Game mechanics that need to die

SilentPony

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Also, the "disabled and don't want a challenge" has always been a false comparison. If the player is either unable or unwilling to get through the same challenges that everybody else has to, they should drop that game and play something else more suited to them instead of demanding a "Difficulty Mode" when the fact is they're just trying to cheapen the accomplishments of anyone who can beat a game as is for their own selfish satisfaction.
That's kinda a heartless, and frankly assumed superiority, way of looking at it. Someone doing something in a lighter difficulty doesn't negate the accomplishments of others. We have little league teams, and professional sports teams, both playing the same game, but the kids play on half the field size. No one thinks that diminishes the professional sports teams.
They're not cheapening the accomplishments of others, they're trying to experience a game in a way that they can. We don't take a game made in Japan and say an English translation cheapens the Japanese experience and negates all the accomplishments of Japanese gamers because English speakers can now play it. I mean really by your logic shouldn't English players play a game more suited to them, instead of getting a game translated? And before you say it doesn't change the overall experience, it most certainly does.
Different lines, different voice actors, different sentence construction and translations. Check out the Lost in Translation lore of From Software games. Translations certainly do change the experience.
The exact same can be said of a difficulty slide and players who don't want to go through the same difficulty experience others do.
 

Dalisclock

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I almost never use consumable items in games, unless they are easily obtainable like potions that you can get at any shop for next to nothing. But like I never use combat items like Grenades or special status effect items. I don't know why, but I never think to look in my inventory during a fight just to find some item that might do a little bit of wind damage or some shit to the enemies.
Grenades pretty much never scale, so they're only remotely useful at the beginning of the game when your MP/Mana is super limited and grenades can make up the difference. Special status items are often of such limited ulitity as to be entirely situational.

Not even getting into most bosses are immune to status effects, where such items/spells would actually fucking matter.
 

Dalisclock

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I'm definitely in the minority, I loved BotW's weapon degradation. It made you change tactics and adapt on the fly, and really consider what you're doing and the best way to approach any given encounter. The apps provided a good baseline to get through almost any encounter as-is with some ingenuity, and most weapons were bonuses.

But I'm also the kind of crazy bastard to look at a Lynel and think to myself, "well I have a stack of octo balloons and a korok leaf, let's see if I can make this work".

...it didn't, by the way.
I'd argue the best way to make players shift tactics and adapt is to make the enemy AI and armor/defense actually force a change in tactics, not gimp the weapons.

We're not talking limiting the Infinity + sword to a couple uses or a long recharge to keep you from spamming it to victory(unless you get it at the end of the game where that's the point), we're talking about "My IRON SWORD somehow broke from hitting a squishy mook too many times" because that's how iron works now. :rolleyes:
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Souls-like. I'm so fucking sick of these games where the central gimmick is that it's hard, and enemies respawn. Is it fun? Its hard. Is there a good story? Its hard.

And Devs who just think a hard game is an fully realized concept can fuck off. Its the AAA equivalent of Indie Devs just making zombie games because its a lot easier to not program an AI that uses weapons or tactics but just charge with fists and smear red paint on them.
Funny thing is Dark Souls enemies are braindead too.

But on a more fundamental sense, Jrpgs do storytelling through combat and the way chars fight acts as characterization so they give you tons of playable chars to characterize them and let you enjoy using them and not just seeing em in cutscenes, in some Jrpgs this is more emphasized with things like party-specific win quotes that differ and have dozens of permutations and things like that. Also, most Jrpgs do usually have some sort of explanation for where the rest of the party is in the lore. Like in trails of cold steel 4 for example (the game has almost 40 party members by the end of it) you are split in mission groups with various sub-parties that you jump to and fro during multi-pronged offensives or chars are dispatched to do things off-screen while you have a smaller group to work with and the group circulates to give everyone some screen time and char development.
Or here's a wild idea, you can make a JRPG without combat and play as characters that don't fight (which are like 99.9% of humans vs only playing as the 0.1% that do fight). RPGs don't need combat to be RPGs.

Didn't we have a thread like this months ago? Or is that yet another pandemic induced fever dream.

