Prolific "video games make you bad" researcher exposed as planning to refuse to publish his work if it doesn't show video game make you bad + mor

Elijin

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How is, "games can make people sexist" not the same as "games can make you violent?" Both are based on the assumption that merely consuming a piece of media can radically alter a person.
What?

Im no expert on Anita, but I'm pretty sure her message is "Games employ and reinforce sexist ideas" not "Games make you sexist"

Which, yeah. Her techniques were eh and she sucked at picking example cases, but games as a form of media absolutely do that. Just like books and film.

@Avnger
It 100% needed a comma or something in there to break it up. But a good rule is "If something seems outrageous on first read, double check it before being outraged/sucked in"
Which Dwarven did not, because it made for good fodder.
 

CaitSeith

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How is, "games can make people sexist" not the same as "games can make you violent?"
First difference: The anti-games advocates never said "games CAN make you violent", they said "games WILL make you violent, ARE the cause of school shootings and MUST be legally forbidden for children to buy them". It's very different than what Sarkeesian advocated.

Second difference:
Im no expert on Anita, but I'm pretty sure her message is "Games employ and reinforce sexist ideas" not "Games make you sexist"

Which, yeah. Her techniques were eh and she sucked at picking example cases, but games as a form of media absolutely do that. Just like books and film.
The anti-games advocates' argument got defeated in supreme court when it was pointed out that Elementary School books were more violent than most games.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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What?

Im no expert on Anita, but I'm pretty sure her message is "Games employ and reinforce sexist ideas" not "Games make you sexist"

Which, yeah. Her techniques were eh and she sucked at picking example cases, but games as a form of media absolutely do that. Just like books and film.
I admire your optimism, but that particular strawman you cut down will only come back. Without the strawman, uncomfortable questions about our systems and hierarchies are all that's left, pulling at the tendons of self-criticism and awareness, challenging identities built up over years of pride-enforcing propaganda. That is too much unpleasant fuzzies, so the strawman must be rebuilt in as many forms as possible.
 

Specter Von Baren

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First difference: The anti-games advocates never said "games CAN make you violent", they said "games WILL make you violent, ARE the cause of school shootings and MUST be legally forbidden for children to buy them". It's very different than what Sarkeesian advocated.
Don't give me that bullshit, it's been years, drop the gaslighting bullshit that all she was doing was sweetly pouting with her finger to her lip and saying, "Well I don't know, I'm just a pwoor wittle Kickstarter saying they miiiiiiiight cause something."

It was always the same morality policing and scapegoating that these people do.
 

CaitSeith

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It was always the same morality policing and scapegoating that these people do.
It's not the same, and by failing to see that, you aren't only dooming yourself to fail in your approach; but also you may undermine the efforts on keeping the real anti-games advocates on bay.
 
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Elijin

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It's not the same, and by failing to see that, you aren't only dooming yourself to fail in your approach; but also you may undermine the efforts on keeping the real anti-games advocates on bay.
The "problem" is that she represents a critical eye being levelled at our entertainment and culture, to call attention to biases and negative reinforcements.

And Von Spector has repeatedly expressed that he loathes any sort of introspection of that kind.
 

Specter Von Baren

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It's not the same, and by failing to see that, you aren't only dooming yourself to fail in your approach; but also you may undermine the efforts on keeping the real anti-games advocates on bay.
Just saying, "It's not the same" over and over again is not an argument. The fact that you have no argument, no details of how saying that the vast majority of mainstream games everyone played from the 80s to the late 2000s reinforce and influence people to be sexist, again, her net for what games qualified hit almost everything, if you think that isn't saying that the cumulative effect of playing those games all but guarantees that someone's kid has sexist views, from stuff like the original Super fucking Mario Bros., then maybe it's you who's got something wrong because maybe you think that just because people sent hate messages to her that that means she should be right because of some twisted idea if what "fairness" means.
 
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Avnger

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Just saying, "It's not the same" over and over again is not an argument. The fact that you have no argument, no details of how saying that the vast majority of mainstream games everyone played from the 80s to the late 2000s reinforce and influence people to be sexist, again, her net for what games qualified hit almost everything, if you think that isn't saying that the cumulative effect of playing those games all but guarantees that someone's kid has sexist views, from stuff like the original Super fucking Mario Bros., then maybe it's you who's got something wrong because maybe you think that just because people sent hate messages to her that that means she should be right because of some twisted idea if what "fairness" means.
That's a lot of words to express that you have no idea what her videos actually entailed despite having such a rabid hate-boner. Fight on yee culture-warrior!
Repeatedly stating the talking points you've heard from youtube outrage grifters doesn't make you correct...
 

Houseman

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From the Tropes vs Women website:

Funded by a successful Kickstarter campaign supported by 6,968 backers, the Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series aims to examine limiting, sexist patterns associated with female representations in games, and to illuminate how these patterns reinforce and perpetuate harmful attitudes about women in our culture.
Whether or not they're saying "these games need to be banned and we need new legislation!" is irrelevant. They're clearly saying that they contribute to social ills.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Don't create dishonest quote chains.
But Abby wasn't inspired by Anita's comments. Also that was stuck through and instead it was getting a load of death threats in a thread. This is the thread as such so I'm asking where the death threats in here are?

I'm talking about how it was marketed.
It wasn't marketed as an instruction manual teaching people how to kill.

