So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

[lil devils x]

Then back to the eternal question.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD I VOTE FOR A CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRAT?!

If they're useless, they don't get votes. Ez-pz. If they won't vote on progressive policies, then they aren't useful to have. Period. You have said absolutely nothing to change my mind on this, you've only agreed with me entirely up to the point where I don't want to empower them anymore and you do. I have no idea why you would do this.

We gave the Dems all the power that was possible in 2008, they squandered it, they showed why they shouldn't be given power unconditionally. They have to work for their power now. If they won't legislate usefully, they won't legislate at all.

Do you live in a conservative majority district? You get what the majority votes for in your district unless you can either convince the conservatives living there to stop drinking the Bernie is a Nazi socialist koolaid or you move enough progressives into the district to change it. You either want to get something done at all or lose everything you have already and get nothing done in the end.

Giving " dems" the power does not mean you give ONLY progressives the power, it just means you give the only progressives in existence in congress the ONLY chance they have to be able to influence any change at all. The alternative though is giving the republicans what they need to take everything the progressives have gained away and making sure progressives can never enact anything again for their lieftime by the GOP court stacking. You act like we have all these choices here, when that is not how this works .. at all. Not giving the democrats the majority just means you prevent progressives from being able to do anything without a constitutional amendment.

Isn't it funny that the republicans don't have to work for anything to get what they want, but democrats have to earn every inch right? The GOP being unified around removing our existing medicare, medicaid and welfare makes it pretty easy for them to do when the progressives have Zero hope of having a majority in congress and yet we have people telling us that it is somehow worth us losing our existing medicare, medicaid and welfare because they couldn't get medicare for all passed exactly how they wanted it.

It should work like this for most reasonable people instead of " my way or the highway" however:
Medicare for all fixed and passed( progressive platform) > ACA , medicare and Medicaid fixed and expanded( Middle platform) > No cuts or expansions( conservative democrat platform) > cuts medicare, medicaid and ACA( Never Trumpers) > Have courts rule medicare, medicaid unconstitutional reducing or eliminating them all together.( The current GOP platform)

THAT is our current reality here. Having both conservatives and progressives agree to the middle platform does not look that bad at the moment considering what we have to choose from in terms of votes required to pass each. One of these things is going to happen regardless of the whose elected, it is just a matter of determining which one you are willing to accept responsibility for making it happen. Our actions are what determine this outcome when we understand the probability of each.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

No one can force you to vote for Biden despite knowing the alternative is far worse. However no one can force others to think very positively of throwing a hissyfit and surrendering the country to Trump just because the Democrats voted to have a candidate that doesn't meet your ideological purity test.

Here's my prediction of what will happen in the next 4 years.

Amazon will not pay taxes. The military budget will go up. We will be at war in the middle east. Private prisons will continue to exist. The cost of healthcare will continue to spiral despite any changes to the ACA. Congress will turn a blind eye to the detaining and torture of suspected terrorists. We will conduct drone strikes. The president will use his praetorian guard to assassinate individuals. The NSA will expand its ability to spy on American citizens. The CIA will conduct psyops on American citizens. There will be less oversight and less transparency. The rich will receive bailouts. Sanders and co. will "compromise" and vote establishment to keep their jobs. The American people will become more impoverished.

Also you will have to vote for the lesser of two evils again.

Right now America's institution are too powerful for any populist strongman to dismantle but by putting Trump in office for another term you risk this no longer being the case.

I'm not concerned about Congress repealing the 22nd Amendment anytime soon. I'm more concerned about the Bushes and Clintons who were supposed to be president.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Do you live in a conservative majority district? You get what the majority votes for in your district unless you can either convince the conservatives living there to stop drinking the Bernie is a Nazi socialist koolaid or you move enough progressives into the district to change it. You either want to get something done at all or lose everything you have already and get nothing done in the end.

Giving " dems" the power does not mean you give ONLY progressives the power, it just means you give the only progressives in existence in congress the ONLY chance they have to be able to influence any change at all. The alternative though is giving the republicans what they need to take everything the progressives have gained away and making sure progressives can never enact anything again for their lieftime by the GOP court stacking. You act like we have all these choices here, when that is not how this works .. at all. Not giving the democrats the majority just means you prevent progressives from being able to do anything without a constitutional amendment.

