. You see the best way to use your power. Even if you don't like the candidates, one will inevitably cause more harm than the other. We've seen Trump unchained and he ran amuck. I can not believe he will mellow out with a second term.

If you can look at the relatively small list of things Trump has done, shrug, and then say "Well, what about the other guy", I'm legitimately at a lost for words. Trump has set us back. Full stop. He will continue to misuse his power. I call Biden a half step because that's all he is. He is the removal of the man who is harming millions of Americans and our creditability everywhere.

You would be right about Biden if this was an open party system. It is not. If there was another choice, I would not have ever made this thread. I one hundred percent admit that. But we have a nation tearing itself apart with Trump as a ring leader. We have a man who looked at the safety of your drinking water and said "Eh, screw it". Trump tells people to take untested medicine with the idea of "What do you have to lose?". I will never agree with Biden a hundred percent of the way. But I see what Trump is about and I can't in good conscious say I can live with that because I didn't get my ideal candidate.

The only direction that is bad is stagnancy.

 

[Buyetyen]

You would be right about Biden if this was an open party system. It is not. If there was another choice, I would not have ever made this thread. I one hundred percent admit that. But we have a nation tearing itself apart with Trump as a ring leader. We have a man who looked at the safety of your drinking water and said "Eh, screw it". Trump tells people to take untested medicine with the idea of "What do you have to lose?". I will never agree with Biden a hundred percent of the way. But I see what Trump is about and I can't in good conscious say I can live with that because I didn't get my ideal candidate.

The only direction that is bad is stagnancy.

I'll take True Neutral over Chaotic Evil any day.

 

[Seanchaidh]

The only direction that is bad is stagnancy.

Electing Joe Biden would be just that. More of the same bullshit that led to electing Trump in the first place.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I never said he was on our side. I don't believe any Politician is truly on our side. I believe every Politician values their career above justice. They are Politicians.

But I believe in the damage they can do if left unchecked. And Trump is the most unchecked person I've seen in my decades of life. There's a reason I call Biden a half step. He might surprise me, but his only use is to get Trump out of office. I might be completely wrong. He might wow me and put up actual protections for our environment and land. He

But the only thing I'm certain of is Trump not only won't, but has actively voted against those things. We are worst off with Trump in office. Biden is not on our side. I get that. But only one of them actively harmed this nation with his actions as president.



I've never dodged it. I flat out stated. It might not be enough for you, but Trump does harm and that harm needs to stop. That is essentially what every vote is. You see the best way to use your power. Even if you don't like the candidates, one will inevitably cause more harm than the other. We've seen Trump unchained and he ran amuck. I can not believe he will mellow out with a second term.

If you can look at the relatively small list of things Trump has done, shrug, and then say "Well, what about the other guy", I'm legitimately at a lost for words. Trump has set us back. Full stop. He will continue to misuse his power. I call Biden a half step because that's all he is. He is the removal of the man who is harming millions of Americans and our creditability everywhere.

You would be right about Biden if this was an open party system. It is not. If there was another choice, I would not have ever made this thread. I one hundred percent admit that. But we have a nation tearing itself apart with Trump as a ring leader. We have a man who looked at the safety of your drinking water and said "Eh, screw it". Trump tells people to take untested medicine with the idea of "What do you have to lose?". I will never agree with Biden a hundred percent of the way. But I see what Trump is about and I can't in good conscious say I can live with that because I didn't get my ideal candidate.

The only direction that is bad is stagnancy.

See, that is exactly what I don't find compelling. I don't see Biden as a good candidate in any sense, and has absolutely zero appeal. In fact, I consider him a step back in terms of politics, with a lot of his flaws flat out ignored or rationalized away. Every time he speaks in public, he utters something that condemns him as a politician.

And nobody can tell me why to vote for him. They can tell me endlessly why I should vote against Trump and I agree, but not a single reason to vote for Biden. Because the only reason to vote for Biden is if he completely destroys his past 40+ years of accomplishments in politics. Something he stubbornly refuses to do.

 

[Buyetyen]

See, that is exactly what I don't find compelling. I don't see Biden as a good candidate in any sense, and has absolutely zero appeal. In fact, I consider him a step back in terms of politics, with a lot of his flaws flat out ignored or rationalized away. Every time he speaks in public, he utters something that condemns him as a politician.

And nobody can tell me why to vote for him. They can tell me endlessly why I should vote against Trump and I agree, but not a single reason to vote for Biden. Because the only reason to vote for Biden is if he completely destroys his past 40+ years of accomplishments in politics. Something he stubbornly refuses to do.

I agree, Biden is a terrible fucking candidate. The alternative is Trump, which is measurably worse. So, my question to you is, what does not voting accomplish? How does not voting improve this situation in any way?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I agree, Biden is a terrible fucking candidate. The alternative is Trump, which is measurably worse. So, my question to you is, what does not voting accomplish? How does not voting improve this situation in any way?

I'm going to vote for someone else. I'm going to let people know that you don't actually have to vote for Biden.

 

[Buyetyen]

I'm going to vote for someone else. I'm going to let people know that you don't actually have to vote for Biden.

That you CAN vote third party or write-in was never in question. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. What do you think this will accomplish?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

That you CAN vote third party or write-in was never in question. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. What do you think this will accomplish?

If everyone did it, it COULD accomplish something. Voting for the same 2 parties isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

That you CAN vote third party or write-in was never in question. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. What do you think this will accomplish?

What Phoenixmgs said. Voting for Biden accomplishes nothing, so I advocate for voting for someone who's worth voting for.