Your opinion on hints and guides

[Specter Von Baren]

So I've been going back through my backlog of Giant Bombcast as I stopped listening to a lot of podcasts because of the year we've been through.

Anyway, point is, I came on an episode where they got into a debate about some kind of hint system that, I think it was Sony, would be baked into the console and Jeff was arguing about how such a system would ruin the experience of a lot of games, the primary example they discussed being Fez, while Ben argued the option being there doesn't ruin things.

I found I agree with Jeff. I think that there's a lot of stuff in games that we could solve on our own but that we don't anymore because of how easy it can be to look up the solution to things. I don't think everyone should just grunt through things all the time but I feel like there is a limit to how accessable you can make that kind of information before people start taking the easy way out way more than they normally would and should.

What are your thoughts on this? How far is too far with hints and guide videos?

 

[CriticalGaming]

So I've been going back through my backlog of Giant Bombcast as I stopped listening to a lot of podcasts because of the year we've been through.

Anyway, point is, I came on an episode where they got into a debate about some kind of hint system that, I think it was Sony, would be baked into the console and Jeff was arguing about how such a system would ruin the experience of a lot of games, the primary example they discussed being Fez, while Ben argued the option being there doesn't ruin things.

I found I agree with Jeff. I think that there's a lot of stuff in games that we could solve on our own but that we don't anymore because of how easy it can be to look up the solution to things. I don't think everyone should just grunt through things all the time but I feel like there is a limit to how accessable you can make that kind of information before people start taking the easy way out way more than they normally would and should.

What are your thoughts on this? How far is too far with hints and guide videos?

I'm of the mindset that the more information out there available the better.

Psnprofiles.com has been a huge help in my platinum hunting when it comes to that stuff as people there often post step by step guides to getting trophies.

Guide books have been a part of video gaming for a long time, until most of the information got crowd sourced into the internet itself. GameFAQs and the like.

Nobody has to use guides if they don't want to, and those that don't have the patience or are simply frustratingly stumped can look it up quickly and easily and move on.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I'm of the mindset that the more information out there available the better.

Psnprofiles.com has been a huge help in my platinum hunting when it comes to that stuff as people there often post step by step guides to getting trophies.

Guide books have been a part of video gaming for a long time, until most of the information got crowd sourced into the internet itself. GameFAQs and the like.

Nobody has to use guides if they don't want to, and those that don't have the patience or are simply frustratingly stumped can look it up quickly and easily and move on.

From the way they were talking about it, such a system seemed more for mainline hints to things rather than being there for only the hardest stuff, and the system would be that you can just get to these guides in the game.

 

[tippy2k2]

I'm not sure it all that much matters anymore in the age of The Internet

For myself, I'll use a guide or something on a certain part if I've spent more than 10 minutes and am stuck. I have limited free time and I'm not going to piss it away being frustrated that I can't figure something out in a game (whether it's a "me" problem or the game is just stupid about the solution is irrelevant to me).

I got shit to do game, you can give me a hint or I can just Google it game. I'm fine either way.

 

[happyninja42]

Yeah I don't think the answer is limiting the amount of information, just to make people "earn their fun." The reality is, not everyone processes information, and clues the same way. Anyone whos DM'd a D&D campaign knows, that you can have this really cool mystery, in your head, and to you, the various clues you've laid out for the players to encounter, will OBVIOUSLY tell them who the killer is, but then they get the clues, and for whatever reason, come to the opposite conclusion that you intended. This often happens with video games as well. Maybe I didn't have the camera pointed in the right direction to get the visual clue put into the game, because I was busy looking at some other detail in the opposite direction. Or the clue is not something that I just really picked up out of the entire conversation of information provided.

Other times the devs are just bone stupid and don't put any clues at all in their games.

Or, like my current experience with Age of Calamity, is a difference in desire, between my wife and I. My wife is fairly OCD about completing things. And she's got a bee up her ass about 100% AoC, whereas I couldn't give 2 fucks about that, as we've beaten the story, both times, seen all the narrative content, and all that's left is just bookkeeping. And I have zero patience for that. But SHE, in fact as I'm typing this, she is probably at home right now, finding the last bits of korok shit (oops, I mean seeds), needed to finish the last objective. And she's using a walkthrough, because frankly, stuff like "we're going to force you to run over every inch of EVERY map, and poke your nose into every corner, to find all these things we've intentionally hidden away out of sight" gets annoying, but she can't help but do it. So she gets out a map that tells her where to find it.

Or we'll sit, stumped at a puzzle, and I'll even ask her myself "I have no clue what the game thinks I should do next, to accomplish X, am I missing something? Can you think of anything?" And she'll be like, "Nope, I'm equally stumped." Then it's off to the internet for the answer.

There's also plenty of games that we don't do this with, depending on what it is. Though the trend does seem to be the more obscure and nitpicky the detail is, the less invested we are in trying to suss it out ourselves.

