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Kae

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I am not a great fan of capitalism and would rather see it replaced, but not at any cost. I would also want to know what exactly I am replacing it with, something that no one has an answer to right now. Communism and socialism is what my heart dreams off, but it has also been rather soundly proven that pure socialism is a mire of corruption, inefficiency and terrible decision making.

Here's a terrible analogy: If you live in a home that's quickly being overtaken by mold and becoming too dilapidated to live in, your best course of action is not to turn on some Prodigy, spray gasoline everywhere and let the flames cleanse your house. Either you renovate your house until it is habitable again or you build a new home and then torch the old place as an act of spite and catharsis. A lot of people right now are really itching for the burning part, but there's no other house to move to. People dream big of the house they'll build when the old one is all cinders, but at that point we are without a home and the nights get really fucking cold.

As I said I'd love to see capitalism replaced by something better, but right now there's no "better". And until we get a Marx 2.0 to show us the way into the future, I'd rather try to fix the system we have then burn it to the ground and hope that we can find a replacement that won't be "the guys with the guns tells everyone else what to do", because that's usually how revolutions end up going.
Easy for you to say, because your house isn't already on fire but mine is, what I hate about this whole debacle is that you people forget that the only reason that things don't seem so bad on your end is because all the worst stuff happens outside, your countries cannot sustain your living conditions without the sacrifices of third world countries like mine, so you get to pretend that you're looking for a more moral and rational solution because you don't get to see the people die, you don't get to see the children go to work, you don't get to see the desperate steal and get shot.

So to continue with your analogy is it really worth repairing your home when it requires mine to be burned down?

Also to address the concerns regarding Communism, whether we're talking about Anarchy or a more traditional system of power, we must not forget that the main reason why it has proven to be corrupt has been interference from Capitalist Imperialist, and also regarding more traditional forms of governance I'd also say that they are inherently corrupt and the only way to address these concerns would be to globally transition the economic system towards Anarchy, after all if there are no Capitalist states there will be less Capitalist interference and if there's no class divisions there's going to be less corruption, though I'll admit that problems will always exist I'm sure it will at least be better than what we have now.
 
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Agema

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...but honestly, can't expect much different of people who supported Biden.
He was the better option than Trump.

This operates under the assumption that Capitalism can be reformed or that reforming it is worth the effort, I would argue that it's not, there's little point in trying to fix a system that is quite literally designed upon the premise that some people must have less or nothing in other to be subservient to those that do, a system in which the general populace have no real say on what to do as the real decisions are made by the political class that pretends to be the voice of the people and the filthy capitalists that pay them, it doesn't seem worth the time to me, rather than that we should seek to replace it with something else, I mean why settle for the pretend voting we have now when we could change the system to one where our votes actually do something?
Capitalism at many times has delivered. The postwar period 1945-1970 was probably one of the greatest periods of advancement and social progress ever experienced. Whilst it is dubious we could simply reintroduce those policies (circumstances of the world have changed, and policy must reflect that) clearly capitalism can work to the greater benefit of the masses far more than it does now.

The other thing I would simply ask is what anyone proposes replacing it with. The track record of capitalism's known alternatives all have substantially worse records. I find it hard to believe that a functional successor to capitalism will not be based on the same principles of private ownership and profit (as economies from the dawn of time have generally been). What it seems we don't want is the same rapacious capitalist class we do now: overpowerful billionaires and financial industry, exploitation (human and enviromental), gross wealth imbalance.
 
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Kae

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You're right that I don't see the conditions in the third world every day. But I do get to see a lot of people that the supposed first world system rejects: The mentally ill, those addicted to drugs, those so ill in various ailments that they can't work and I get to see children grow up in abject poverty way more often then I'd like. Don't think that I don't understand just how fucked up global capitalism is or that I don't want to change it.
Good that you understand at least that.

The solution to one house being on fire is not to set all the other houses on the street on fire and making everyone homeless.
Is it not absurd that under the current conditions the only way I have to shut off the fire is to burn everything down?
Is it not absurd that there's more people in my situation than in yours?