Anyway, optional stealth. Just either be stealth, or not. I think Uncharted 4 was when I began to fall out of favor with this mechanic (I was fine with it in Far Cry). Your first instinct of course was to stay in stealth, and as a person who enjoys stealth games, it always felt more like you fucked up rather than "Yay, time for shooting" when you were discovered. And frankly, the shootouts were far more enjoyable than the basic stealth mechanics they gave you. So doing things by stealth, giving you less enemies to fight in the long run, actually makes the game less fun, which is bizarre to me from a design standpoint.
We totally had this thread. I was confused at how many posts people added on today, then realized it was a new thread. Not that it's the TC's fault for not knowing that or anything.

Uncharted 4 felt so much like a poor-man's Metal Gear. The game was hurt because the combat scenarios were designed for stealth in mind, which meant the game was lacking most of the linearly designed combat encounters and set-pieces the series was known for. Lost Legacy was so much better.
 
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Bob_McMillan

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Uncharted 4 felt so much like a poor-man's Metal Gear. The game was hurt because the combat scenarios were designed for stealth in mind, which meant the game was lacking most of the linearly designed combat encounters and set-pieces the series was known for. Lost Legacy was so much better.
I have been meaning to get around to Lost Legacy. I am a little worried there will be too much jeep driving and puzzles again though.
 

Casual Shinji

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Anyway, optional stealth. Just either be stealth, or not. I think Uncharted 4 was when I began to fall out of favor with this mechanic (I was fine with it in Far Cry). Your first instinct of course was to stay in stealth, and as a person who enjoys stealth games, it always felt more like you fucked up rather than "Yay, time for shooting" when you were discovered. And frankly, the shootouts were far more enjoyable than the basic stealth mechanics they gave you. So doing things by stealth, giving you less enemies to fight in the long run, actually makes the game less fun, which is bizarre to me from a design standpoint.

Most recently for me in Spider-man PS4, there was literally no reason to stealth it up other than to fulfill optional mission objectives. And to add insult to injury, even if you do manage to take out everyone stealthily, they just force you into combat anyway. At this point, stealth really is starting to feel like an industry-mandated mechanic ala loot drops and crafting, something you throw in just because everyone else is doing it.
So you mean go back to a time when breaking out of stealth meant 'fuck you and die'? No thanks. Stealth in games was never fun until they didn't make you feel like a newborn baby chick when you got discovered by the enemy. When stealth became a mechanic you could play with rather than something you needed to adhire to under pain of game over. It made even less sense since most of these games had you play as a super soldier, who then apparently turns into a frightened child desperately hiding in a corner or in a vent waiting for an awareness timer to run out. And yes, I'm mostly refering to Metal Gear Solid since that is THE classic stealth game, but I assure you nobody DIDN'T play that series in the way I just described. And I find it hard to believe anyone found hiding away waiting for the game to be playable again to be that fun. It wasn't until MGS5 that you felt like you could adequately defend yourself and fight back after you got discovered and that actually playing MGS got fun.
 
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Dreiko

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Or here's a wild idea, you can make a JRPG without combat and play as characters that don't fight (which are like 99.9% of humans vs only playing as the 0.1% that do fight). RPGs don't need combat to be RPGs.
That's called a visual novel, there's plenty of those being made too.
 

Thaluikhain

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Personally, I don't mind consumables, as long as I can turn them into GP at the nearest town, they just become characterful (and usually not heavy) forms of loot.

Or if I can make them myself, the crafting, rather than the result, being the point. Sometimes I might even use them, but not often.
 

Dreiko

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On the matter of consumables and attack items and stuff, this is where the Atelier games stand out, since in those the attack items are basically like spells and it makes sense since you're an alchemist so your power is legit to make items, some of which are useful in fights. It's worth trying the games just to have consumable items actually be worth using for once.

