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CriticalGaming

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There's an argument to be made that if you're using racist/homopobic slurs when you're drunk or really mad, you might well be a racist/homophobe who'se just really good at hiding it most of the time.

In Vino Veritas and all that.
I dont know. Because when you're mad you often say things you dont mean. But in that moment you say the most hurtful thing you can come up with because you are pissed off. Sometimes people make things up like when a girlfriend might say, "your brother has a bigger dick." In a fight simply because it pushes your buttons. She likely doesnt mean it but she is mad and knows what would upset you.

Being drunk is the same depending on how drunk. You can do and say things while drunk you have no control over and even wont remember once you sober up. So even if you call someone a tacomucher while drunk can you mean it if you cant remember even doing it?

I wont defend Eugene's behavior here. But he did apologize and realized the error of his actions. And Ellie would likely consider him a bigot forever judging from her reactions in that moment. The question is what is the message here?

Is it a progressive moment in which the bigot is an unforgivable bastard?

Is it meant to reflect Ellie's character in which she cannot forgive and forget? As foreshadowing for the rest of the game.

While it is likely the second thing, getting called a lezzy is fair less of a transgression that murdering your father figure right?

In the end it is just a symptom of the bad writing. But it does represent the things we see in the real world. Where one badly interpreted tweet can cause lots of issues and apologies never seem to make any difference.
 

Buyetyen

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I dont know. Because when you're mad you often say things you dont mean. But in that moment you say the most hurtful thing you can come up with because you are pissed off. Sometimes people make things up like when a girlfriend might say, "your brother has a bigger dick." In a fight simply because it pushes your buttons. She likely doesnt mean it but she is mad and knows what would upset you.

Being drunk is the same depending on how drunk. You can do and say things while drunk you have no control over and even wont remember once you sober up. So even if you call someone a tacomucher while drunk can you mean it if you cant remember even doing it?
I call bullshit. Alcohol does not give you bad ideas, it just makes your existing bad ideas sound better. And if you call someone a racial slur just because you want to hurt their feelings, then how not-racist can you really be?

I wont defend Eugene's behavior here. But he did apologize and realized the error of his actions. And Ellie would likely consider him a bigot forever judging from her reactions in that moment. The question is what is the message here?

Is it a progressive moment in which the bigot is an unforgivable bastard?

Is it meant to reflect Ellie's character in which she cannot forgive and forget? As foreshadowing for the rest of the game.

While it is likely the second thing, getting called a lezzy is fair less of a transgression that murdering your father figure right?

In the end it is just a symptom of the bad writing. But it does represent the things we see in the real world. Where one badly interpreted tweet can cause lots of issues and apologies never seem to make any difference.
Forgiveness is still the prerogative of the offended.
 

Hawki

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I fail to see how it's a bad thing that people don't voice certain opinions, like for example, racism and transphobia. You can think that shit all you want, but the instant you voice it or act on it, we have a problem. There's a lot of shit I don't say it public because it's inappropriate. If you consider that a bad thing, it's worth asking why. I'm gonna agree with GX that if someone has no filter, it's because they're an asshole.
That's a nice strawman, but no, I'm thinking of stuff like China.


I'm thinking of stuff like Israel-Palestine


I'm thinking of stuff like the gender gap


I'm talking about religion.


Of course everyone engages in some self-censorship in everyday conversation, but the university's meant to be a place where you hash out those conversations.

Also, saying you're afraid of stuff like "racism" and "transphobia" isn't a useful definition, because the lines of what counts as racist or transphobic are blurred a lot these days. That, and all other methods of "phobia" and "ism."

Or, TL, DR, I'd rather the culture of university speech and free inquiry be more like this:


And less like this:

 
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Buyetyen

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Also, saying you're afraid of stuff like "racism" and "transphobia" isn't a useful definition, because the lines of what counts as racist or transphobic are blurred a lot these days. That, and all other methods of "phobia" and "ism."
This begs the question of who gets to arbitrate?
 
