WandaVision

[SilentPony]

Overall, I liked the show, but the finale seemed abrupt.

My biggest issue is just how many plot points weren't given that final what/why explanation, and just kind of ended - like, was Hayward really just a asshole? Was Evan Peters' "Pietro" really just there to make a dick joke? Monica Rambeau went back into the Hex, got her superpowers (which I think she kept?), and then... just stood around doing nothing?

I think it could have benefitted from an extra episode, or spent less time pissing about with the sitcom gimmick, at the beginning.

I'd say it was a good show, and I really enjoyed my time watching it, but it is definitely one of those "about the journey, not the destination" things. I also expected more from how the show would shake up the MCU going forward.

Also, this is the second time that the MCU has cock teased the multiverse, and I no longer think it is funny. Doctor Strange 2 The Multiverse of Madness had better actually be about the multiverse, or im never going to trust Marvel again.

Not to mention Darcy and a bunch of other Agents were pulled into the Hex. Did they get powers too? And what explanation did we get for Darcy abandoning her Government post and going AWOL? Briefings are for squares, and she didn't even tell that to Jimmy the character she had the most chemistry with. The entire show smacks of being filmed around the actor's other schedules, like we only have Evan Peters for 2 days, and we don't have Paul Bettany or Kat Dennings on set so we can't have them directly interact, and we can't have him be Quicksilver because we haven't planned out the Xmen movies yet so I guess go for the dick joke.

And as far as trusting Marvel, this is to my recollection the third time they've pulled with bullshit switcheroo on us. First was Iron Man 3 when the Mandarin was just a dude. And then Spider Man 2 when multiverse Mysterio was just a dude. And now alternate Quicksilver from the X-Men universe was...just a dude.
At this point when Tom Holland says absolutely no, the other spidermen aren't in Spiderman 3, I fully believe him.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

It started off with Marvel doing Pleasantville and ended on Marvel doing Marvel. It was about what I expected. They're getting better at writing women, for whatever that's worth.

 

[laggyteabag]

And as far as trusting Marvel, this is to my recollection the third time they've pulled with bullshit switcheroo on us. First was Iron Man 3 when the Mandarin was just a dude. And then Spider Man 2 when multiverse Mysterio was just a dude. And now alternate Quicksilver from the X-Men universe was...just a dude.

I have no issues with Marvel doing the "this guy isn't who they say they are" switcheroo, when it has a fun, or interesting payoff.

Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for making The Mandarin just some actor, but I maintain that was one of the best twists that the MCU has ever done, and I find it endlessly entertaining on rewatches. The same goes for Far From Home's Mysterio.

The only reason why Evan Peters' "Pietro" is so frustrating, is because Marvel knew exactly what they were implying when they cast him, and for the payoff to just be a "gotcha!" dick joke... its pretty disappointing.

 

[SilentPony]

I have no issues with Marvel doing the "this guy isn't who they say they are" switcheroo, when it has a fun, or interesting payoff.

Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for making The Mandarin just some actor, but I maintain that was one of the best twists that the MCU has ever done, and I find it endlessly entertaining on rewatches. The same goes for Far From Home's Mysterio.

The only reason why Evan Peters' "Pietro" is so frustrating, is because Marvel knew exactly what they were implying when they cast him, and for the payoff to just be a "gotcha!" dick joke... its pretty disappointing.

See I would argue you can say the exact same thing about the Mandarin and the Multiverse in Spiderman 2 that you can say about Evan Peters.
Marvel knew full well what they were implying with saying the Mandarin, Iron Man's greatest villain, would finally be coming to the MCU only to just be "gotcha!" its not real.
And Spiderman with the snap opening a whole in reality and possible Multiverse only for it to be a "gotcha!" its not real.
Evan Peters is no different. If anything its less egregious because at least they didn't say in the show this is the X-Men Quicksilver.
In Iron Man 3 they do call him the Mandarin, in Spiderman 2 they do say the Multiverse is real.

Yeah Marvel implied with the casting of Evan Peters, and its a cocktease for sure, but at least it was just implied. The other times they straight up promise something, and then don't deliver.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I think Disney in general is great at pretending they make movies and shows that are way more interesting and exciting than they end up being. They basically made 20 something Marvel movies out of the same 2 or 3 templates.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for making The Mandarin just some actor, but I maintain that was one of the best twists that the MCU has ever done, and I find it endlessly entertaining on rewatches. The same goes for Far From Home's Mysterio.