Here's my fav entry in the atelier series, it's got tons of cool attack items. They're basically the protag's special abilities.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I almost never use consumable items in games, unless they are easily obtainable like potions that you can get at any shop for next to nothing. But like I never use combat items like Grenades or special status effect items. I don't know why, but I never think to look in my inventory during a fight just to find some item that might do a little bit of wind damage or some shit to the enemies.
Another issue is that in turn based games using an item takes up a characters entire turn in most of them so the item has to be damn important to use. Criminal Girls actually was rather innovative in that the teacher character you play as can use an item while still doing their normal directions for the combat characters so I would actually use items regularly in that game to support everything else I was doing. As I've said before, it also actually had its status effects be useful and required to fight both bosses and normal enemies without getting wrecked so it's innovative in a lot of ways.
 

Eacaraxe

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No game design should ever involve the words "Force the player...." Because a player should never be forced to use a tactic that doesn't agree with their playstyle. To literally offer the gamer options of countless weapons but then deny them the right to chose what they like best is simply a stupid design.
The counterpoint being, pick a Bethesda game made since Oblivion. Where enemies do have individual strengths and weaknesses and do nominally require the player switch it up to prevail...none of which matters, because crafting, grinding, and certain skill selections are imbalanced to a point of allowing players to brute force basically the entire game with a single given behavior. And guess which behaviors gamers gravitate towards and base their entire perception of the game around?

Just consider how most gamers perceive Skyrim's magic system. Pound for pound it was the most powerful and accessible magic's been in the entire game series for how prohibitively expensive powerful magic was in past installments, and it's constantly bashed for being "weak" (a lot of which is misplaced anger over removal of spellmaking). Most players don't even seem to consider Destruction "viable"...but only by way of comparison to the game's broken and imbalanced blacksmithing and enchanting, even destruction is perfectly adequate to continue playing through high levels.

It just requires not running around trying to blast mobs in the face like an absolute prat.

And actually, in BotW I was perfectly able to pick and choose whichever weapons I wanted for any given encounter. Because I picked and chose my engagements, avoided those that weren't worth my time or the resources, kept weapons in my inventory proportionate to unavoidable lower-level encounters, kept stuff in my inventory to play to the key attack combos, and still had ample room to spare for the high-powered shit when it came time to fight Lynels which were the only genuinely challenging encounters in the game.

It's funny, because another Bethesda game forced players to change weapons and tactics on the fly in a way much more restrictive and overt than BotW ever did: Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. 'cause health/armor were limited, you ran out of ammo quickly, the only sustainable way to replenish either were to perform executions, and even imps were powerful enough to wreck your face unless you adapted your weapon choice and tactics to the circumstances. For all intents and purposes the Bethesda Doom games are heavily influenced in terms of resource management by survival horror games, despite that being obfuscated by the game's '90s mobility shooter pace and gameplay loop.

Yet, for some reason that never really seems to come up when discussing this aspect of game design in various discussions across the internet.

And of course, basically the entire RTS genre bases its core gameplay around adapting to constraint, and forcing players to adapt even though they may not "agree with" a given playstyle. Sure, in for example SC/BW or SC2 you could turtle every game, but good luck beating the single player on higher difficulties or getting out of silver league doing that shit. I don't agree with six ling rushes, but I'm forced to scout that out, and if I spot an early spawning pool I'm forced to react...and if I say, "no I don't think I will, I don't agree with that and I should get to play the way I want, that's just bad game design", I fucking lose the match.

Just like they're guaranteed to when I successfully defend the six ling rush and play to macro, because the other player chose a high-risk all-in play and have zero choice from that point forward other than doubling down hoping I fuck up my micro. Now I ask, is that bad game design?

Far Cry 2 had a shotgun that visibly degraded with every shot. And enemy-dropped weapons were always worse off than those the player unlocked from an arms dealer (some guns would break after a couple dozen shots)...
There's more realism in that than you may realize with smoothbore guns. Shotguns are dirty as hell, and fouling of the barrel and chamber can cause pattern degradation, jams, worst case scenario if you haven't done your maintenance in a while are broken firing pins and springs. If you're in a survival situation, at that point the gun's basically toast. That's actually one of the reasons the Henry AR-7 survival rifle has been considered one of the worst rifles ever made, its cheap manufacture and propensity for jams and mechanical failure...in a rifle that's supposed to be for wilderness survival, where your absolute priority is reliability.