This is literally my entire point. I am not trying to defend capitalism, global "free markets" or all the bad shit it is doing to both humanity and the very planet we live on. My point is that tearing it down without knowing what to replace it with will be worse for everyone. We need to come up with something new (and very fast), but until that thing is in place and has a popular movement behind it, it is folly to fuck over the US stock market for the lulz or start an armed revolution and thinking it will do anything but get a bunch of armed thugs into power instead (or even more likely: just get a lot of people killed for no gain at all).
The problem with your point is that it requires the majority to suffer for the good of a minority which is fundamentally absurd, as for a revolution, sure that's what happened in México las time we tried one, fighting for basically Anarchy but the USA's puppets fucked us over and ceased power, that's precisely why I say it needs to be global this time, as for death, we're dying anyway at least it's better to die trying to do something than just lay down and wait for it which is what your asking us to do anyway, I don't think you understand that we don't really have anything to lose, we already have nothing.

Capitalism at many times has delivered. The postwar period 1945-1970 was probably one of the greatest periods of advancement and social progress ever experienced. Whilst it is dubious we could simply reintroduce those policies (circumstances of the world have changed, and policy must reflect that) clearly capitalism can work to the greater benefit of the masses far more than it does now.
Sure it was better that what came before it, but that doesn't mean we should settle for it, under the current circumstances there are zero ways of making it work for the people, to think otherwise is nothing but naive, it's literally leading us to environmental annihilation and as long as it's more profitable to ignore it, there's no way of stopping that, it helped us progress in the past isn't really a good argument when it's holding us back now.

The other thing I would simply ask is what anyone proposes replacing it with. The track record of capitalism's known alternatives all have substantially worse records. I find it hard to believe that a functional successor to capitalism will not be based on the same principles of private ownership and profit (as economies from the dawn of time have generally been). What it seems we don't want is the same rapacious capitalist class we do now: overpowerful billionaires and financial industry, exploitation (human and enviromental), gross wealth imbalance.
I'm not an economist, not am I really educated so I don't know that much about history either, what I do have is at least basic common sense, the track record of Capitalism is abysmal all claims of anything else are propaganda, more people have died under it than under any other economic system in history, but it's really funny how it only matters when it's other economic systems, as if many of the people that died under socialism or communism didn't do so because they were directly being invaded by capitalist pigs who were actively killing them but somehow that counts as a victim of socialism rather than a victim of capitalism, because you know that makes fucking sense.
According to some economic information Socialist economies provide a better quality of life than capitalist economies at the same level of development, of course we focus on the socialist defects while we ignore the suffering capitalist economies, which sounds awfully convenient when making this argument.

Like I said I don't really know, I'm not an expert on the subject, what I do know is that every day things get worse under the current system and we're refusing to do something about it because the people that are making things worse say the alternatives would be far worse, and you know what, things are pretty close to rock bottom for me anyway so fuck it I'd rather gamble it all on something different than keep doing the same bullshit we've been doing for now over a century which just seems to make things worse and worse.
 

Kyrian007

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And my question is: is this spite big enough for them to bite the bullet willingly? How many put their money expecting to never getting it back? The stock market usually is motivated by greed and fear; so pure spite is pretty rare there.
And what will make this interesting to watch is that we will get that answer. The whole thing is dependent on the stock value being artificially inflated. The longer it stays that way, it appears spite is holding on. It will give out eventually succumbing to the greed and fear as more and more cash out and refuse to keep investing, pocketing the profit and unwilling to take the loss. That will leave some with some relatively worthless stock. Most will probably be those who were trying for profit and got the timing drastically wrong or those who just had no idea what they were doing. But I'm sure there are a handful who knew what they were getting into and weren't in it for profit. Cynically I'd say those people probably never invested more than they could afford to lose in the first place, and made their point standing on the shoulders of those who followed them for fun or profit and got ruined in the process. But hey, can't make an omelet...
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Sure it was better that what came before it, but that doesn't mean we should settle for it, under the current circumstances there are zero ways of making it work for the people, to think otherwise is nothing but naive, it's literally leading us to environmental annihilation and as long as it's more profitable to ignore it, there's no way of stopping that, it helped us progress in the past isn't really a good argument when it's holding us back now.
I would suggest a great deal of the problem is not really economic but political.

