So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

[Worgen]

I agree, Biden is a terrible fucking candidate.

Is he a terrible candidate? I linked an interview with him before and he seems mostly fine during it. Very personable, knows what hes talking about, I don't agree with all his positions but he seems like a decent candidate all things considered.

 

[Buyetyen]

If everyone did it, it COULD accomplish something. Voting for the same 2 parties isn't going to accomplish anything.

What Phoenixmgs said. Voting for Biden accomplishes nothing, so I advocate for voting for someone who's worth voting for.

Realistically speaking, what do you think will happen if you do this? Do you believe that your protest votes are actually contributing to a plausible electoral upset?

Is he a terrible candidate? I linked an interview with him before and he seems mostly fine during it. Very personable, knows what hes talking about, I don't agree with all his positions but he seems like a decent candidate all things considered.

From a leftist perspective, yes. Biden has a voting record with terrible baggage, he's very much in bed with the donor class and he's in favor of a business-as-usual approach when we need reform. For all his flaws, the alternative is a tangerine id that befouls everything it touches. Easy to look better when you're being compared to the avatar of Mammon. Biden does have experience and skill as a politician, but his platform is not what it needs to be. I'll hold my nose and support him anyway, because at least he knows how a government is run. Trump cannot say the same. Worst case scenario for Biden, his cognitive decline ushers in a term with his VP candidate. We've yet to see who that will be as of writing, but I have a hunch it won't be someone who tried to pray an epidemic away and calls their significant other, "Mother."

 

[Worgen]

From a leftist perspective, yes. Biden has a voting record with terrible baggage, he's very much in bed with the donor class and he's in favor of a business-as-usual approach when we need reform.

I looked this up before and it actually seems like what hes in favor of isn't bad, can you tell me what parts are business as usual?

 

[Buyetyen]

I looked this up before and it actually seems like what hes in favor of isn't bad, can you tell me what parts are business as usual?

Mostly it's what isn't there. The most glaring omission is that he does not support Medicare for All, supporting instead modest expansions to the ACA. It was bad before, but the pandemic has shown us just how inadequate our for-profit health insurance system is to deal with the realities of global life in the 21st century. His record on abortion is also sketchy and he still hasn't disavowed his more questionable votes. His marijuana legalization policy of "leave it to the states" is a cop-out that doesn't address issues with it still being illegal at the federal level. His climate policy is made of half-measures that don't do enough given the timeframe we're working with, and with no mention of subsidizing solar and wind, but a focus on nuclear.

As for what is there that indicates business as usual? No trust busting. On board for TPP 2 Electric Boogaloo. Still not on board for free college and student debt forgiveness (personal middle finger there, I admit). And of course, increasing defense spending.

Like I said, I'm still voting Biden and I'm glad we got some criminal justice reform and other progressive concessions from him. But the stuff I described leaves something of a burr in my boxers.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Realistically speaking, what do you think will happen if you do this? Do you believe that your protest votes are actually contributing to a plausible electoral upset?

Yes. As opposed to voting for one of the most right-wing Democrats in the party, I think I'm doing far more than ignoring the positions of the person I'm voting for. Vote for policies, not people. If you don't vote for policies, you won't get them.

 

[Buyetyen]

Yes. As opposed to voting for one of the most right-wing Democrats in the party, I think I'm doing far more than ignoring the positions of the person I'm voting for. Vote for policies, not people. If you don't vote for policies, you won't get them.

What are you basing the assumption that this will work on? That enough people around the US whom you have not met and probably never will meet will be protest voting in solidarity with you? Is there some poll data to indicate this? Some kind of sign that there is sufficient interest among the electorate to vote 3rd party or write-in? And which one? Because if it's write-in, that's gonna be... difficult to coordinate. And if it's third party, who? And why?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

What are you basing the assumption that this will work on? That enough people around the US whom you have not met and probably never will meet will be protest voting in solidarity with you? Is there some poll data to indicate this? Some kind of sign that there is sufficient interest among the electorate to vote 3rd party or write-in? And which one? Because if it's write-in, that's gonna be... difficult to coordinate. And if it's third party, who? And why?