The issue is, that's a concern over the span of hundreds of shots, and weeks or months of regular use without proper maintenance, as opposed to dozens of shots or over days outside some pretty extreme scenarios. Like, for instance, the debacle that was the rushed design, production, and introduction of the M16 in Vietnam.

The far bigger gripe to me with shotguns in video games is range. Shotguns in video games are represented accurately...if you're firing #9 birdshot. My home defense load of choice is #7, in fact. Buckshot is lethal out to 80-100 yards, though pattern spread and reliability limits its effective range to about 50 yards, and slugs are lethal out to like a thousand yards provided you can hit at that range (meaning its effective range is about 150-200 yards).

The most realistic depiction of shotguns in a game I can remember off the top of my head is Battlefield Bad Company 2, where shotguns have real life effective ranges. My loadout of choice was recon with a Model 870, and my favorite moment from that game is still the time I scored a 600-yard headshot with a slug.

But I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. If shotguns were depicted accurately in most FPS games, maps tend to be so small the only guns anyone would ever use would be street sweepers.

I'd argue the best way to make players shift tactics and adapt is to make the enemy AI and armor/defense actually force a change in tactics, not gimp the weapons.

We're not talking limiting the Infinity + sword to a couple uses or a long recharge to keep you from spamming it to victory(unless you get it at the end of the game where that's the point), we're talking about "My IRON SWORD somehow broke from hitting a squishy mook too many times" because that's how iron works now. :rolleyes:
Counter-example: Halo 2. Halo 2's AI was just downright evil, it was the apex of the series and in my opinion better than Half-Life 2's. You can visibly see the change in Covie behavior between difficulty settings: not much difference in easy and normal, but when you get into heroic and legendary it gets pretty obvious when the AI starts engaging in covering fire, rolling advances, area denial, and lateral movement from points of defilade.

Most gamers just didn't seem to notice how damned good Halo 2's AI was until viewing it in retrospect, contrasted against Halo 3's and Reach's comparatively poor AI. I'd chalk that up to how overpowered and common Halo 2's power weapons were in the campaign, Halo 2's ludicrous health/shield regen, and the questionable balancing of the BR, in addition to exploit-y ish like BXR/BXB. Phenomenal AI, it just didn't have a whole lot of impact in terms of influencing how players engaged with the game.
 
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CriticalGaming

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And actually, in BotW I was perfectly able to pick and choose whichever weapons I wanted for any given encounter. Because I picked and chose my engagements, avoided those that weren't worth my time or the resources
So you were forced to pick and choose when to engage with the game and when it was best to simply run around and do nothing? See that's the problem with BOTW is that it actively works against the player. It's an open world in which the player can do anything, but doesn't actually encourage the player to do anything. This is either because they fill the world with pointless enemy camps that aren't worth the time to deal with, which BTW exist simply because they needed a way to give the player junk all the time so that the player would always be able to get some sort of weapon, and shrines which only serve to build up your stats after you do a painfull number of samey puzzles or fights. Otherwise you can take on the big four dungeons and Ganon.

This doesn't include the environmental effects that require tedious prep to deal with. Too cold, find the right meal to make and stock up or you die. Too hot, find the right meal and stock up. These environments actively discourage the player from exploring because ultimately what is the player going to find? Yet another shrine? And more weapons that will break rapidly. All under limited time effects because you can only explore for so long until you run out of food. Or there are gear sets that will negate that but it's a lot of effort for no reward at the end of the day.

If the weapons didn't break, then you could have given players reasons to fight all the random camps, and filled them with more meaningful enemies because they could assume the player would have certain weapons by the time you got to that portion of the map.

The weapon degradation is a root in which the rest of the game looses purpose. When everything you can possibly find will break after a couple of enemies, then why even bother? Hunting and exploring ultimately means nothing to the player because everything is temporary, and precious. That badass weapon you found? Well don't use it because it'll break so save it for a boss.

Just everything hinders the player's fun imo that I don't know why the game ended up being so appealing. Maybe just blind devotion to Zelda games.
 
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Agema

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...but only by way of comparison to the game's broken and imbalanced blacksmithing and enchanting, even destruction is perfectly adequate to continue playing through high levels.
Actually, yes. Crafting.