Isn't it funny that the republicans don't have to work for anything to get what they want, but democrats have to earn every inch right? The GOP being unified around removing our existing medicare, medicaid and welfare makes it pretty easy for them to do when the progressives have Zero hope of having a majority in congress and yet we have people telling us that it is somehow worth us losing our existing medicare, medicaid and welfare because they couldn't get medicare for all passed exactly how they wanted it.

It should work like this for most reasonable people instead of " my way or the highway" however:
Medicare for all fixed and passed( progressive platform) > ACA , medicare and Medicaid fixed and expanded( Middle platform) > No cuts or expansions( conservative democrat platform) > cuts medicare, medicaid and ACA( Never Trumpers) > Have courts rule medicare, medicaid unconstitutional reducing or eliminating them all together.( The current GOP platform)

THAT is our current reality here. Having both conservatives and progressives agree to the middle platform does not look that bad at the moment considering what we have to choose from in terms of votes required to pass each. One of these things is going to happen regardless of the whose elected, it is just a matter of determining which one you are willing to accept responsibility for making it happen. Our actions are what determine this outcome when we understand the probability of each.

Progressives DO win in conservative districts, they reliably do because most progressive policies are popular across the board.

'Critical Victory for the Progressive Movement': Marie Newman Ousts Right-Wing Democrat Dan Lipinski

"This isn't just a loss for one incumbent. It's a defeat for machine politics and big corporate donors who want to stop our movement for Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, and reproductive rights."

www.commondreams.org

In fact the biggest obstacle to progressives winning are Democrats.

'Major Victory for the Progressive Movement' as Congressional Hopeful Kara Eastman Wins Nebraska Primary

"We need people like [Eastman] in Congress to join the fights on healthcare, tackling student debt, and taking on corporate power."

www.commondreams.org

The idea that progressives can't win in conservative districts is total bullshit. The Republicans stand in the way of progress, and the Democrats do too. I won't vote for a conservative candidate. I don't care what the party tag says.

 

[lil devils x]

You are clueless as to what I am talking about

Those squats are not built with a plan in mind and form out of homeless people walking into empty buildings and gathering up together. The squats that I've worked in have people actively work into helping the homeless, organizing the squat while providing .The ones you are talking about have no actual group coherency or problem solving and de-escalation. There's a radical difference between the squats you refer to and the ones I do, and do not mistake them as the same.

As for anything concerning permanent solutions, I don't see why I should repeat myself, we already have a long-working system of mutual aid that has been consistently providing people in need food, clothes and medicine for more than a decade. We have helped addicts receive help and detox. Victims of abuse get psychological help. We have bought, after years of gathering, property to transform into shelters.

You are welcome to work on your permanent solutions, and I will welcome them if the are beneficial. But until then I'm getting people off the streets during winter and making sure they don't die from hypothermia or malnourishment.

I am specifically referring to women being abused and raped in the cutsie " tiny houses" homeless communities, low income apartment complexes and homeless shelters, often by the people who are working with the homeless themselves who are supposed to be helping them along with the other homeless residents. I am talking about supplying individual, permanent, safe housing with access to good schools in low crime areas mixed in with regular housing in affluent areas. Housing they do not have to have to pay for at all themselves with no work requirements. You know, the one thing we have had both democrats and republicans fighting tooth and nail again for generations due to the " not in my backyard" mentality of trying to keep the homeless separated from them. The worst problems are created when they try to put all the homeless in one place.

Many of our homeless are disabled or sick often unable to even afford a proper diagnosis and will not be able to ever have an income at all and we have very little in terms of permanent, healthy, safe housing solutions for people who cannot participate in work programs in existence at all. Even our charity programs here either try to force income or work requirements or put people into temporary shelters, unfit apartments with mold in the walls and vents in high crime areas or try to cram them into these tiny cramped unsafe communities of either trailer parks, or what should be considered sheds, or shipping container houses. None of those should be considered a solution here to solve the problem long term.

 

[Revnak]

I am specifically referring to women being abused and raped in the cutsie " tiny houses" homeless communities, low income apartment complexes and homeless shelters, often by the people who are working with the homeless themselves who are supposed to be helping them along with the other homeless residents.

