Hogwarts Legacy Will Allow For Transgender Characters

[CriticalGaming]

If you repeatedly misgender someone to the point of harassment, then yes it should be treated as harassment.

But the point in which it becomes harassment is up to the person being harassed. There is nothing that says it's only harassment after 5 times, 10 times, whatever. If someone claims they are being harassed then there is no set number of times a person must have said the bad thing in order to be potentially fined in this regard. It's policing of language at that point, in which even a slip of the tongue can be costly. Ever have a slip of the tongue? I have. Happens all the time to people, in often times hilarious ways. Yet under this even a slip of the tongue could be one time too many and then you have a problem.

You, for whatever reason, seem to be having trouble treating trans people the same as any other group of human beings...

In what way have I done this? I don't insult and I don't belittle. I ask questions, or I question some philosophy, but I do that for all sorts of things and isn't limited to trans people. Nor have I ever suggested they aren't people.

What you are doing is projecting intent upon my comments in order to basically shut me up in that regard.

Yes, I read it. You can clearly see up there that a tribunal needs to conclude harassment and discrimination took place. And, a few sentences above: “The misuse of gender pronouns, without more, cannot rise to the level of a crime".

So the question becomes, if this is to even be considered, then what basis will this tribunal decided harassment occurred. Because if all it takes it someone feigning distress in the court room, then which way will they likely lean? Where is the rationality there?

Either case I think the subject has crossed over too many extremes.

Bottom line for me in regards to the threads original topic. It's great that the devs have included these options and I don't think it is a reasonable response from the community in question to still talk shit about a game that bought a license from an author who has an opinion they don't like. If you choose not to support it, than fine, but that doesn't automatically make the game and the devs behind the game evil or prejudice in anyway.

 

[Silvanus]

So the question becomes, if this is to even be considered, then what basis will this tribunal decided harassment occurred. Because if all it takes it someone feigning distress in the court room, then which way will they likely lean? Where is the rationality there?

Either case I think the subject has crossed over too many extremes.

OK, but then your concern applies equally to a huge number of crimes: assault, stalking, harassment, etc. It's a question for all of them "on what basis the tribunal/court decides". There's nothing unique about this Canadian legislation in that regard.

 

[CriticalGaming]

K, but then your concern applies equally to a huge number of crimes: assault, stalking,

Well not really. Because Assault, and stalking are actual objective things that can be clearly defined. Harassment is also pretty definitive when physical things are considered. But when you turn it over to a subjective things like feelings, and even made up feelings that an outsider can't possibly know. Then you have a problem, because you have to validate the complaint based off what actually happened versus how the "victim" feels what happened.

And feelings are subject to a totally wide swing of possibilities, and how can you make any sort of concrete ruling based on someone's feelings? That's why facts and evidence are so important in court of law. Because feelings can change, feelings can adapt, and also understand the situation. Which is why when our friends call us Assholes or Fuckers, we don't get upset about it because we know it's part of the social rules of the friend group. Yet obviously you get quite peeved when someone you don't know calls you a prick or something.

Even then there is some hope of understand of the situation or circumstance in which you've been "insulted". For example screaming at someone who cut you off. You know why people scream at each other in cars? Because subconsciously we all understand that we are riding around in death machines and that we have to trust thousands of strangers around us at all times to know what the fuck they are doing so that we can all get from point A to B without dying horribly. So when you see someone pull off a dumb fuck maneuver you flip out at them because of the risk to you and everyone around you due to the shithead in the other car.

But usually those insults don't mean anything and they fade away after a few minutes of going about your merry way.

And there are all sorts of situations that are unknowably tense which we encounter everyday that can cause a reaction like that.

Of course does that mean someone will just walk up to a stranger in line at a coffee shop and misgender them on purpose? No probably not. But sometimes a single misgendering can be exceptionally triggering on some people regardless of context and situation.

For example, the infamous Gamestop "IT'S MA'AM!" rager. Could that person then have gone and insisted that they were harassed and denied service in the store. According to C-16 they could have and there is a chance that something legal could have been done about it and that is what is so dangerous and worrying to me.

If if doesn't bother you because you feel like you are immune to every making a transgender transgression, than more power to you i guess.

 

[Kae]

It is an unfortunately consequence towards the "acceptance" that the trans community is striving for. Us "cis" (which I take as a slur personally but whatever) have to understand what is happening in order to gain the level of acceptance that I'm sure you would be looking out for.

Unlike with homosexuality which is a fairly straightforward concept, love who you who love regardless of equipment.

The trans concept is much deeper than that, and it goes beyond "be what you feel". It is a community that appears off the rails to most....ugh "cis"...because not only is it hard for us to consider genital surgery as any sort of rational thing, but there are some extreme sides of the issue too mainly being the encouragement to transistion children.