Iron Man 3's plot twist thudded for me not because of the twist in and of itself, but for the fact they made Killian such a unidimensional, paper-thin, character cut from the same "people with grudges against Tony for his shady arms manufacturer past" cloth. A lot of people gave Iron Man 2 shit for writing Whiplash poorly and not giving Micky Rourke breathing room or depth, but at least Sam Rockwell was entertaining as Justin Hammer.

I mean as far as Mysterio goes, he literally is "just some dude". He's an evil Adam Savage, that's it. How much of a plot twist is it really for the movie's villain to be...you know, true to character?

 

[laggyteabag]

See I would argue you can say the exact same thing about the Mandarin and the Multiverse in Spiderman 2 that you can say about Evan Peters.
Marvel knew full well what they were implying with saying the Mandarin, Iron Man's greatest villain, would finally be coming to the MCU only to just be "gotcha!" its not real.
And Spiderman with the snap opening a whole in reality and possible Multiverse only for it to be a "gotcha!" its not real.
Evan Peters is no different. If anything its less egregious because at least they didn't say in the show this is the X-Men Quicksilver.
In Iron Man 3 they do call him the Mandarin, in Spiderman 2 they do say the Multiverse is real.

Yeah Marvel implied with the casting of Evan Peters, and its a cocktease for sure, but at least it was just implied. The other times they straight up promise something, and then don't deliver.

As I say, I don't have a problem with gotcha! moments, so long as they have payoff. This is ultimately what makes Mysterio and the Mandarin good (despite comic accuracy), and "Pietro"... not so good.

If they promise X, but deliver Y, so long as the alternative is interesting, then all is fine. That is the point of a good twist, after all.

The Mandarin in Iron Man 3 was great, because you spend the entire film setting up this horrible terrorist doing all of this awful shit, then gotcha! He isn't actually the villain at all, but just some guy hired to put on a performance. The real villain was actually this other dude the whole time! There was payoff.

Mysterio in FFH was great, because he comes in, weaving this grand tale about how he is this superhero from another earth, and now he is on this earth, fighting the same threat and gotcha! everything is lies, the multiverse stuff is all bunk, and he is just trying to get back at Tony Stark. There was payoff.

With Evan Peters - yeah, they never actually say it - but it is heavily implied to the viewer that this is the same guy from the X-Men movies, and gotcha! He is just some random dude with a dick joke for a last name. No ulterior motive. No plan. No recognition. No payoff.

It also bothers me, because these characters seemingly have no knowledge of the Fox X-Men universe (or any other universe, for that matter), so why did Agnes make this random guy Pietro, and why did Wanda just believe it? If he was just some random dude this entire time, the only people that this fooled was the audience. The characters in the show would have, and should have known better.

Iron Man 3's plot twist thudded for me not because of the twist in and of itself, but for the fact they made Killian such a unidimensional, paper-thin, character cut from the same "people with grudges against Tony for his shady arms manufacturer past" cloth.

This is the true problem with the Mandarin reveal.

I don't feel like the Mandarin being fake is really the problem, only that the actual villain is so boring in comparison. If Killian was actually interesting, I feel like the Mandarin twist would have been better received.

 

[SilentPony]

SNIP

See I disagree entirely on Mandarin and Mysterio. If the problem with Evan Peter's Quicksilver is that everyone should have known better, then the same should apply to Iron Man 3 and Spiderman 2.

The Mandarin, a world class terrorists who goes on world wide TV, hijacking radio and TV broadcasts to threaten the President, is just an actor. And no one recognized him? His family, friends, coworkers, fellow actors? No one was like "Oh hey isn't that Bill from Tuesday's Improv class?" and with Marvel tech and facial recognition the fact this dude is an actor and not a terrorist blindsiding Iron Man? Seriously? This man found out who Peter was, and Peter was wearing a mask.

Mysterio. He's just an ex-Stark tech, and gave presentations on his BARF technology, and no one figured it out? No one in Shield was like "Oh hey, isn't that Steve from R&D?" Shield has agents all over Stark Tech and no one recognized one of their lead scientists? And then the multiverse, it could be forgiven if Nick Fury or Hill were tricked, but they weren't those two. They were Skrulls, from their orbiting space fortress. They easily should have been able to tell of the space/time continuum was ruptured and if the elementals were real.

That's the problem with those twists, they're not meant for the story, they're meant to fool the audience. We didn't see the Mandarin being a red herring, but Tony should have. We didn't see the Multiverse being a red herring, but Shield, Sword and the Skrulls should have.