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Hawki

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This begs the question of who gets to arbitrate?
Society as a whole?

All that stuff I mentioned above, it's fair to say that we've got consensus on a no. of things, and a lack of consensus on others. Like, I dunno, take sexism. I don't think anyone here would claim that people should be discriminated against in applying for jobs based on gender (bar exceptional circumstances). That's pretty much a consensus in most countries in the world. On the other hand, a hotbud issue is the question of women in STEM, which raises questions such as:

a) Is the lack of women in STEM due to discrimination, or do men and women tend to gravitate towards different careers?

b) Should every role in every society be 50/50, or do only some fields need to be 50/50?

I could go on and on with these questions. Anyone could. Assuming that the answers exist, I don't believe they'd be found by refusing to ask the questions.
 

Silvanus

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Except that's not what I said. I said her response to the claims would be considered that.
That article has her public response to the claims as such.
She was asked for a response.
She gave a response.
The response she gave was to call people she was working with and their response to her wanting to burn books "Uninformed". As though they didn't know why they were against book burning.......

That is creating a hostile work environment by showing a highly dismissive lack of respect toward others you're meant to work with.
That constitutes a hostile working environment to you? Calling someone "uninformed"? Ooooook.


Yet the level of general understanding must be the words present generally accepted definition. Otherwise it can and will allow people to Weasel their way out of stuff. E.G. if I were to call you a certain F word I won't write here and we worked on the "Oh I was using a different definition" it easily allows me to pretend I was calling you a bundle of sticks or a pork sage and onion ball of meat.

Words have meanings and if you're not using the most common meaning or the meaning isn't always clear you should clarify.
Uhrm, except that word is universally recognised as a homophobic slur. "Alt-right" is not a slur, and has none of the same history or baggage as that term.


Which is why quite often people get challenged on those terms and like I did earlier in this very thread they give definitions.
Oh, those definitions you gave, which were just a list of things you don't like ascribed to the word "woke".


Actually in the UK it does.
The incident before where I mentioned the false claim of a member of the lord being a pedophile spreading on social media did hit both UK celebs and no name UK users. The celebs had to pay some fairly hefty chunks of change and I think put out a correction or apology. The no named ones had the court mandate them donate I think it was £2 each to a charity organisation.

The UK harm dismissal requires you to prove there was no harm done to the person.
That is different to the USA where you have to prove the harm was done by said action.

As I already pointed out in the USA this can be exploited as you need a direct comment saying the reason action was taken was due to said comments etc and many employers won't do that because it opens them up to unlawful dismissal suits.

In the UK you'd have to prove the employers didn't fire a person due to your actions.
You evidently don't have the faintest idea how defamation laws work in the UK. Firstly, "paedophile" is a specific factual claim, which is completely distinct from subjective political descriptors like "traditionalist" or "alt-right".

And no, UK law does not require people to prove a negative, because that's patently ridiculous. Take a look at the Defamation Act 2013. You can see that serious harm is a requirement for a statement to be considered defamatory, and there is no shift of the burden of proof. Serious harm has to be legally proven.

You can also see that if the statement is an expression of honest opinion, defamation law explicitly does not apply (section 3).

I'd rather stop seeing highly weighted damaging terms used as pejoratives by people as a means to attack and harm others then trying to weasel word out of calling some-one a racist because under one specific ideological definition of being a racist it means they once at a curry cooked by a white chef in a restaurant without having consent from an Indian person to partake is a cultural dish. Or they once worse a Yukata or Kimono they bought without express permission from a Japanese person.
Yes, I know that you'd rather just leverage the law against woke lefties you don't like. But you have to think about the precedent you're setting. You're arguing for defamation laws to prevent members of the public using subjective descriptors. That would unavoidably mean that we couldn't criticise the ruling party, for instance, unless we proved a factual error. And even then we couldn't comment on it.

Defamation law simply does not work like this, and it would be a dystopian hellhole if it did.
 