*Edit note* My wife was INDEED playing at the time I was typing that, as she shortly after posting that, sent me a text declaring a celebration, as she had finished that incredibly tedious task, and was joyous about it.

 

[laggyteabag]

Steam already has a similar built-in feature where the Steam overlay immediately shows user-created guides for whatever game you are playing.

Not that I have ever really used it though, because It is already so easy to just ALT+TAB out of a game, or pull out my phone and start googling.

I really struggle with not using guides when I play games though, because just as @tippy2k2 says, I have limited time. Whether or not you are using guides is more of a willpower thing, than an accessibility thing, because they are already accessible enough.

 

[happyninja42]

@laggyteabag

Completely unrelated to the topic, but I saw your name and it reminded me of this question I had upon seeing your name but....

is a "laggyteabag" where you go up to a body in an FPS, but due to your bad connection, when you stop to hump their face, they've already respawned, and thus you are caught by everyone else, just humping the air? because that's what I picture every time I see your name. It's with Halo imagery, specifically a Red vs Blue skit, where one of them just does that for no reason, and they comment about how weird that was.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

The system that seems to be talking about, I would assume requires a sizeable team to be assigned to design and tailor for every game for it to be effective. Which would be a waste of resources for what's already plentily available online. Is plentily a word? I do not know. But it is a google search away, just like almost any game guide. Also, I suspect any team on the case would find it difficult to resist copy-pasting a lot of stuff from the net just to save time on the less respected and/or known titles. An even lazier path would be a clickable link to the search engine results.

 

[happyninja42]

for what's already plentily available online. Is plentily a word? I do not know.

I think you were looking for "readily" available, but we know what you meant

 

[Trunkage]

When I was little, some games I couldn't get past because I couldn't figure it out. Now my daughter, who still might try for hours, sees a video that helps her succeed

I usually use it to see guides on builds as there might be alternatives I'm not thinking off

 

[happyninja42]

When I was little, some games I couldn't get past because I couldn't figure it out. Now my daughter, who still might try for hours, sees a video that helps her succeed

I usually use it to see guides on builds as there might be alternatives I'm not thinking off

Yeah I'll often use it for ideas on builds. Or clarification on how the mechanics of stats work. For example, some games provide you with +% boosts to various stats, but don't show you the numbers sometimes. So it can be hard to figure out if say, you have +50% damage, and then gain another +25% damage item, is that only boosting the base damage, or is it factoring in the now increased +50% into that calculation? Do the stacking bonuses suffer from diminished returns if we're talking about damage reduction? is there a hard/soft cap to the bonuses, that stacking beyond is just a waste of gear bonuses? I dunno, the game doesn't tell me anywhere that I can suss out. So, to YT we go to see a video of someone who actually sat down and did the math on things, because they are the kind of person who likes to build excel spreadsheets to maximize their Idle Clicker game progression.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I am beyond sick and tired of this "you shouldn't be able to say you beat this game unless you beat it the same way I did" mentality. And that's all this really is, because anyone who thinks that tips or guides for a game should be restricted sure as hell isn't concerned about anyone else's enjoyment of a game.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I am beyond sick and tired of this "you shouldn't be able to say you beat this game unless you beat it the same way I did" mentality

That's a thing that exists? Where? I've literally never seen that from anyone unless you want to bring up the difficulty option debate for Souls games.

 

[laggyteabag]

@laggyteabag

Completely unrelated to the topic, but I saw your name and it reminded me of this question I had upon seeing your name but....

is a "laggyteabag" where you go up to a body in an FPS, but due to your bad connection, when you stop to hump their face, they've already respawned, and thus you are caught by everyone else, just humping the air? because that's what I picture every time I see your name. It's with Halo imagery, specifically a Red vs Blue skit, where one of them just does that for no reason, and they comment about how weird that was.

I think the actual origin of my name is one of those things that is lost to time, but im fairly certain that a "laggyteabag" was never actually a thing.

That said, your suspicions are probably correct. I was a big fan of both Halo and RvB back when I originally chose the name, so it is entirely possible that both of those things influenced why I eventually settled on it.

Personally, it is one of those things that I wish was different, as I would probably prefer a less embarrassing(?) name following me around from platform to platform, but it is easier to have one name across everything, than multiple (and lot of platforms charge for a namechange, so fuck that).

Ah well. At least it is nice that I don't just fade into the background, here.

 

[happyninja42]

I think the actual origin of my name is one of those things that is lost to time, but im fairly certain that a "laggyteabag" was never actually a thing.

That said, your suspicions are probably correct. I was a big fan of both Halo and RvB back when I originally chose the name, so it is entirely possible that both of those things influenced why I eventually settled on it.