And not just that, the twists didn't lead anywhere. The Mandarin isn't real, instead we get...another jilted lover and another enemy from Iron Man's past. That twist doesn't justify the twist. Simply not seeing something coming doesn't mean its a good twist.
They wasted a real villain in the Mandarin for a shit villain in Killian. Same with the multiverse in Spiderman 2. I like that Mysterio was a fraud, because that's his character, but they should have kept the Multiverse part, because the twist that there is no multiverse only hampered Marvel. The Multiverse is the next logical step for them, and they went out of there way to explain its not happening, even if Dr. Strange 2 claims to be about it. Its poor story telling masquerading as clever writing.

 

[laggyteabag]

The Mandarin, a world class terrorists who goes on world wide TV, hijacking radio and TV broadcasts to threaten the President, is just an actor. And no one recognized him? His family, friends, coworkers, fellow actors? No one was like "Oh hey isn't that Bill from Tuesday's Improv class?" and with Marvel tech and facial recognition the fact this dude is an actor and not a terrorist blindsiding Iron Man? Seriously? This man found out who Peter was, and Peter was wearing a mask.

IIRC the organisation behind the Mandarin/Killian paid for a pretty comprehensive plastic surgery/"make this person unrecognisable" package for the guy, so that exactly what you describe does not happen.

I'd imagine the reason why Stark was able to figure out that Peter was Spider-Man, and couldn't do the same for the Mandarin, is because, well, Peter is a 15 year old kid, and the Mandarin had the backing of a massive corporation.

Mysterio. He's just an ex-Stark tech, and gave presentations on his BARF technology, and no one figured it out? No one in Shield was like "Oh hey, isn't that Steve from R&D?" Shield has agents all over Stark Tech and no one recognized one of their lead scientists? And then the multiverse, it could be forgiven if Nick Fury or Hill were tricked, but they weren't those two. They were Skrulls, from their orbiting space fortress. They easily should have been able to tell of the space/time continuum was ruptured and if the elementals were real.

I can imagine that was probably a question that was raised at some point during the relationship between Mysterio and Fury's crew (not SHIELD), but someone from an alternate universe having the same name/face as someone from your universe is kind of something that comes with the territory.

Again, seeing as this whole thing was in-depth planned out by Mysterio's crew, It stands to reason that they also came up with some alibi to explain this away.

Also, AFAIK the Skrull don't really have much dealing with the multiverse - or at least it isn't setup within the MCU that they do, which would explain why they didn't notice, either.

And not just that, the twists didn't lead anywhere. The Mandarin isn't real, instead we get...another jilted lover and another enemy from Iron Man's past. That twist doesn't justify the twist. Simply not seeing something coming doesn't mean its a good twist. They wasted a real villain in the Mandarin for a shit villain in Killian.

As I said in another reply, I don't feel like The Mandarin not being real is the actual issue here. The issue is that the twist makes way for a second, less interesting villain. So I would concede that the IM3 twist isn't as effective as it could be.

If the real Iron Man 3 villain was actually good, I don't think that we would be having this conversation.

Same with the multiverse in Spiderman 2. I like that Mysterio was a fraud, because that's his character, but they should have kept the Multiverse part, because the twist that there is no multiverse only hampered Marvel. The Multiverse is the next logical step for them, and they went out of there way to explain its not happening, even if Dr. Strange 2 claims to be about it. Its poor story telling masquerading as clever writing.

This one is a bit weird, I do admit.

I don't think we could have had a true-to-character Mysterio, with him also directly revealing the multiverse, so I suppose I should have seen this twist a mile away, because Mysterio doesn't really have anything to do with the multiverse, AFAIK.

It is my bad as someone with a passing knowledge of comic characters for getting sucked into this theory, but the character and this twist is absolutely perfect for the context of the movie, and I absolutely love the reveal scene in the bar.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It is my bad as someone with a passing knowledge of comic characters for getting sucked into this theory, but the character and this twist is absolutely perfect for the context of the movie, and I absolutely love the reveal scene in the bar.

That's the one where he explains the plan to the people who already know about it, right?

 

[SilentPony]

That's the one where he explains the plan to the people who already know about it, right?

Not just explains the plan, spends a good 5 minutes introducing everyone who has been working together for a few years with...everyone.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Not just explains the plan, spends a good 5 minutes introducing everyone who has been working together for a few years with...everyone.

Right. That was a sorry excuse for frontloading exposition. People complain about it in Nolan movies but at least in those someone acts as an audience surrogate.

 

[Eacaraxe]

The Multiverse is the next logical step for them, and they went out of there way to explain its not happening, even if Dr. Strange 2 claims to be about it. Its poor story telling masquerading as clever writing.