That means there are a lot bigger hurdles to trying to make the overall position seem reasonable which is something that gay/lesbian people have mostly overcome. You'll never win over 100% of people because religion is a thing, but luckily society has adapted more and more atheistic viewpoints and is slowly removing God form most policy making. So thing are slowly improving on those fronts I think.

I am sorry that you find this annoying, because I imagine you feel like you are having to explain yourself to people, and the answer i have to that is...don't. Just don't engage in the threads if you don't want to bother with it if it bothers you. I don't see a reason to upset yourself over forum posts on a small gaming website forum.

However so long as discussion is allowed and remains civil, there isn't anything you can really do to stop conversation, and demanding that it become a taboo topic doesn't really help sway viewpoints either. Maybe talk with @Nick Calandra and see if he feels it warrants maybe not allowing this to be a topic at all, or if he feels the thread is no longer relevant to the original topic and closes the thread, which....fair enough.

I have asked you personally before what word to use instead of cis and you never answered so you don't get to play the victim on that one, it's the word that as far as I'm aware best communicates what I'm trying to say without having to type the description of what I mean every single time, again if you have a better word, what is it?

In any case since you can't understand what I'm saying my issue is that you're clearly arguing in bad faith, I have already explained to you before how transitioning in minors involves only puberty blockers which are only provided if the child has been seeing doctors (Including therapists) for literal fucking years (In which case it's very likely that the parents agree with the procedure as they are the ones taking the damned kid to the doctor for that specific purpose), my point is that you're repeating the exact same fucking bullshit over and over again and you show no signs of understanding at all, the point is that you repeat this on every single fucking thread about trans people without exception.

I'm going to make it clear, it's fine to disagree and for us not to see eye to eye, for example @Specter Von Baren disagrees with me, he made it clear last time we spoke about this, he voiced his concerns and everything and by the end of the discussion I'm sure I didn't convince him to change his mind and he didn't convince me to change mine (Though he did convince me to look into some stuff I hadn't looked into before), but you know why he's cool and you're not?

Because he doesn't get into every single fucking thread about trans people to repeat the exact same things he had said before, like if he wants to discuss the issue in the future that's fine, because at least I'll know I won't be repeating myself ad-nauseam, at least he listens enough to not have the exact same shit said over and over again.

In any case it's appropriate you responded because you are by far just the absolute worst, I have literally told you stuff that I find traumatic just to try to get you empathise with my perspective and at the time you acted like you did and then when the next thread came along you acted as if this was something that had never been discussed before, @Dwarvenhobble is also annoying but arguing with him feels more like arguing with and extremely annoying bot programmed to turn every argument into a circular argument, but you seem to actually be a person and then just suddenly forget everything next time, what I'm saying is you suck.

 

[Silvanus]

Well not really. Because Assault, and stalking are actual objective things that can be clearly defined. Harassment is also pretty definitive when physical things are considered. But when you turn it over to a subjective things like feelings, and even made up feelings that an outsider can't possibly know. Then you have a problem, because you have to validate the complaint based off what actually happened versus how the "victim" feels what happened.

And feelings are subject to a totally wide swing of possibilities, and how can you make any sort of concrete ruling based on someone's feelings? That's why facts and evidence are so important in court of law. Because feelings can change, feelings can adapt, and also understand the situation. Which is why when our friends call us Assholes or Fuckers, we don't get upset about it because we know it's part of the social rules of the friend group. Yet obviously you get quite peeved when someone you don't know calls you a prick or something.

Each of those include subjective examples which can constitute an offending action, but do not automatically constitute the offence (at least in UK law). In each case a court will need to judge based on what evidence they can, even if solid or demonstrable evidence is lacking. That includes testimony ("feelings").

Harassment is not always physical. Legally, a court has to judge based on the testimony of the target, as well as evaluating the suspect's intent as best they can. This is already the case with existing laws, and is nothing new or unique.

Of course does that mean someone will just walk up to a stranger in line at a coffee shop and misgender them on purpose? No probably not. But sometimes a single misgendering can be exceptionally triggering on some people regardless of context and situation.

For example, the infamous Gamestop "IT'S MA'AM!" rager. Could that person then have gone and insisted that they were harassed and denied service in the store. According to C-16 they could have and there is a chance that something legal could have been done about it and that is what is so dangerous and worrying to me.

If if doesn't bother you because you feel like you are immune to every making a transgender transgression, than more power to you i guess.

It's already been explicitly outlined in the article you provided that misuse of pronouns alone doesn't reach the level of a crime.