Because I'm not getting into Sarkeesian. Done it before long ago, no interest in doing it again.
So not interested in being critical of Sarkeesian's media output?

Religion is cover under stories. And they are a really bad at showing human nature anyway, since the big ones seem to be pretty harsh on humans sexual desires. We would probably still have wars but how those wars would work might be very different. In "less developed" societies conflicts tend to be more shouting and throwing rocks with a bit of fighting before everyone goes home. Its not till someone really develops tactics that things tend to get bloodier. Once those stories of glory spread then everyone starts doing it and things pick up and conflicts get messier.
I dunno fights in nature can get pretty brutal as an example look up a video of giraffes fighting on youtube.
 

Elijin

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From the Tropes vs Women website:



Whether or not they're saying "these games need to be banned and we need new legislation!" is irrelevant. They're clearly saying that they contribute to social ills.
....yes?
That quote backs up what each of us have said. Also do you understand those words? Perpetuate and reinforce? They dont magically make people sexist, they reinforce existing negative behaviours.
 
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Elijin

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But Abby wasn't inspired by Anita's comments. Also that was stuck through and instead it was getting a load of death threats in a thread. This is the thread as such so I'm asking where the death threats in here are?
Im genuinely curious whether your reading comprehension is shit, or whether you're doubling down because it creates a "winnable" argument for you (that death threats dont exist in this topic. The fact they did being an argument you fabricated).
 

Houseman

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....yes?
That quote backs up what each of us have said. Also do you understand those words? Perpetuate and reinforce? They dont magically make people sexist, they reinforce existing negative behaviours.
There's no difference between "these patterns reinforce and perpetuate harmful attitudes about women in our culture." and "video games make you sexist".

It's just flowery language.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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No, she doesn't.
She kinda does she's just not fully open about it.

Her E3 analysis always has a thing about violent vs non-violent games.

Also




It all sounds very pearl clutching in a Jack Thompson way.


What?

Im no expert on Anita, but I'm pretty sure her message is "Games employ and reinforce sexist ideas" not "Games make you sexist"

Which, yeah. Her techniques were eh and she sucked at picking example cases, but games as a form of media absolutely do that. Just like books and film.

@Avnger
It 100% needed a comma or something in there to break it up. But a good rule is "If something seems outrageous on first read, double check it before being outraged/sucked in"
Which Dwarven did not, because it made for good fodder.
Except the science doesn't bare that out.........

Anita's claims are based on 1 study and to give you an idea where it's bad here's a simple question.

A guy is accused on being inappropriate with a female colleague whom he is in a position of power over.

What should happen to him?

1) Nothing
2) Warning
3) Made to appologise privately
4) Send on a sexual harassment course
5) Made to issue a public apology and send on a sexual harassment awareness course
6) suspended for a period
7) Suspended without pay
8) Fired without sererance
9) Fired and facing and the company helping prosecute him
10) Sent to prison for life without trial


The anti-games advocates' argument got defeated in supreme court when it was pointed out that Elementary School books were more violent than most games.
That's why Anita has been trying to target something other than the legal system. The Comics Code didn't come in from the government but the industry itself. Same with The Hays Code. Moral restrictions imposed by the industry itself.

It's not the same, and by failing to see that, you aren't only dooming yourself to fail in your approach; but also you may undermine the efforts on keeping the real anti-games advocates on bay.
No he's right


After a brief pause and a laugh, Sarkeesian responded: “I would love for companies to have moral restrictions, but they don’t.” She then dove into a multitude of examples of games or movies wherein female characters are used only as devices to show how depraved a male character is, citing specifically Assassin’s Creed: Brotherhood and the Grand Theft Auto series.
The "problem" is that she represents a critical eye being levelled at our entertainment and culture, to call attention to biases and negative reinforcements.

And Von Spector has repeatedly expressed that he loathes any sort of introspection of that kind.
Her criticism is the kind Mary Whitehouse levelled at films and TV shows in the UK in her time. Also a lot of the time it's not honest criticism showing full context E.G. the Tekken Swimsuit DLC where she cut out ~50% of the trailer when she used it. What was in that 50% she cut? The Male Speedo and swimwear.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Repeatedly stating the talking points you've heard from youtube outrage grifters doesn't make you correct...
yes, care to stop doing it?

Anita's criticism is highly dishonest and often doesn't present full context.

E.G. Anita claimed that Lara Croft butt was placed in the centre of the screen.

I've highlighted the centre of the screen here in a screenshot from the footage Anita used
Centre Screen.png

Im genuinely curious whether your reading comprehension is shit, or whether you're doubling down because it creates a "winnable" argument for you (that death threats dont exist in this topic. The fact they did being an argument you fabricated).
I'm reading what was written. It's funny because you and others have read all kinds of fantastical interpretations into what I've said in the past.

But sure we cant' criticise the lady Anita or it's sexism to treat her just like people treated Jack Thompson (hell it could be argued people here are going far easier on her).
 

Elijin

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I thought about giving both your posts a level of engagement they have not earned.

Instead, I present a level of rebuttal that they have earned:

*Prolonged fart noise*
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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I thought about giving both your posts a level of engagement they have not earned.

Instead, I present a level of rebuttal that they have earned:

*Prolonged fart noise*
Don't leave butt prints on the door on your way out of the thread as you storm out because you have no argument left.