Current plan is the Green party, which is looking like Howie Hawkins. And because his policies actually align with mine to at least some extent. Single-payer healthcare, really trying to mitigate climate change, campaign and electoral reform, tax reform, etc.

Things Biden is adamantly against.

 

[Worgen]

The most glaring omission is that he does not support Medicare for All, supporting instead modest expansions to the ACA. It was bad before, but the pandemic has shown us just how inadequate our for-profit health insurance system is to deal with the realities of global life in the 21st century.

Actually according to this site he does support a public medicare for all option.

Plan to Protect and Build on Obamacare | Joe Biden

Joe Biden will protect and build on Obamacare by giving Americans more choice, reducing health care costs, and making the system less complex to navigate.

joebiden.com

His record on abortion is also sketchy and he still hasn't disavowed his more questionable votes.

He does have a questionable past with abortion, but I don't think he would go against the party line with it.

His marijuana legalization policy of "leave it to the states" is a cop-out that doesn't address issues with it still being illegal at the federal level.

I don't know, by saying leave it to the states that kinda tells me that he would remove the illegality from a federal level or at least stop having the feds pursue cases against it.

His climate policy is made of half-measures that don't do enough given the timeframe we're working with, and with no mention of subsidizing solar and wind, but a focus on nuclear.

I dont know, it does sound like he mentions it in his energy policy, although he does mention nuclear. I think when it comes down to it, we might need some level of nuclear to help our transition out of fossil fuels.

I'm On Board for Climate! Join me here:

Sign up to say I'm On Board for Climate to elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walz who have taken the most ambitious actions to tackle the climate crisis in U.S. history. Tell us how you’d like to join our organizing efforts:

joebiden.com

As for what is there that indicates business as usual? No trust busting. On board for TPP 2 Electric Boogaloo. Still not on board for free college and student debt forgiveness (personal middle finger there, I admit). And of course, increasing defense spending.

I would like more trust busting, but it does sound like hes in favor of community college being free and forgiving the debt of those who are in debt from them. Just being able to take your core classes at one as opposed to a uni would save a lot.

Plan for Education Beyond High School | Joe Biden

Joe Biden's plan for education beyond high school will give hard-working Americans the chance to join or maintain their place in the middle class.

joebiden.com

Hes still not ideal but I think hes got better positions then a lot of people give him credit for.

 

[Buyetyen]

Current plan is the Green party, which is looking like Howie Hawkins. And because his policies actually align with mine to at least some extent. Single-payer healthcare, really trying to mitigate climate change, campaign and electoral reform, tax reform, etc.

Things Biden is adamantly against.

But what are you basing this assumption that protest voting will work this time on?

Hes still not ideal but I think hes got better positions then a lot of people give him credit for.

Primary's over and done with, I don't want to change your mind. We'll make the best of what we have and keep pushing harder for progressive policy. Like I said, we got some concessions out of him. It's a start.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

But what are you basing this assumption that protest voting will work this time on?

That I have a choice between supporting someone I might want against two people I definitely don't. If I vote for something I don't want, I empower it to continue. I won't do that.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Realistically speaking, what do you think will happen if you do this? Do you believe that your protest votes are actually contributing to a plausible electoral upset?

How do you think you'd ever get major things to change like healthcare, the tax code, campaign finance, etc.? You think anyone from the current 2 parties is actually going to change any of those things in any significant way? We're literally holding congressional hearings about whether you can repair fucking computers, it's the stupidest damn shit. And, it's not just the president, you gotta to vote both the parties out of congress too so you can actually legislate. Do I think the public is smart enough to do that? Hell no. My vote means nothing in the presidential election anyway, I live in Illinois, it's a blue state, the blue candidate is going to get the electoral votes.