Baffle

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I call bullshit. Alcohol does not give you bad ideas, it just makes your existing bad ideas sound better. And if you call someone a racial slur just because you want to hurt their feelings, then how not-racist can you really be?
Pretty much. By using an insult related to someone's colour, sexuality, disability, etc. you're immediately saying that the characteristic makes that person lesser in your eyes (otherwise it wouldn't be a [deliberate] insult). To double down by not only highlighting that that's how you feel about that person but to also use a slur when doing so just makes you even more of a dick.
 

Buyetyen

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Society as a whole?
Should bigots be allowed to decide what is and is not bigoted toward other people? Because as of right now, they certainly seem to think they are.

Like, I dunno, take sexism. I don't think anyone here would claim that people should be discriminated against in applying for jobs based on gender (bar exceptional circumstances). That's pretty much a consensus in most countries in the world.
Might want to do your homework again, because sexism is far more prevalent than your personal lived experience would indicate.

On the other hand, a hotbud issue is the question of women in STEM, which raises questions such as:

a) Is the lack of women in STEM due to discrimination, or do men and women tend to gravitate towards different careers?

b) Should every role in every society be 50/50, or do only some fields need to be 50/50?

I could go on and on with these questions. Anyone could. Assuming that the answers exist, I don't believe they'd be found by refusing to ask the questions.
JAQing off by any other name. It shouldn't be whether you ask questions, it should be whether the questions are smart and whether or not you're willing to act on the answers.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Just gonna leave an unrelated thing open on an unrelated thing

Links within: https://prospect.org/justice/care-faux-free-speech-warriors-koch-brothers-paying-bills./

There is a war on free speech, and the front lines are YouTube ads.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that, following the outcry of politicians and commentators over YouTube’s temporary decision to demonetize the videos of conservative pundit Steven Crowder, who makes money from the ads provided by YouTube’s platform. Crowder had been called out by Vox journalist Carlos Maza for a long history of homophobic abuse, including calling Maza “a lispy queer” and selling T-shirts that say “Socialism Is for Fags.”

The incident set a certain set of free-speech warriors ablaze. Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, and other pundits who have made their name online for defending free speech—particularly those organized under the umbrella of the so-called “Intellectual Dark Web,” or IDW—have made Crowder a martyr of a pernicious war on civil discourse.

You've probably heard their arguments before: They claim to be opposed to censorship, “no-platforming” (when people are excluded from online or offline forums because of the views they express), and any attempts to discourage the open expression of ideas. These figures—who self-identify as classical liberals, conservatives, and libertarians—say that their project is completely non-ideological: It's just about giving everyone a fair hearing.

But these same free-speech warriors went mum earlier this month when one of their own, Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson, met with Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban, who has bragged about making Hungary “an illiberal state, a non-liberal state,” and has provoked mass protests for cracking down on academic freedom. Crowder’s defenders have also neglected to mention that he once went with a camera crew to the workplace of a commenter he disagreed with, harassing them and trying to get them fired. Indeed, IDW members and their acolytes have repeatedly fought against allowing those they disagree with a platform to speak.

It's easy to dismiss the outrage and inconsistency of online free-speech warriors who profit off of controversy. But there's a more serious and troubling dynamic at play: The “free speech movement,” including not only online pundits but also think tanks, academics, activist groups, and their mainstream popularizers, has always been about free speech for the right—and suppressing the speech of everyone else. It is by and large funded by right-wing billionaires like the Koch brothers, who whip up anger about the “intolerant left” in order to stymie opposition to their social, economic, and political agenda.

At a time when the far right has declared war on dissent, protest, and the press in much of the world—from Orban's Hungary to Benjamin Netanyahu's Israel to Jair Bolsonaro's Brazil to Donald Trump's United States—the cover that the false prophets of free speech give to demagogues could not be more dangerous.