I've come to dislike crafting. I don't mind the odd bit of potion mixing, occasional item repair and adding scopes onto weapons and stuff. But it's turned into a whole complex subgame that's worth precious little.

Again I hold to this view are you a fighter, a mage, a thief, an alchemist, or a blacksmith? Pick a fucking job and stick with it. If you want to play at medieval smith simulator, make horsehoes (magical, if you prefer) and stop hitting dragons.

Crafting annoys me for the sheer, stupid grindiness of going and finding shit and fiddling around with anvils and gunsmith tables, and then if you're unlucky also have to unlock various forms of magic / tech powerups into them too. Yeah, you might be able to turn that crap into high level kit. But aside from that, it's a colossal load of arse. I would prefer to just have a supersmith quest mission to get a few things and he'll turn me out something awesome.

It gets even worse (Bethesda) with the nerfing of unique, legendary items. You go off and kill the Great Demon Lord Kabazagh to recover the legendary, fabled Mighty Swword of Dobbah! that was wielded by the kingdom's founder two thousand years ago and blessed by the gods themselves. You check out the Swword's stats and... seriously guys? I could make these. I could go back home grab some ore from my chest and some other doodads and turn out 20 of them by the end of the month.

And yet crafting has got nothing on architect / interior decorator simulator and community leader for brain aching tedium. Because what else could I want to do with a world to brutally pacify but build houses, beds, furniture, water pumps and plant pumpkin patches for witless peons, who need me to decide what they should grow for a balanced diet and every four days send me a whiny message complaining bandits are attacking them and asking me to come help, because those 15 gun emplacements and bunkers I also had to build for them apparently aren't enough.
 
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Dreiko

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Visual novels are not RPGs. You can make an RPG that doesn't have combat as combat is not a requirement to be an RPG.
A game where you see a story and walk around and talk to people and make choices without combat is basically what occurs in 99% of visual novels.
 

Phoenixmgs

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A game where you see a story and walk around and talk to people and make choices without combat is basically what occurs in 99% of visual novels.
I played Ace Attorney and Danganronpa (horrible horrible game) and neither are RPGs and they're visual novels.
 

Thaluikhain

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Actually, yes. Crafting.

I've come to dislike crafting. I don't mind the odd bit of potion mixing, occasional item repair and adding scopes onto weapons and stuff. But it's turned into a whole complex subgame that's worth precious little.

Again I hold to this view are you a fighter, a mage, a thief, an alchemist, or a blacksmith? Pick a fucking job and stick with it. If you want to play at medieval smith simulator, make horsehoes (magical, if you prefer) and stop hitting dragons.

Crafting annoys me for the sheer, stupid grindiness of going and finding shit and fiddling around with anvils and gunsmith tables, and then if you're unlucky also have to unlock various forms of magic / tech powerups into them too. Yeah, you might be able to turn that crap into high level kit. But aside from that, it's a colossal load of arse. I would prefer to just have a supersmith quest mission to get a few things and he'll turn me out something awesome.

It gets even worse (Bethesda) with the nerfing of unique, legendary items. You go off and kill the Great Demon Lord Kabazagh to recover the legendary, fabled Mighty Swword of Dobbah! that was wielded by the kingdom's founder two thousand years ago and blessed by the gods themselves. You check out the Swword's stats and... seriously guys? I could make these. I could go back home grab some ore from my chest and some other doodads and turn out 20 of them by the end of the month.

And yet crafting has got nothing on architect / interior decorator simulator and community leader for brain aching tedium. Because what else could I want to do with a world to brutally pacify but build houses, beds, furniture, water pumps and plant pumpkin patches for witless peons, who need me to decide what they should grow for a balanced diet and every four days send me a whiny message complaining bandits are attacking them and asking me to come help, because those 15 gun emplacements and bunkers I also had to build for them apparently aren't enough.
Dunno, before I inevitably get bored with Skyrim and stop playing, a lot of the stuff I do seems to revolve around crafting, with dungeon crawling and monster hunting being a means to that end. And using the console to lower my level because crafting mucks up my character optimisation or whatever.