 

[Trunkage]

I'm not voting so take this as you will

Because I don't think Biden would do a much better job. He was VP under Deporter in Chief, Double Taps, putting in bad laws that Trump is exploiting (eg. kids in cages), the debacle in Libya and Syria, continued the bailout during the GFC while throwing a bone to the little guy which has directly lead to Occupy Wallstreet and Tea Party which lead to Sanders and Trump. Obama tried deal with China and that didn't work, not that I think Trump's had any success either. China has continually outclasses the US diplomatically for decades now. I think this virus would be everywhere under Biden, it just wouldn't be Obama's or China's or the nurses fault like Trump claims

He worse than Obama because he's racist, sexist, likes nepotism and corrupt. I.e. he's Trump. Well, if we're rating from 1 to Trump, he's an 8. His positives is that he doesn't insult people so harshly. Obama listened to experts, even if they lead him wrong. Biden just makes stuff up and then decides whose the expert

Plus Pelosi has not being holding Trump to account over the last three years and doing stupid political manoeuvres in the last two months that hurt Americans. The Dems aren't doing that great either.

The worst part is that he's not really for anything. Even Trump has more ideas than him. They may be terrible but at least he has some.

Lastly, electability. I don't think the Dems understand what that word means. Talk about Bernie being a Socialist all you want but Obama and Biden were called Socialists for 8 years so your speaking out your arse. if you havent got yet that anyone not Republican is going to be called a Socialists, no one can help you. And Bernie had a clear vision and Biden all about reversing.

If it wasn't for Republicans pulling weird stuff all the time, stealing medical supplies off the states so they can make money, forcing their religion on everyone or deciding everyone who is worried about going work due to the virus clearly are just lazy, then it would be an easy switch to something else. Un/fortunately that something else is Trump so... what are you going to do. The Dems copy the GOP far too much. It's about time one of them grew up

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Considering Biden's plan is to give us 4 years of the same kind of presidency that got the GOP almost enough governors to call a constitutional convention, I think our best bet is for Biden to get hit by a bus next week.
Seriously: a milquetoast healthcare plan that lets insurance companies dump high-cost patients on the government, a green energy plan that, if we started building nuke plants the day he got inaugurated, wouldn't produce any power until after his first term, punting on marijuana and prison reform, more military spending, keeping PATRIOT and ICE and Guantanamo...
We're getting a Trump for another four years, we're just deciding if we want a 4 year break first.

 

[Agema]

I think the failure to do the absolute minimum of removing Trump is why the centre/left may lose, and will continue to fumble things again, and again, and again for years to come. The left seems happier fighting ideological battles within itself than defeating the right. Losing factions within the left then decide to storm off in a colossal sulk and condemn all the left to lose, because if they couldn't win then no-one should.

That's what a lot of this anti-Biden stuff really is. It's helping the drip-feed of negativity to damage his campaign, because if he loses it will vindicate their support for Sanders. They rage at the scheming of the DNC in 2016, and in the UK they rage at the sabotage of Corbyn, but then they bitterly stick the knife in the backs of their own too. And they'll justify it on any number of counts, none of which is the core requirement of a political grouping to deal with the practicalities of politics and win the damn election so it has the power to do anything at all.

 

[lil devils x]

And nobody can tell me why to vote for him.

According to reasons you have given as to why you should or should not vote for a candidate, you have been given numerous reasons to vote for Biden:
1)His expansion of the ACA, Medicare, and medicaid will save millions of lives.

2)His student loan debt forgiveness plan will help millions of people recover so they can stop sinking and start to get ahead again so they can at least have a chance at financially recovering at some point

3)His Infrastructure plan will help the US recover from Trump's set backs and help so many areas that desperately need improvement right now because this becomes disastrous due to additional stress of climate change on US's failing infrastructure..

4)He" touts a $1.7 trillion plan to set the United States on a course to achieve 100% clean energy and net-zero emissions by 2050.
The plan, dubbed the Clean Energy Revolution, calls for the installation of 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations nationwide by 2030, ending fossil fuel subsidies, and providing $400 billion for research and development in clean technology."

5)"he would not sell weapons to Saudi Arabia — marking a sharp contrast with the Obama administration — and stressing he would make the Saudis “pay the price” for their killing of Washington Post contributor Jamal Khashoggi.
“I would make it very clear we were not going to in fact sell more weapons to them,” Biden said. “We were going to in fact make them pay the price, and make them in fact the pariah that they are.” Biden also said there is “very little social redeeming value in the present government in Saudi Arabia,” and, in reference to Yemen, said he would end “end the sale of material to the Saudis where they’re going in and murdering children.”