TO UNDERSTAND THE origins of the free-speech movement, its priorities, and its funding, you have to start not at today’s social media battlefields, but at college campuses. The narrative that has emerged in recent years is familiar: College campuses have become ground zero for a new generation of intolerant leftists.

Today's lefty college students, goes the narrative popularized in a 2015 Atlantic article, “The Coddling of the American Mind,” are insulating themselves from opinions they don’t like. With their safe spaces and trigger warnings, they stifle intellectual debate, protesting even the appearance of anyone whom they happen to disagree with. And if we don’t fight these snowflake kids and the entitled professors who support them, if we don’t insist that the views they are suppressing get heard, then we are ringing the death knell of civil society. The American college campus, this narrative goes, may be the precursor to the Stalinist gulag.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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(continued, apologies, so many removed sourced links, this site's obscure limits being weird again)
This angle is how New York Times opinion writer and campus speech chronicler Bari Weiss cut her teeth, leading an organization of pro-Israel Columbia University students who accused professors of intimidating them for their beliefs. Same for Peterson, who first achieved notoriety for insisting he would not use the preferred gender pronouns of students and faculty. Bret Weinstein, a biology professor at Evergreen State College, became an online sensation for his highly publicized opposition to an initiative asking white students and faculty to stay home for a symbolic protest against white supremacy. After facing criticism from students, Weinstein resigned his position, sued the school, collected a healthy settlement, and went on to become a key part of the IDW, along with Shapiro, Rogan, talk show host David Rubin, and academic Jonathan Haidt, who co-wrote “The Coddling of the American Mind.” Weiss wrote the splashy New York Times profile that first publicized the group.

But despite its wide currency in online and media discourse, the thesis of “The Coddling of the American Mind” doesn't hold up. Political scientist Jeffrey Sachs has found that young people are actually more tolerant of potentially offensive speech than older Americans, and that four years of college actually make students less supportive of banning such speech. And for all the hoopla over no-platforming, campus free-speech watchdog Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) found that last year there were a whopping total of 18 “disinvitation attempts” across all American colleges and universities. The number of those that succeeded is even lower.

So if they're not actually destroying free speech, what is the issue the IDW and its ilk have with college students? Simple: They're not conservative enough.

By every possible measure, Generation Z—the cohort currently in college—is the leftmost in the country. According to a Pew Research Center survey, 70 percent of Gen Z say government should do more to solve problems and 62 percent say racial/ethnic diversity is good for society, compared to 49 percent and 48 percent of baby boomers, respectively. Given that this generation was born long after the Cold War but came of age in the aftermath of the Great Recession and Trump’s election, it’s no surprise that Gen Z prefers socialism to capitalism.

This is the real campus crisis the IDW world fears: That the classical liberal intellectual tradition of white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism is under threat by the most diverse generation in American history, and the most radical in at least a century. It is not marginal speech that these “free-speech warriors” are protecting, but that of the entrenched, powerful interests of our country’s elite. Indeed, just looking at the college activism of some of these figures—from Weiss’s campaign against Muslim and Arab scholars at Columbia to Peterson’s call for instructors at a left-wing teacher’s college to be “put on trial for treason”—a clear pattern of anti-left censorship emerges.

These actions go far beyond mere personal animus. In peeling back the curtain on the funding networks that have popularized the IDW's cause, an even more nefarious picture emerges: a coordinated, strategic effort by right-wing billionaires like the Koch brothers to extinguish any opposition to their political, economic, and social agenda.

Don't take my word for it—Richard Fink, president of the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, has openly bragged about it. According to his “Structure of Social Change” philosophy, the goal of the Koch Foundation’s philanthropy is to make grants in a strategic way so as to best affect public policy and influence broader social change. And what does Fink insist is a key part of this strategy? You guessed it—college campuses. Koch money is all over organizations that advocate for campus free speech, like the infamous astroturf group Speech First.

But it goes much deeper than the obvious, ideological nonprofits—many members of the IDW are directly involved with Koch cash.