1) Our political systems lack responsiveness to public will, and have undue responsiveness to extreme wealth.

2) For a lot of concerns, it is not so much capitalism but nationalism. One might note the inhumanity that many socialist regimes enacted on their people in their breakneck race to catch up with the capitalist West. With Brexit, the undercurrent is that the UK wants to competitively outperform the EU. The US right's desire to trash international norms because it stops them doing whatever they please. Countries want to develop, and they want to develop in many cases for power over their neighbours and competitors, and they will be inclined to do it the quickest, easiest and dirtiest way they can, capitalist or not. You can kill capitalism, but unless you also kill things like this, you'll just have people trampling over each other for different forms of competition.
 
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Cheetodust

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Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the United States.
From my perspective the states are largely a third world shithole with an opiod epidemic, massive "food desserts", people working full time living in poverty and a violent militarised police force. The states should be a warning to the west, instead we look up to them.
 

stroopwafel

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You can argue how ''capitalism is bad'' till the cows come home but in the end the real problem is that human nature is inherently selfish. No one will ever make decisions that go against their own interests or make large contributions or sacrifices when no one is watching. The poor aren't better people because they are poor. People also aren''t born equal. Even in a completely egalitarian society some people will always have something the other doesn't have; more attention, more love, more sex, more whatever people desire. It's human nature. If it's not about money it's about status, or looks, or smarts, or health etc. There will always be winners and losers. People who are succesful and people who are shit out of luck. Even with everything equal. Resentment is an emotion because it has developed throughout human history.

It's pretty naive to believe it will ever get better than it currently is. We are at the top of the development pyramid and none(or few) of us ever experienced war, famine or plague.It's easy to fantasize about the destruction of capitalism but let's face it, most people already panick when facebook is offline for an hour. I don't see most people surviving in extremely harsh environments with no electricity and food scarcities full of chaos and armed conflict. There is a reason why so many people want to migrate to the West and not vice versa.

Sad thing is that a decent income and affordable housing is more than achievable. It are political decisions why this doesn't improve by people either not voting or voting against their own interests. You don't have to blow up an entire system just to increase modest living standards. It's like throwing away the baby with the bath water. The only complicating factor is that the environment shows that there are definite limits to our growth. But even here we must be honest, how many people are sacrficing their vacation for the environment? Exactly.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Congratulations, you can select out exceptions to the rule in human development.
Is that not fair when responding to a claim that seems to ignore the periphery of American and European capitalist imperialism, which provided so much of the resources and labor to build the 'human development' you refer to?
 

stroopwafel

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Is that not fair when responding to a claim that seems to ignore the periphery of American and European capitalist imperialism, which provided so much of the resources and labor to build the 'human development' you refer to?
The youth in Cuba definitely isn't happy though. The country is extremely stagnant and nothing can be accomplished. It's like one giant open air museum. Most would flee to the U.S. or Europe given the opportunity, not counting many already had done so by swimming to Miami.

The youth there also wants sneakers and videogames.
 

Seanchaidh

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The youth in Cuba definitely isn't happy though. The country is extremely stagnant and nothing can be accomplished. It's like one giant open air museum. Most would flee to the U.S. or Europe given the opportunity, not counting many already had done so by swimming to Miami.

The youth there also wants sneakers and videogames.
They won't get them by becoming capitalist and/or selling out to the United States.
 

Thaluikhain

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It's pretty naive to believe it will ever get better than it currently is.
Dunno about that, depends how you define better. Lots of places are currently in an unusually bad way, from certain points of view.

We are at the top of the development pyramid and none(or few) of us ever experienced war, famine or plague.
Yeah, might want to exclude plague from that one.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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You're right that I don't see the conditions in the third world every day. But I do get to see a lot of people that the supposed first world system rejects: The mentally ill, those addicted to drugs, those so ill in various ailments that they can't work and I get to see children grow up in abject poverty way more often then I'd like. Don't think that I don't understand just how fucked up global capitalism is or that I don't want to change it.