It wasn't "word of god" there was no multiverse, that didn't come from anyone authoritative within the context of the MCU. That came from Beck's rogue gallery as a cover story to sell Mysterio. They knew after human civilization went over the course of a decade to discovering the existence of borderline-unlimited green energy, aliens, transhumanism, a hypertechnologically-advanced civilization in Africa based upon a previously-undiscovered (or at least, not publicly disclosed) metal, and faster-than-light travel, culminating in one of these aliens being able to literally disappear half the population of the universe for five years before their equally-mysterious spontaneous return thanks to time travel, the existence of a multiverse isn't exactly a difficult pill to swallow.

Again, Mysterio is literally "just some guy". He's a con man with a really cool toolbelt and the occasional psychoactive drugs. No shit he'd pick a cover story the general public would buy after the decade of shit they've seen.

Meanwhile, all the MCU characters in a position to know, and/or theorize, basically all say "yeah the multiverse exists". Hell it's been outright stated in at least two movies by characters who would know far better than any other (Doctor Strange and Endgame). The Loki series is literally predicated upon it, because an alternate universe Loki fucked with the timeline, stealing the Tesseract when Tony, Bruce, Steve, and Scott returned to the events of the first Avengers. Which, by the way, is literally the same sequence in literally the same film when literally the same character explains the existence of the multiverse the second time in the MCU.

That doesn't make Mysterio more than he is. He's still evil Adam Savage. He picked a cover story that had the benefit of accidentally being right.

I don't feel like the Mandarin being fake is really the problem, only that the actual villain is so boring in comparison. If Killian was actually interesting, I feel like the Mandarin twist would have been better received.

The problem with it (and by extension, the two Spider-Man movies thus far) is it's nothing audiences hadn't seen. Dude has grudge against Tony, dude fucks with technology equivalent to Tony's, Tony (and later, Tony surrogate Peter) punches him.

Iron Man 2 felt way more sensibly-written, at least in my mind, because Stark Industries' sudden departure from the defense industry would have left a market vacuum...a market vacuum made infinitely worse by Tony's development of the Iron Man suit, and refusal to share it or hold himself accountable in some way to the government or general public. Like it or not, Tony was unstable, chaotic, and untrustworthy. Remember, in Iron Man Stark Industries was publicly revealed to be illegally trading weapons systems to terrorists. No shit someone like Justin Hammer was ready and willing to step into that power vacuum, and do what was necessary to fill it.

That whole "overwhelmingly advanced alien race invades New York" thing would have been all the more aggravation to an already unstable and unsustainable situation.

 

[laggyteabag]

That's the one where he explains the plan to the people who already know about it, right?

If you want to strip the scene of context, and that is how you want to describe it - then, sure?

Its not a straight "Step 1, Step 2..."

Its framed as a toast "Lets all toast Johnny, because he created this technology, and if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have gotten this far!”, etc

The scene does its job, and it does its job well. In 5 minutes, it is revealed that Mysterio isn't who he says he is, and we also find out what they are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it, etc. And because the energy is high, and Gyllenhaal is suitably hamming it up, and obviously having a great time, it never feels like a boring exposition dump.

Is it Shakespeare? No.

Is it suitably hammy/fun? Yes!

But ultimately, this is Marvel. It is hammy, cheesy, fun. The main villain is dressed in a green spandex suit, surrounded by robots, waving a bottle of alcohol around, and having a great time. It doesn't need to be a perfectly written masterpiece, it just needs to meet the criteria of "is this fun, and does this make sense?", and I would argue that scenes like these do a great job.

Marvel movies aren't above (or below) criticism, but I feel like people sometimes forget what they are criticising.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

If you want to strip the scene of context, and that is how you want to describe it - then, sure?

Its not a straight "Step 1, Step 2..."

Its framed as a toast "Lets all toast Johnny, because he created this technology, and if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have gotten this far!”, etc

The scene does its job, and it does its job well. In 5 minutes, it is revealed that Mysterio isn't who he says he is, and we also find out what they are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it, etc. And because the energy is high, and Gyllenhaal is suitably hamming it up, and obviously having a great time, it never feels like a boring exposition dump.

Is it Shakespeare? No.

Is it suitably hammy/fun? Yes!

But ultimately, this is Marvel. It is hammy, cheesy, fun. The main villain is dressed in a green spandex suit, surrounded by robots, waving a bottle of alcohol around, and having a great time. It doesn't need to be a perfectly written masterpiece, it just needs to meet the criteria of "is this fun, and does this make sense?", and I would argue that scenes like these do a great job.

Marvel movies aren't above (or below) criticism, but I feel like people sometimes forget what they are criticising.

I know exactly what I'm criticising - artless pop garbage especially grown in a vat for easy reproduction and maximum profit. And about expository dialogue: you're not supposed to realize it's there. A good writer feeds you information without making it look like information.