Dave Rubin's influential podcast, The Rubin Report, for example, has a financial partnership with Learn Liberty, a think tank started by the Koch-funded Institute for Humane Studies (IHS), where Charles G. Koch himself sits on the board. When the Canadian government denied Jordan Peterson funding for his work, Rebel Media—a group funded with Koch money and headed by Ezra Levant, a far-right Islamophobe with ties to the Koch networkraised cash for him (Peterson has since returned the favor, fundraising for the IHS). Ben Shapiro has collected speaker fees from the Koch-funded Young America's Foundation and Turning Point USA. And Bret Weinstein was hosted by the University of Wisconsin-Stout’s Free Speech Week, a project of their Center for the Study of Institutions and Innovation—funded by, you guessed it, the Charles G. Koch Foundation.

It's not just the IDW itself: Some of its key popularizers also get Koch funding. Bari Weiss and The Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf—who has been one of the most visible defenders of Peterson in the mainstream media—have both received cash prizes from the Koch-funded Reason Foundation, where David Koch himself sits on the board of trustees. And remember “The Coddling of the American Mind”? Well, one of its co-authors, Greg Lukianoff, is the head of that campus free-speech watchdog, FIRE. That organization is funded, of course, by the Koch brothers (for good measure, the Charles Koch Institute also did a laudatory write-up of the piece).

The Atlantic is perhaps the worst offender. Last year it launched “The Speech Wars,” a reporting project that seeks “to understand where free speech is in danger and where it has been abused.” Even though the magazine had just been bought by billionaire Laurene Powell Jobs and was seeing all-time high circulation and web traffic, The Atlantic solicited funding for the project from none other than the Charles Koch Foundation (the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press and the Fetzer Institute are also underwriters).

When I asked The Atlantic for comment, a spokesperson replied that “editorial control for this series—as with every piece of journalism we create—rests solely with The Atlantic.” But the magazine refused to deny that reporters and editors with “The Speech Wars” are ever in contact with the Koch Foundation. Editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg did not respond to my request for comment, and The Atlantic has not disclosed how much money it has received from the Koch Foundation.

The mission of the free-speech movement, from its IDW evangelists to its Koch funders, is to advance right-wing ideas, to marginalize those on the left who challenge them, and to mobilize useful idiots of the center as political cover. It’s tempting to dismiss this as conspiracy, but the Kochs have left a paper trail of their designs on suppressing the speech of any who disagree with them. Documents released last year by George Mason University—a hotbed of libertarian scholarship—show that in exchange for giving millions of dollars to the university, Koch-controlled entities were given influence over academic affairs, including faculty appointments and hires, and even student admissions. A similar controversy had emerged years earlier over a Koch Foundation gift to Florida State University. With the Koch brothers estimated to have spent over $250 million on more than 500 colleges and universities, it doesn’t take a stretch of the imagination to see the impact that could have on suppressing left-wing speech.

It's not just the Kochs. FIRE, for example, has also received funding from the right-wing billionaire Olin and Scaife families. Through the right-wing media sites The Daily Wire and PragerU, the billionaire Wilks brothers have helped bankroll the rise of IDW stars Ben Shapiro and Joe Rogan. In the U.K., William Davies has written about how the right wing promotes its agenda under the guise of “free speech” in the exact same way. And as investigative reporters like The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer have shown, this isn’t just about a couple of billionaires throwing some money around: It’s an organized project by an elite class to preserve its power in the face of an existential threat from the left.

In Trump's America, we have seen the disturbing rise of two contradictory trends: increasing attacks—both rhetorical and physical—on socialists, immigrants, LGBT people, women, people of color, and other marginalized communities; and a rising sentiment of “false victimhood” among many white men who feel that everything from Marxism to women’s studies courses to babies on the border are to blame for a perceived loss of status. This tension is creating a vicious cycle that threatens to erode our democracy, entrench the power of large capital interests, and terrorize all who pose even the slightest challenge to this order. And of course, from Latin America to Eastern Europe to South Asia, this trend is a global one.