The solution to one house being on fire is not to set all the other houses on the street on fire and making everyone homeless. This is literally my entire point. I am not trying to defend capitalism, global "free markets" or all the bad shit it is doing to both humanity and the very planet we live on. My point is that tearing it down without knowing what to replace it with will be worse for everyone. We need to come up with something new (and very fast), but until that thing is in place and has a popular movement behind it, it is folly to fuck over the US stock market for the lulz or start an armed revolution and thinking it will do anything but get a bunch of armed thugs into power instead (or even more likely: just get a lot of people killed for no gain at all).
He was the better option than Trump.



Capitalism at many times has delivered. The postwar period 1945-1970 was probably one of the greatest periods of advancement and social progress ever experienced. Whilst it is dubious we could simply reintroduce those policies (circumstances of the world have changed, and policy must reflect that) clearly capitalism can work to the greater benefit of the masses far more than it does now.

The other thing I would simply ask is what anyone proposes replacing it with. The track record of capitalism's known alternatives all have substantially worse records. I find it hard to believe that a functional successor to capitalism will not be based on the same principles of private ownership and profit (as economies from the dawn of time have generally been). What it seems we don't want is the same rapacious capitalist class we do now: overpowerful billionaires and financial industry, exploitation (human and enviromental), gross wealth imbalance.
Oh, what fantastic fucking timing! I'm so glad you two chose NOW to make your feelings on socialism known rather than tall the times me and others have argued against it on this forum. No, the best time to say it was now, when everyone else that would argue with you is too tired or doesn't care anymore to argue the point. Fucking brilliant!
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Oh, what fantastic fucking timing! I'm so glad you two chose NOW to make your feelings on socialism known rather than tall the times me and others have argued against it on this forum. No, the best time to say it was now, when everyone else that would argue with you is too tired or doesn't care anymore to argue the point. Fucking brilliant!
Um, socialism isn't the absence, or polar opposite of capitalism tho? They can coexist quite comfortably when not strawmanned to hell and back by professional liars.



 
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Specter Von Baren

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I am still very much socialist leaning and, as I believe I've made clear in the past, my vision of an ideal society lies very near a socialistic one. I am a rather traditional social democrat, so my beef lies mostly with violent uprising as the solution to the problems of capitalism. It is not with the idea of shared ownership of the means of production if done within a framework that allows for personal ownership, extensive personal freedoms and protection from tyranny of the masses. Because at the core of it I very much believe that our current system of wealth distribution is very much unsustainable in both the short and the long term and causes much more harm then good.
Oh yes, and we saw how well that social ownership went with Russia. But then again you also think a 2.0 version of a man who never had to work a hard day of labor in his life is what we need to show us the way to a better future for workers.
 

Agema

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Oh, what fantastic fucking timing! I'm so glad you two chose NOW to make your feelings on socialism known rather than tall the times me and others have argued against it on this forum. No, the best time to say it was now, when everyone else that would argue with you is too tired or doesn't care anymore to argue the point. Fucking brilliant!
I have no great objection to democratic socialism, such as represented by most of the European left, although I'm more precisely a social liberal.

I am really not very ideological economically; I think a lot of it is "horses for courses": what gets the job done of delivering for a society. Broadly, I'd take a well-regulated capitalist economy. Providing certain sufficiently egalitarian conditions I'd accept anarcho-capitalism, but I suspect emergent proprties would rapidly render it societally dangerous. If you take a country labouring under a self-interested business class where the lot of the people stagnates, I'm quite happy for a socialist to step in and fix things that the usual capitalist exploiters won't. If you need Stalinist Communism to take over and save your people from extermination by militaristic racists, Stalinism it is (but hopefully we don't ever end up in that situation).

I oppose the idea of socialism as a generic boogeyman, because the vast majority of people raging against it can't draw the difference between anarchism, Communism and democratic socialism, despite there being a vast gulf in practice and conditions between the three.