 

[SilentPony]

So I've been...not brooding over WandaVision, but processing it and I still have questions and feel unsatisfied with the story they told.

Why did Director Hayward send Monica to Westview? He clearly doesn't like her, and knew Wanda didn't have Vision so why bother telling her? Why bring her in? Why did he care at all what happens to the town, or Wanda?
Why is White/Phantom Vision not just Ultron? I know in the comics Vision has a different backstory, but in the MCU Ultron + the mind stone = Vision, and now Vision doesn't have the mind stone.
Why did White Vision leave? He has all the memories now, he knows he loves Wanda, why did he leave?
Who is Ralph? Is he the guy in witness protection or is he just a dick joke? We know he can't be X-men Quicksilver, the timing doesn't line up.
Who was the couple in the commercials? I thought it would be Wanda's parents, but nope.
What was the reason for the Dottie character? Why would Wanda's Chaos magic make a ***** character?
Why did they play up Monica's male engineering friend just for it to be a random woman?
Why introduce the Pietro character and tease the X-men universe if they're going to firmly close the door on it?
Hayward shows Wanda Visions corpse, and then I think it was 9 days later he brings Monica and the others in to help with the Hex. Okay, sure. But they have been experimenting on Vision for the last 5 years, since his death in Infinity War, and then like the next day White Vision is fully assembled from the body. So...what were they doing the past 5 years that they managed to finish in a handful of days that led to White Vision?

I mean it almost feels like worse that sloppy storytelling, it feels like dishonest storytelling.

 

[laggyteabag]

I know exactly what I'm criticising - artless pop garbage especially grown in a vat for easy reproduction and maximum profit. And about expository dialogue: you're not supposed to realize it's there. A good writer feeds you information without making it look like information.

Well you say you know exactly what Marvel films are, yet here you are criticising an MCU film for how it convey's exposition, and what a "good writer" should be doing instead, etc etc.

I'd say that is a fruitless effort.

As you say, the MCU films are mass-produced. They're fast food. They're not made to change lives, or demonstrate the best of the artform, or win awards, or whatever. I see no value in criticising a film, based on aspects that we already know they aren't going to excel at, because that isn't what MCU film is trying to achieve or accomplish.

They need to have good pacing, good action, and they need to exist in the continuity that they have established - ie, no retcons, nobody acting out of character, etc. They also, of course, just need to be fun.

I don't want to be the arbiter of what counts as criticism, but I see a lot more value in the questions that @SilentPony posed in his last post, than criticising the structure of the film, because, again, thats not the point.

If you want to hold the MCU films to a higher standard, I guess that is your prerogative, but I can't imagine that you are going to be satisfied with the MCU, anytime soon. My lizard brain just wants to see larger than life characters, with absurd superhero names, throw down with a 10ft tall alien, who just wiped out half of the universe, and all of the melodrama that ensues.

The MCU is doing an exceptional job at catering to my incredibly low-bar expectations for the franchise. Im having a great time.

 

[sXeth]

What I'd take away as the big elephant in the room.


Where was Dr Strange in all this? Yeah, we all know the RL reasons probably behind that.


If Agatha could detect what Wanda was doing .... why wouldn't the guys who is literally tasked with dealing with this kind of out of control magical junk happening be around to have a look at it. Or even one of the other hundreds of sorcerors (who might be cheaper/more logistacll feasible actors to pull in).

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I enjoyed it overall. I really wish they stuck with the sitcom tropes and did all the "superhero" stuff within that sitcom setting vs just going straight Marvel. Having a wacky witch fight inside a sitcom vs just doing a witch fight would've been far more interesting and kept with the style. It kinda feels like half the show was "this" and the other half was "that".

Also, why were people expecting major Marvel character/plot drops? I was just expecting a personal story of Wanda mainly and got that, and maybe they do a little minor thing at the end hinting at something like pretty much all the movies do. I don't pay attention to anything surrounding a show or movie, I just watch it and that's pretty much it. I like Marvel and all but I really couldn't care less about paying attention to rumors or playing the guessing game when I've really only loved like 5 or so of the movies.

Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for making The Mandarin just some actor, but I maintain that was one of the best twists that the MCU has ever done, and I find it endlessly entertaining on rewatches.

How was that a twist? If you seen like 10 movies in your whole life, you'd know from the 1st scene who the bad guy is. I don't even know Iron Man comics or the character and I knew who the bad guy was after the first scene of the movie.

 

[SilentPony]

Also come to think of it, Agents of Shield did a whole Darkhold storyline. I guess WandaVision just renders AoS noncanon?