Did you just imply Neuro is a rapist?

 

[lil devils x]

Progressives DO win in conservative districts, they reliably do because most progressive policies are popular across the board.

'Critical Victory for the Progressive Movement': Marie Newman Ousts Right-Wing Democrat Dan Lipinski

"This isn't just a loss for one incumbent. It's a defeat for machine politics and big corporate donors who want to stop our movement for Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, and reproductive rights."

www.commondreams.org

In fact the biggest obstacle to progressives winning are Democrats.

'Major Victory for the Progressive Movement' as Congressional Hopeful Kara Eastman Wins Nebraska Primary

"We need people like [Eastman] in Congress to join the fights on healthcare, tackling student debt, and taking on corporate power."

www.commondreams.org

The idea that progressives can't win in conservative districts is total bullshit. The Republicans stand in the way of progress, and the Democrats do too. I won't vote for a conservative candidate. I don't care what the party tag says.

LOL@ Thinking that is a republicans district. The last time a republican won that district was in 1973. We have to FIRST take the seat from republicans and ensure they don;t win it back before we can shift it towards a progressive.

ALSO, the other candidate won the primary among democrats, we STILL have to win the general election right?
"In November, Eastman will again face off against Don Bacon, who easily won the Republican primary race Tuesday, securing over 90% of the vote. "

We can talk about how well that goes after that happens, it hasn't happened yet. I hope she wins, we really need the seat right now, but considering her opponent won with over 90% of the vote, her winning looks very unlikely. You are celebrating a very likely progressive loss here. Winning primaries is useless unless we can flip the seat with a candidate the voters in that district will vote for.

Putting up people who lose over and over again int he general election does not do anything to help us here and just wastes time and money.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Ah, but that is the trap, is it not? It's always about the *immediate* moment. Never mind every moment that came before it.

But to use your example. You are not driving anything. In voting for whomever is passed to you, you have relinquished the keys to your car and are going on a ride with whoever the keys end up with, even if it's the creepy gropey senile uncle. You could have, at any point in the past four years, taken the car and left and found other people to work with and build a car movement and collectively drive down that alternative back when that choice was the immediate future.

It's not the trap, because we literally have 5 months until the election, it's a legitimate question of practicality: what would even allow us a different option *right now*?

Also, I did support someone else in the past four years so that comparison doesn't work. What you're ignoring is that people did try, at this point in time it is no longer a viable option. Even the most idealistic people here aren't laying out a plan to actually get someone not Trump or Biden as President right now.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I don’t want to talk within the dull, brain rotting framework of liberal electoralism. I want to point out the utter absurdity of believing that we are in a binary reality where the choices are two rapists who will kill all of us to please a South African billionaire. I’d rather hold them accountable by refusing to support either, among other activities of varying degrees of legality.

So instead you're gonna what, pretend to be superior by giving trollish answers that don't form an actual way to communicate with people and jack off about other people not knowing what's going on in your home town?

I mean, asking you for the alternative where we don't get either, because as it stands we live in a binary reality where we do get one or the other. Your 'holding them accountable' does not seem like it's going to prevent that, nor do I see how it actually effectively does so in a way that makes any difference.

 

[lil devils x]

Did you just imply Neuro is a rapist?

No, I am talking about the women I have treated at the women's and children's center here that have been raped and abused by the volunteers at these other shelters and communities. In our shelter, however, no men are allowed in past the razer wire fence and Sheriff's department guarding the gate, and even then we have had men who paid other women to come in and try to convince their victims to go outside the gate. The sheriff's guards and the razer wire was added for the safety of everyone there after multiple attempts on the lives of the women and children in the shelter by the men who intend to kidnap them or kill them. We have to keep them alive long enough to get them into the safe houses or they will never even make it that far.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

LOL@ Thinking that is a republicans district. The last time a republican won that district was in 1973. We have to FIRST take the seat from republicans and ensure they don;t win it back before we can shift it towards a progressive.

You really don't read, do you? The person she ousted is anti-abortion, anti-lgbt, anti-healthcare, against raising the minimum wage, and so on. She ousted a Republican. That he had a D next to his name was immaterial.