6)He is backed by the scientific and community due to his position on using fact based science to make his decisions and his commitments made to research.

7)His plan significantly increases taxes on the wealthy in order to help the problems affecting the middle and lower class rather than increasing the burden on those already struggling to survive here.

8)He is pro worker and will aggressively pursue employers who violate labor laws, and intentionally misclassify workers as contract labor in order to skirt the law and avoid benefits and will strengthen unions.He plans to eliminate employer contract clauses that make it difficult for employees to find better jobs and benefits.

9) He plans to increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour and ensure workers are paid their overtime pay as well as improved health, safety and working conditions.

10) He is increasing access to affordable housing and "guarantee Section 8 Housing Choice Vouchers to every eligible household so these households will not have pay more than 30% of their incomes on their rents and utilities in addition to $5 billion in federal funding annually for a renter’s tax credit to support individuals and families who may earn too much to qualify for a Section 8 voucher but still struggle to pay their housing costs. The plan would invest $300 million in grants to incentivize local communities to eliminate exclusionary zoning policies, and it would implement the 2015 Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing Rule requiring communities receiving certain federal funds to proactively identify and address historic patterns of segregation and discrimination. "

11) He actually has a chance of winning to be able to implement these things and will not just be a throw away vote. Protest votes are only acceptable in non swing states where your vote wouldn't count regardless, otherwise you are still responsible for the actions of whoever winds up winning anyhow due to already understanding how the US "winner takes all" system works. All vote splitting for the better team does is help the worse of two candidates win. THIS is why we have so many factions in the democratic party, because it takes everyone who wants to do things different ways banding together and compromising in order to get ANYTHING done, or we will never have anything done, ever, due to everyone having their own ideas on how we should go about doing it and endlessly bickering about it while the GOP is allowed to grind the middle class into the dust

There are plenty of reasons WHY you should vote for him , though you know, it seems these things only matter to you if a democrat is not doing them, not when they actually put the funding in their plan and Republicans get a free ticket to make all of these things so much worse but that is some how " okay" because you are not getting everything you want.

Sources:

At Debate, Joe Biden Says He Would Make Saudi Arabia a “Pariah”

Biden also made some blunders during Wednesday's Democratic debate, including saying we have to keep “punching at” domestic violence.

theintercept.com

Joe Biden: Let’s Forgive Student Loans

Does he agree with Bernie?

www.forbes.com

Joe Biden proposes $1.3 trillion infrastructure overhaul — and swipes at Trump for inaction

Joe Biden targets President Trump for a lack of progress on infrastructure, one of his key campaign promises in 2016.

www.cnbc.com

Where Biden and Sanders diverge on climate change

Democratic White House hopefuls Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders believe climate change is an existential threat, that the United States should immediately rejoin global climate talks, and that fossil fuel workers need help adjusting to a cleaner energy economy.

www.reuters.com

Scientists and climate experts endorse Joe Biden for president

"Joe Biden will respect, collaborate with, and listen to leaders in the scientific community..." they write.

www.axios.com

US election: Biden makes big promises on medical research, as field of Democrat candidates narrows

After a strong showing on Super Tuesday cemented his position as one of the front-runners, former vice president Joe Biden took to the stage to pledge “billions of dollars” to find cures for cancer and other diseases.

sciencebusiness.net

Even moderate Joe Biden would significantly increase taxes on the wealthy if elected

Former Vice President Joe Biden's plan to raise taxes on corporations and wealthy households would increase federal revenue by $4 trillion over the next decade, according to a new analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

www.cnbc.com

Plan to Strengthen Organized Labor and Collective Bargaining | Joe Biden

Strong unions built the American middle class. That's why Joe Biden has an extensive plan for strengthening organized labor and collective bargaining.

joebiden.com

Vice President Biden Releases Affordable Housing Plan

Former Vice President Joe Biden (D-DE) joined other Democratic presidential candidates in releasing plans to address the nation’s affordable housing crisis.

nlihc.org

 

[lil devils x]

I think the failure to do the absolute minimum of removing Trump is why the centre/left may lose, and will continue to fumble things again, and again, and again for years to come. The left seems happier fighting ideological battles within itself than defeating the right. Losing factions within the left then decide to storm off in a colossal sulk and condemn all the left to lose, because if they couldn't win then no-one should.