I'm not immune to making a mistake. Everybody makes mistakes, and honest errors on pronouns tend to be quickly forgiven in my experience. It doesn't bother me because the notion that someone would be in legal jeopardy as a result of C-16 is pure misinterpretation.

 

[CriticalGaming]

SNIP what I'm saying is you suck.

Then avoid threads that have these topics then. I don't know what to tell you, because on the point of transistion kids I do not and will not ever agree that it is okay. (Specifically kids btw under 12 years old).

I have the compacity to understand a POV and have compassion for it while still not agreeing with it. I would advise you to avoid topics that have obvious indications of being traumatic for you as I would not wish you extra stress.

That being said, I don't think the same points keep getting made because positions on topic evolve, situations are different and change, and while view points might remain similar that doesn't mean that things aren't worth continued discussion.

Furthermore it is highly unlikely that these discussions ever lead to a drastic change of view, most of the time people's viewpoints change slowly overtime which alone merits repeat discussions imo. Again you are free to avoid those discussions if you don't want to deal with emotions that they bring up. Seems reasonabel to me.

 

[Kae]

Then avoid threads that have these topics then. I don't know what to tell you, because on the point of transistion kids I do not and will not ever agree that it is okay. (Specifically kids btw under 12 years old).

I have the compacity to understand a POV and have compassion for it while still not agreeing with it. I would advise you to avoid topics that have obvious indications of being traumatic for you as I would not wish you extra stress.

That being said, I don't think the same points keep getting made because positions on topic evolve, situations are different and change, and while view points might remain similar that doesn't mean that things aren't worth continued discussion.

Furthermore it is highly unlikely that these discussions ever lead to a drastic change of view, most of the time people's viewpoints change slowly overtime which alone merits repeat discussions imo. Again you are free to avoid those discussions if you don't want to deal with emotions that they bring up. Seems reasonabel to me.

But why do you specifically need to discuss it every week?

 

[CriticalGaming]

But why do you specifically need to discuss it every week?

Does it even crop up every week?

And are you trying to state that because you don't like what I have to say, I shouldn't be able to say it? Have i broken some rule?

There is literally an ignore button you can click to make me disappear from your browser. Click my name, click ignore, no problem.

 

[Kae]

Does it even crop up every week?

And are you trying to state that because you don't like what I have to say, I shouldn't be able to say it? Have i broken some rule?

There is literally an ignore button you can click to make me disappear from your browser. Click my name, click ignore, no problem.

It comes up like once or twice a month but the discussion is actually always going though I'm not always in it, but you are, and again me caring about this makes sense, it affects me and people like me, you caring so much that you have to repeat how much you oppose it very weird and obsessive and tiring of trying to correct all the bullshit and misinformation you spread is absolutely exhausting, seriously if you have nothing new to contribute just shut up, or at least answer as to why you are so obsessed with the topic, it's seriously fucking weird, because again it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

[CriticalGaming]

because again it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

When it effects the rates of healthcare, when it effects the laws of the world I live in, when it effects workplace policies, when it demands worldwide social change, the words I'm allowed to use, then it DOES affect me. It effects what my tax dollars go to, it effects health coverage costs, it effects legal ways in which healthcare can be provided to EVERYONE. Therefore it applies to me.

Again if it upsets you so much....don't read the topics. I'm allowed to disagree, and I'm allowed to debate, it is up to YOU to decide whether or not you engage me in those debates.

Remember this whole thing started with me going "awesome trans options in the game cool", but also pointing out that the LBGT community still didn't want to acknowledge this game's attempts to bridge the gap that Rowling created to her IP. And of course, as usual, shit snowballs from there, which admittedly does often roll in circles sometimes.

So again...you don't have to engage in these topics. It's not like transgender isn't in the title to warn you...oh wait.

IMO this thread should have been two posts long.

Post 1: Hey the Hogwarts game added trans options to character creation.

Post 2: Cool

/thread.

 

[Kae]

When it effects the rates of healthcare, when it effects the laws of the world I live in, when it effects workplace policies, when it demands worldwide social change, the words I'm allowed to use, then it DOES affect me. It effects what my tax dollars go to, it effects health coverage costs, it effects legal ways in which healthcare can be provided to EVERYONE. Therefore it applies to me.

Again if it upsets you so much....don't read the topics. I'm allowed to disagree, and I'm allowed to debate, it is up to YOU to decide whether or not you engage me in those debates.

Remember this whole thing started with me going "awesome trans options in the game cool", but also pointing out that the LBGT community still didn't want to acknowledge this game's attempts to bridge the gap that Rowling created to her IP. And of course, as usual, shit snowballs from there, which admittedly does often roll in circles sometimes.