Personally, it is one of those things that I wish was different, as I would probably prefer a less embarrassing(?) name following me around from platform to platform, but it is easier to have one name across everything, than multiple (and lot of platforms charge for a namechange, so fuck that).

Ah well. At least it is nice that I don't just fade into the background, here.

I understand, the origin of my user name, well, this one anyway, has a very tropey story behind it. It actually just started out with me coming up with 2 random words, and slapping a number at the end to avoid the "this name has been taken already" message many many years ago on some other site. Then, after reading Dr. McNinja, I incorporated the idea that the 42 is not just an homage to Douglas Adams and the Guide, but was his actual number in a Faceless Mook Army, that worked for some villain. And due to the Inverse Ninja Law, his army were all getting their asses kicked by some Hero. Until he got leveled up due to becoming, no longer just Ninja42, he was now the Sole Survivor. And thus was able to win out. There was an entire story arc in Dr. McNinja that revolved around that to some degree, and I just fucking loved it and ran with it.

 

[BrawlMan]

Nothing wrong looking at a guide or difficulty walkthrough. Everyone needs help at some point. As long the source is a legit, I see no problem.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I am beyond sick and tired of this "you shouldn't be able to say you beat this game unless you beat it the same way I did" mentality. And that's all this really is, because anyone who thinks that tips or guides for a game should be restricted sure as hell isn't concerned about anyone else's enjoyment of a game.

That's not my point. So long as there's no competitive element to it, like you aren't doing something to cheat (I mean in the sense of pretending you accomplished something you didn't like speedrun easy mode then edit in the hard mode ending screen or something) I don't care. Like I played through Celeste without using the easy options they provide in that game but I don't begrudge anyone that plays the game how they want. That's my idea of accessibility done right.

I think the current system we have of having guides made by people or websites works fine and should be usable by all, I don't however think easy access videos telling the solutions to things, that the developers are forced to make for the system regardless of what their intent with the game is by the way, is a healthy way to do this. Tips in a game telling you how to use controls or perhaps hints for things to help players not get stuck, that are within the game itself, are good. Guides made by fans or by people whose job it is to make guides are also good in my opinion.

The system suggested was one where it was more like the platform holder was enforcing developers to put these kinds of guides in their games that I take issue with.

 

[wings012]

I think it's down the player, not up to the developers when it comes to guides, spoilers and such. I know people who read the last chapter of a book before finishing it. Or watch the ending of a game before finishing it. Then they feel more motivated to finish the thing knowing the ending is good or whatever. I think they are absolutely bonkers. But it's their choice.

Some game puzzles are absolutely obtuse too or shoehorned in, and I hate having to deal with that crap sometimes so I'm grateful for guides. Back in my pre-internet days I would basically just drop games cause I was stuck.

If most players are turning to guides instead of solving a game puzzle themselves, I'm gonna say it's on the developer for making such a piece of shit puzzle that nobody has fun trying to solve it. It's probably out of place(like token puzzles in action games) or poorly designed.

Games with RPG-mechanics and builds can have really hard to understand and figure out mechanics. Either purposefully obfuscated(which doesn't matter cause players will datamine that shit), or there's just too much random ass gear and skills and no ability to respec so you need to chart your course unless you really want to relevel new characters.

And there's also games just being buggy ass at times, to the point where you can't tell if something is bugged, difficult or you're completely missing something. I think I've encountered games with impassable doors, dead NPCs that shouldn't be dead, invincible enemies and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if I'm missing some sorta quest trigger, whether there's a mechanic to bypass my current trouble but turns out... it was just a friggin bug. Popping up a guide will tell me how that encounter should play out, then I can recognize whether I'm just being retarded or if the game is buggy.

Anyway a baked in system seems kinda dumb and redundant due to how easy it is to just look shit up nowadays.

 

[SckizoBoy]

One person's intuitive is another person's obtuse, I think is the long and short of it, and whether something falls into one category or another is based on their gaming experiences, preferences and how they process what comes up onscreen.

Like, when I play games that have platforming mechanics, I need guides and really obvious ones because I'm colour blind (and since few games have colour blindness support) and literally can't see where the game wants me to go (even in Horizon: Zero Dawn which signposts climbing locations with bright yellow hand-holds, I miss them regularly).

 

[Dalisclock]

One system I've seen that I've liked is where the game devs put a hint system into the game itself where when you clicked on it you'd get a very general hint(sensative to the puzzle you were stuck on) with options for more specific hints before finally giving you the solution 2 or 3 steps down the line. Which gives you the option of deciding how much is enough before pressing on. It wouldn't work for every game but it does give you a middle ground between being stuck and consulting a guide.

I'm also okay with the option to skip a particularly frustrating section(to the next checkpoint) if it's clear you're having problems with it, at least on certain difficult modes. I don't use it very much when it is but I have availed myself once or twice when it was clear I was banging my head against the wall. I'm not saying games have to have that but if they choose to, I'm not going to fault them.