ALSO, she won the primary among democrats, we STILL has to win the general election right?
"In November, Eastman will again face off against Don Bacon, who easily won the Republican primary race Tuesday, securing over 90% of the vote. "

We can talk about how well that goes after that happens, it hasn't happened yet. I hope she wins, we really need to seat right now, but considering her opponent won with over 90% of the vote, her winning looks very unlikely. You are celebrating a very likely progressive loss here. Winning primaries is useless unless we can flip the seat with a candidate the voters in that district will vote for.

Putting up people who lose over and over again int he general election does not do anything to help us here and just wastes time and money.

And the second lady nearly won the last time she ran, but if you had actually read the links you'd know the Democrat party dropped her and withdrew all their support of her. And then she still nearly won.

Because the Democrat party are the biggest obstacles to progressives, fuck them and fuck their supporters.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I can't wait to find out that Dems will pass an even worse bill without a Trump veto-- or any fanfare.

 

[Revnak]

So instead you're gonna what, pretend to be superior by giving trollish answers that don't form an actual way to communicate with people and jack off about other people not knowing what's going on in your home town?

How much communication is allowed within the confines of liberal electoralism? Certainly can’t get what I want there, presuming I am to believe the last two centuries of leftist theory and history can be believed. So yeah, I’ll communicate along my framework rather than lending even the slightest credibility to the insane notion that supporting Biden with and adopting all the cultural symbols of a good liberal will save my eternal soul and bring us through these trying times.

I mean, asking you for the alternative where we don't get either, because as it stands we live in a binary reality where we do get one or the other. Your 'holding them accountable' does not seem like it's going to prevent that, nor do I see how it actually effectively does so in a way that makes any difference.

Maybe it will next time. Maybe I'll do other shit between now and then to make it have an affect by next time. Maybe there won’t be a next time. Fuck, there may not be a this time. But with whatever meager power my presidential vote allows me I will spit in both their faces, and commit to other actions to deal with the disastrous results of the election of either of them.

 

[lil devils x]

With all of Obama's faults, one of the few things he got right was his move to expand low income housing in affluent areas:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/28/hundreds-of-thousands-of-poor-americans-will-soon-be-able-to-move-to-better-areas-thanks-to-this-judge/

It is a start in the right direction, we just need to be able to expand on this. To really solve the problem we need to do away with piled up low income housing and instead use housing vouchers and spread out low income/ no income families throughout the general neighborhoods to where neighbors will not know who is and who is not low income. We need to do away with Section 8 zoning requirement BS and allow the vouchers to be used on any property anywhere.

 

[Revnak]

No, I am talking about the women I have treated at the women's and children's center here that have been raped and abused by the volunteers at these other shelters and communities. In our shelter, however, no men are allowed in past the razer wire fence and Sheriff's department guarding the gate, and even then we have had men who paid other women to come in and try to convince their victims to go outside the gate. The sheriff's guards and the razer wire was added for the safety of everyone there after multiple attempts on the lives of the women and children in the shelter by the men who intend to kidnap them or kill them. We have to keep them alive long enough to get them into the safe houses or they will never even make it that far.

This still isn’t walking it back. Walk it back. You can say there is extensive sexual abuse within homeless communities, often by those who try to help them, without implying that the people who try and set up voluntary support networks for them are abusers. After all, I can easily point to a long history of sexual abuse among medical professionals like yourself or various analogous government or charitable services to your proposed solution.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

With all of Obama's faults, one of the few things he got right was his move to expand low income housing in affluent areas:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/28/hundreds-of-thousands-of-poor-americans-will-soon-be-able-to-move-to-better-areas-thanks-to-this-judge/

It is a start in the right direction, we just need to be able to expand on this. To really solve the problem we need to do away with piled up low income housing and instead use housing vouchers and spread out low income/ no income families throughout the general neighborhoods to where neighbors will not know who is and who is not low income. We need to do away with Section 8 zoning requirement BS and allow the vouchers to be used on any property anywhere.

If this is about the lol's, it's because the idea of direct action being tossed aside for sitting on your ass for 4 years and just voting is the most laughable position. Here's someone who helps people and has helped people for a while if they're telling the truth (and I do believe them), and you're saying it doesn't count and conflating what he does with rapists.