What makes the free-speech movement most nefarious is it takes those of us best equipped to stop this trend—the left and marginalized communities—and claims that we, who have for so long been silenced by those in power, are the real threat to free speech. That's an issue far greater than Steven Crowder and YouTube ads, and one that we must all work to fight. Our very freedom—to speak, to protest, to challenge power and live dignified, fulfilled lives—is at risk.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Apparently, the dev who got "Cancel Cultured" was planning on retiring back in August for family reasons but was convinced to stick around after a break for a bit by the company. Unfortunately, the family situation continued to deteriorate and that's why he had his planned retirement happen in March.

Of course, we can't trust that or his continued insistence that WB didn't put pressure on him to retire for culture war reasons, so this information is useless.
 

Avnger

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Apparently, the dev who got "Cancel Cultured" was planning on retiring back in August for family reasons but was convinced to stick around after a break for a bit by the company. Unfortunately, the family situation continued to deteriorate and that's why he had his planned retirement happen in March.

Of course, we can't trust that or his continued insistence that WB didn't put pressure on him to retire for culture war reasons, so this information is useless.
It was just SJWs playing the long con. They infiltrated his family years ago through baby-swapping.

Edit:

As the famous chant goes:

"SJW. That's the only name you'll hear. SJW. It means the end and the death. SJW. I am an SJW. SJWs are all around you. SJWs are the man beside you. SJWs will gnaw on your bones. Look out! SJWs are here."
 
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Dalisclock

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It was just SJWs playing the long con. They infiltrated his family years ago through baby-swapping.
Wait, we're up to baby swapping? I thought we were still sapping and impurifying his precious bodily fluids?

I'm like 3 pages behind on the master plan. Someone needs to send me the fucking memos!
 
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Hawki

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Should bigots be allowed to decide what is and is not bigoted toward other people? Because as of right now, they certainly seem to think they are.
Again, nice strawman.

People can take offence at what they want, that's their right. It doesn't mean that the world is obliged to agree with them.

In case you're wondering, no, I don't agree with standpoint theory.

Might want to do your homework again, because sexism is far more prevalent than your personal lived experience would indicate.
The limited applications of "lived experience" aside, where did I bring "lived experience" into the quoted post outside these forums?

JAQing off by any other name.
Says the person who does their own JAQ at the very start of their post.

It shouldn't be whether you ask questions, it should be whether the questions are smart and whether or not you're willing to act on the answers.
Well, I consider them reasonable questions to ask. So far, in "lived experience," the answer to a is hotly contested. The answer to b is almost never given.
 
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Hawki

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On the gender equality paradox:


Speaking personally, for "lived experience," I don't particuarly care what the ratio in STEM is. If the reason for women being under-represented is discrimination, then yes, that's an issue, because even being someone who has no interest in STEM, I can object on a moral level. If the reason however is people choosing different career paths, then I'm left to wonder why the effort is needed. I mean, I get why governments are interested in STEM (economic dividends) as opposed to other fields, but on the field of principle, if you believe that society should be 50/50 in every area...well, then there's a hell of a lot of fields who are way more out of balance than that.

And again, back to "lived experience," the second job I ever held was a car wash job - run by men, most workers were men. Current field I work in is libraries - run by women, most workers are women. I'm going to go on a limb and assume that the people who want equality in STEM aren't the people who want a 50/50 split in car washing (have fun, because it's a shitty job), or a 50/50 split in libraries.
 

Buyetyen

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Again, nice strawman.

People can take offence at what they want, that's their right. It doesn't mean that the world is obliged to agree with them.

In case you're wondering, no, I don't agree with standpoint theory.
Cool.

The limited applications of "lived experience" aside, where did I bring "lived experience" into the quoted post outside these forums?
Everyone speaks from their own lived experience. No exceptions. It's not a dig at you.