So again...you don't have to engage in these topics. It's not like transgender isn't in the title to warn you...oh wait.

IMO this thread should have been two posts long.

Post 1: Hey the Hogwarts game added trans options to character creation.

Post 2: Cool

/thread.

Why don't you answer the question, why the fuck are you so obsessed with trans people that you basically need to be bitching about trans people all the time?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Why don't you answer the question, why the fuck are you so obsessed with trans people that you basically need to be bitching about trans people all the time?

Because i find the majority of the arguments fascinating and I enjoy the debate, also I'm against outrage culture which underlines a lot of the things that come along with these topics. I'm not obsessed, I don't even look at the other forums on this site for the most part. So it isn't even like I hunt down the threads all the time or specifically target trans people.

I also like Geology, and I would love to have earthquake discussions, but this aint the forum for that.

If my opinions bother you so much, why don't you hit the ignore button?

 

[Kae]

Because i find the majority of the arguments fascinating and I enjoy the debate, also I'm against outrage culture which underlines a lot of the things that come along with these topics. I'm not obsessed, I don't even look at the other forums on this site for the most part. So it isn't even like I hunt down the threads all the time or specifically target trans people.

I also like Geology, and I would love to have earthquake discussions, but this aint the forum for that.

If my opinions bother you so much, why don't you hit the ignore button?

I don't think you get it I don't care about your opinions in particular, I can have a debate every now and then, I find it annoying that you claim to like the debate even though you are somehow in every single thread about trans people, and always saying the exact same things, if you really found the discussion fascinating, why do you have absolutely nothing new to say?

If that mattered you'd have some new arguments, whether that's to oppose the arguments you have encountered in the past, re-evaluating what you think or simply found new information, so that's definitely not it.

So since I've had to justify my existence to you for the sake of "recreational debate" why the fuck do you care so much that you have to parrot the exact same arguments without any indication of self awareness on every single thread about the topic that comes up?

 

[BrawlMan]

Because i find the majority of the arguments fascinating and I enjoy the debate, also I'm against outrage culture which underlines a lot of the things that come along with these topics. I'm not obsessed, I don't even look at the other forums on this site for the most part. So it isn't even like I hunt down the threads all the time or specifically target trans people.

Not trying to butt in, but you seem to be obsessed based off all the responses I've seen you put into the thread. It ain't about Harry Potter anymore, I can tell you that. You definitely have an obsession with going against outrage culture. I'm not big on outrage culture either, doesn't matter if you're on the left or the right, but I'm not going to be obsessive of them every single day. I tune them out most of the time and go, yeah whatever or screw you. Having one trans or character of A different race of religion isn't enough. Why stop at just one to fill a bullcrap quota? There's challenging views and then there's acting oblivious. It's called live and let live dude.

 

[Kae]

BTW I'd just like to point out the absolute hypocrisy of this dude that claims he hates outrage culture even though all he does is being outraged over outrage culture.
Like seriously he has absolutely no self-awareness.

 

[Silvanus]

When it effects the rates of healthcare, when it effects the laws of the world I live in, when it effects workplace policies, when it demands worldwide social change, the words I'm allowed to use, then it DOES affect me. It effects what my tax dollars go to, it effects health coverage costs, it effects legal ways in which healthcare can be provided to EVERYONE. Therefore it applies to me.

The impact on your tax bill is so minuscule as to be not really worth bringing up. Same with health coverage costs. Each of those are affected by approximately 10 million larger factors than trans people. It's likely there isn't a single penny on your healthcare bill or your tax bill that's attributable to this.

There's not a single legally-sound reason to believe that workplace anti-discrimination policies or laws will adversely affect you, any more than anti-harassment rules already do. They all rely on some degree of judgement, as laws always have. And honest mistakes have not, and will not, be outlawed.

As for "worldwide social change": no. Almost all of the requested changes come under the heading of "be polite". It's not difficult to not make a big deal of it, and nobody is asking for a big deal to be made.

This is 100% making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Kwak]

Sure to an extend that's true. However rights for sexual minorities is one of those things that don't affect those that complain about it while those that are affected by it are only affected in a very positive way. Sexual minorities gaining rights means the world to them while not costing a thing to anyone else. The minorities win and no one loses so at that point there's no valid reason to so strongly oppose it. Those that oppose it don't lose out when sexual minorities gain rights and those minorities gain a lot.

It effects their traditional sense of normality. That is apparently worth fighting over.

 

[Nick Calandra]

Welp, this has gone so far off topic. I've been sick the past few days otherwise this would have been shut sooner.

Kae and CriticalGaming you can continue your argument in DMs over email or ignore one another.