That's what a lot of this anti-Biden stuff really is. It's helping the drip-feed of negativity to damage his campaign, because if he loses it will vindicate their support for Sanders. They rage at the scheming of the DNC in 2016, and in the UK they rage at the sabotage of Corbyn, but then they bitterly stick the knife in the backs of their own too. And they'll justify it on any number of counts, none of which is the core requirement of a political grouping to deal with the practicalities of politics and win the damn election so it has the power to do anything at all.

TBH though, I am not even sure that many of those fueling the endless bickering on the left are actually left in the first place, instead their motive appears to be to just keep the left bickering regardless of what is actually being done here so that Trump will win. Even when we gain ground for the left, they are dissatisfied and make up a ridiculous amount of excuses as to why they do not believe them. Scapegoating Bernie when Bernie is telling his supporters to vote for Biden so that Bernie can work on getting his plans through congress means they really didn't support Bernie in the first place because they are intentionally preventing him from his current plan to implement his policies. It is those claiming that " Biden isn't left enough" that ARE the biggest obstacle to actually having the left's policies implemented. Biden isn't the one standing in their way, they are. Biden will sign whatever Bernie or Warren manage to get to his desk, Trump will not, so those opposing Biden are actually the ones responsible at this point for blocking Bernie's policies.

 

[lil devils x]

How do you think you'd ever get major things to change like healthcare, the tax code, campaign finance, etc.? You think anyone from the current 2 parties is actually going to change any of those things in any significant way? We're literally holding congressional hearings about whether you can repair fucking computers, it's the stupidest damn shit. And, it's not just the president, you gotta to vote both the parties out of congress too so you can actually legislate. Do I think the public is smart enough to do that? Hell no. My vote means nothing in the presidential election anyway, I live in Illinois, it's a blue state, the blue candidate is going to get the electoral votes.

You have to take congress to get any of those things done. What is your current plan to flip the conservative districts needed in order to gain enough votes in both houses of congress to enact that policy? Bernie's plan is the best plan we have thus far to do it, and at this point that includes having Biden elected president. Having Bernie in congress right now is actually even more important than having him in the white house. He has to help write the bills, drum up support to pass them. We just need a Democrat in the Oval Office to sign them. As long as Biden can hold a pen, he will do fine at this point. We need those seats in congress more than anything else right now.

If you are not offering a viable plan to accomplish this, what is the point of blocking Bernie from trying to implement his? At the moment it is the only clear path forward.

We have to start on the local level and rebuild from there. The GOP owns the local level right now and it is going to be one hell of a battle to change that. Local, state, and congressional seats are the primary battleground here.

 

[Seanchaidh]

because if he loses it will vindicate their support for Sanders.

Assuming it truly does do that, then that alone is worth it. For much the same reason the centrists believe it is of paramount importance to crush the left uprising within the Democratic Party, the left must understand that it is of paramount importance to destroy the centrist establishment to get them out of the way of progress. They are the immediate obstacle.

 

[Agema]

Assuming it truly does do that, then that alone is worth it. For much the same reason the centrists believe it is of paramount importance to crush the left uprising within the Democratic Party, the left must understand that it is of paramount importance to destroy the centrist establishment to get them out of the way of progress. They are the immediate obstacle.

And then when your candidate finally (maybe) wins the candidacy amidst the usual rancour and bitterness in an election to come, the centre-left will do the same to that candidate: burn him or her down and claim vindication in return. Because that's just the way the left works at the moment. And all along, the right will just laugh and run the country.

 

[Thaluikhain]

We're getting a Trump for another four years, we're just deciding if we want a 4 year break first.

Assuming all you get is a 4 year break, that's not small thing.

And then when your candidate finally (maybe) wins the candidacy amidst the usual rancour and bitterness in an election to come, the centre-left will do the same to that candidate: burn him or her down and claim vindication in return. Because that's just the way the left works at the moment. And all along, the right will just laugh and run the country.

This. Assuming that the others of "your side" will work with you when you wont work with them isn't likely to end well.