Says the person who does their own JAQ at the very start of their post.
I'm just trying to figure out your point. You're making it clearer now, so thank you.

Well, I consider them reasonable questions to ask. So far, in "lived experience," the answer to a is hotly contested. The answer to b is almost never given.
Because question A is usually an argument between biological determinists and everybody else. I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the disparity is because of biology instead of culture, that it's endemic rather than learned behavior. And I confess, I got a bit testy because this is one of those hot-button issues for me. Sorry about that.

I'm going to go on a limb and assume that the people who want equality in STEM aren't the people who want a 50/50 split in car washing (have fun, because it's a shitty job), or a 50/50 split in libraries.
Again, this a cultural pressure based on learned behavior. To give an example of what I mean, there was a time when being a secretary was considered a man's job. Until the bosses figured out they could get the same results from women for a fraction of the salary. Along the way, the perception morphed to make secretary a stereotypically feminine job even though one's masculinity or femininity have no bearing on the ability to do the work. In the case of STEM, there's still a lot of cultural inertia towards a male-dominated scene. Consider also that until about a century ago, higher education was heavily sectionalized based on sex. Women were expected to go to college to become nurses or teachers or similarly "feminine" jobs. It was only in the 20th century that things started opening up more.

To put it simply, the reason we see this disparity is because of cultural gender roles. Obviously, this doesn't prevent all women from going into STEM fields or all men from becoming librarians, but there is a cultural pressure for the genders to conform to certain careers. And that kind of inertia is hard to break. Especially when the culture is self-reinforcing. I recall when I was a busker seeing more than once other male performers engaging in what is euphemistically described as "locker room talk" even when women were present. There were a couple of young ladies who wanted to take up magic, but were creeped out of the scene by magicians. This is a pattern I've witnessed in multiple fields among a variety of individuals.

To sum up, sorry for making assumptions about you, and I believe the disparity we see is learned instead of naturalistic.
 

CriticalGaming

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To put it simply, the reason we see this disparity is because of cultural gender roles.
And you think it has nothing to do with biological factors? People's choices can only ever be due to the influence around them?

Why do women buy the majority of romance novels? Is it because society says that they should read them and for no other reason? "Welp here I am at a book store and this Jurassic Park novel looks really interested but, oh well, I have a vagina and there I must by something from the romance section *sigh*."

To suggest that there isn't some biological factors than play into our decision making is severely understating the influence of natural instinct and biology of life itself.

Men and women do not think the same way, it's been studied and shown by a fairly large amount of research. Which explains a lot of the natural job veering that we see. But there are other factors as well, choosing to have kids is something that impacts women much more than it does men (considering the whole 9 months of having a parasite inside of you, then another 12 months of taking care of something that will die if it sneezes too hard), which also in turn can cause women to make career choices that they can leave freely should motherhood be their next life step.

We've made a lot of progress in making things easier on women to do both. To have families and have careers as well, yet a large portion of the female population doesn't do that. Those women often set their mindset to one thing or the either and rarely both.

And to imply that those choices are made strictly from societal influence seems stupid. Unless you wanna say that all men went, "Yeah I think the ladies should have the kids, considering they've got all the wombs." Us guys don't really have a choice in that regard either do we?

I know a lot of ladies who took up Magic....the gathering....err different thing nevermind.
 

Avnger

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Wait, we're up to baby swapping? I thought we were still sapping and impurifying his precious bodily fluids?

I'm like 3 pages behind on the master plan. Someone needs to send me the fucking memos!
We started the baby swapping back in the 90s in preparation for the coming war. You should see the replicants R&D has been working on as a replacement. You know how the robots in I, Robot get that red light when they turn evil? Ours instead change their hair color to purple!
 

Hawki

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Everyone speaks from their own lived experience. No exceptions.
I agree that's true technically, but if people are after the truth, "lived experience" is of limited value by itself, when compared to statistics.

Here's an example - is violence against women an issue?