It's laughable, but also really horrible.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

How much communication is allowed within the confines of liberal electoralism? Certainly can’t get what I want there, presuming I am to believe the last two centuries of leftist theory and history can be believed. So yeah, I’ll communicate along my framework rather than lending even the slightest credibility to the insane notion that supporting Biden with and adopting all the cultural symbols of a good liberal will save my eternal soul and bring us through these trying times.

Yeah, this is just a bunch of baloney to cover for just being plain rude and not actually trying to discuss things. Nothing about this communication issue has to do with liberal electoralism, it's just you being kind of a dick in how you communicate, making points you don't appear to care about or explain and dumb gotchas about things I'd have no reason to know about like your home town.

It's not a 'framework' it's just outright not communicating and has nothing to do with Biden.

Maybe it will next time. Maybe I'll do other shit between now and then to make it have an affect by next time. Maybe there won’t be a next time. Fuck, there may not be a this time. But with whatever meager power my presidential vote allows me I will spit in both their faces, and commit to other actions to deal with the disastrous results of the election of either of them.

Why all these maybes? For someone who says they're not an idealist, you don't seem to care the least about the practical and find 'maybes' to justify whatever you wanted.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This still isn’t walking it back. Walk it back. You can say there is extensive sexual abuse within homeless communities, often by those who try to help them, without implying that the people who try and set up voluntary support networks for them are abusers. After all, I can easily point to a long history of sexual abuse among medical professionals like yourself or various analogous government or charitable services to your proposed solution.

Maybe there can be extensive sexual abuse without it being an accusation concerning every single one. Like imagine trying to hold the issue of sexual abuse among medical professionals as some kind of bargaining chip, that's just disgusting. It can be an issue without implicating everyone in it and she brought it up because she was suggesting that a certain solution was a bad solution (squats) and this was a reason for it. That doesn't mean a negative intent for anyone involved, it means she sees a problem play out with the solution. Holy pearl clutching batman

 

[Revnak]

Yeah, this is just a bunch of baloney to cover for just being plain rude and not actually trying to discuss things. Nothing about this communication issue has to do with liberal electoralism, it's just you being kind of a dick in how you communicate, making points you don't appear to care about or explain and dumb gotchas about things I'd have no reason to know about like your home town.

It's not a 'framework' it's just outright not communicating and has nothing to do with Biden.

Dude, that was one line about the hometown. My point was that gun confiscation will embolden a small army of militia freaks to make our lives hell. As for rudeness, I find the presumption that I have to vote for Biden or Trump to be rude, that I must pick my torturer. It's very cruel and sadistic if you ask me. As for the maybes, point is that Biden’s “better platform” (that he is certainly lying about) is probably meaningless. There’s little guarantee he even is the incrementally preferable alternative to Trump given the inevitable conservative reaction that will follow his victory, particularly given that he and his campaign give zero fucks about the people who would create that chaos and are exclusively interested in courting the whitest, richest, pleasantest among them.

 

[Revnak]

Holy pearl clutching batman

I have never even seen a pearl.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Dude, that was one line about the hometown. My point was that gun confiscation will embolden a small army of militia freaks to make our lives hell. As for rudeness, I find the presumption that I have to vote for Biden or Trump to be rude, that I must pick my torturer. It's very cruel and sadistic if you ask me. As for the maybes, point is that Biden’s “better platform” (that he is certainly lying about) is probably meaningless. There’s little guarantee he even is the incrementally preferable alternative to Trump given the inevitable conservative reaction that will follow his victory, particularly given that he and his campaign give zero fucks about the people who would create that chaos and are exclusively interested in courting the whitest, richest, pleasantest among them.

Then why the hell don't you just say what your issue is if I don't get it off whatever hints because I know jack shit about where you live??

I didn't presume anything about who you have to vote for. I've stated who is likely to win, I've said nothing about what you *have* to do so if you're so horribly offended by anything regarding that that I said, then that's the fault of your own reading of it.

So to boil down the latter bit, your issue also includes that you think the reaction from conservative voters if Biden wins will worsen the situation and things like gun confiscation (which ftr I'm pretty sure seems unlikely) is gonna cause push back that's worse for people overall?