My "lived experience" would tell me no - my issued genitals aside, I don't know any woman personally (as in, as a friend) who's suffered domestic violence, I've never had any friends/family/co-workers talk about domestic violence, and over the course of my life, I've encountered two women (and one man) who's suffered domestic violence, all of whom in the last four or so years. So, in the scope of "lived experience," I'd say no.

In the realm of reality, I'd say it is an issue, because the statistics are clear that it is - something like one woman dies per week in Oz due to domestic violence, and that's still a lot lower than many other countries in the world. My "lived experience" doesn't count for much.

That still goes the other way. For instance, if a kid is being bullied at school, then that's evidence of bullying in of itself, it's not evidence that the school has an epidemic of bullying. You'd need far more data than that. Again, in "lived experience," I can certainly attest to personal bullying in secondary school, but I can't condemn the school I went to as being a cesspool of it because I'd be just one guy out of hundreds.

Because question A is usually an argument between biological determinists and everybody else. I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the disparity is because of biology instead of culture, that it's endemic rather than learned behavior. And I confess, I got a bit testy because this is one of those hot-button issues for me. Sorry about that.

Again, this a cultural pressure based on learned behavior. To give an example of what I mean, there was a time when being a secretary was considered a man's job. Until the bosses figured out they could get the same results from women for a fraction of the salary. Along the way, the perception morphed to make secretary a stereotypically feminine job even though one's masculinity or femininity have no bearing on the ability to do the work. In the case of STEM, there's still a lot of cultural inertia towards a male-dominated scene. Consider also that until about a century ago, higher education was heavily sectionalized based on sex. Women were expected to go to college to become nurses or teachers or similarly "feminine" jobs. It was only in the 20th century that things started opening up more.

To put it simply, the reason we see this disparity is because of cultural gender roles. Obviously, this doesn't prevent all women from going into STEM fields or all men from becoming librarians, but there is a cultural pressure for the genders to conform to certain careers. And that kind of inertia is hard to break. Especially when the culture is self-reinforcing. I recall when I was a busker seeing more than once other male performers engaging in what is euphemistically described as "locker room talk" even when women were present. There were a couple of young ladies who wanted to take up magic, but were creeped out of the scene by magicians. This is a pattern I've witnessed in multiple fields among a variety of individuals.

To sum up, sorry for making assumptions about you, and I believe the disparity we see is learned instead of naturalistic.
So, I definitely agree that jobs have some cultural expectations to them. You're right about secrataries. Nurses are another field that were dominated by men before they became seen as being dominated by women. Question is, how much inertia is there? A century ago, higher education was a man's world, now, more women go to higher education than men. So if it's solely down to inertia, then what explains the flip in some areas and not others?

Basically, I don't think biological factors can be ruled out. I know there's a lot of debate about that, but for instance, it's generally observed that men generally approach tasks specifically, while women approach tasks holistically. Or in maths, if you look at the intelligence spectrum, there's far more male mathematic geniuses, but far more dunces as well, while women tend to cluster around the middle (so, less female geniuses, but less female dumbasses). Even if less women go into maths then men, then surely the distribution would remain the same, even if there's less entries on the spectrum, so to speak?


In other words, is it nature, nurture, or a combination?
 

Hawki

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Why do women buy the majority of romance novels? Is it because society says that they should read them and for no other reason?

It's an interesting breakdown of genre fiction by the gender of the author writing it. I'd say it's fairly indicative of the nature vs. nurture question.

Take romance - in the 1950s, it was male-dominated, whereas from the 1960s onwards, it's stayed female dominated (around 85% as of the 1980s, and it's stayed there ever since). Whereas spy/politics had 24% female writers in the 1950s, but by the 2010s, that had plummeted to 3%. Literary, being the golden goose, is close to 50/50 (54% men, 46% women in the 2010s).

It's hardly definitive, but it's interesting how over the 20th century, some genres became more equal over time, while others shot off to favour one gender or another, and some have remained the same.
 
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