172: Heathens by Design
- Thread starter Anthony Burch
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Maybe a little bit of a stretch, but an interesting comment on game design (and game designers 
)
Flip it the other way around; what if there were a game made to tailor to the faith side of the argument? You're in the middle of a bossfight, getting your ass kicked. Ten minutes ago, you watched a cutscene where a character talked about 'having faith' and 'not fighting', and you're wondering if it might have been a hint. Meanwhile the boss is chipping away at your life bar and you're out of lives (or phoenix downs, what have you). Do you keep fighting and pursue the story in that direction? Or do you put down the controller and trust that the world (THIS world, anyway) is as orderly and poetic as you'd like to think?
Food for thought at least.
While I'm at it, the assertation that games are anti-theistic by nature might not be accurate. You have your choices, but you're always headed in one direction. The nature of the world (sandbox and a few other genres not included) is ultimately linear; doesn't this raise questions of predetermination and destiny?
Maybe the player isn't god simply because he directs Mario. After all, if the player were god, Mario could be whatever the player willed him to be; or, more succinctly, mario wouldn't be necessary to save the princess at all.
Instead of being all-powerful or even free of will, however, you can only will mario to do what is reasonably expected of mario to do in a given situation: namely jump, twirl, and go 'yahoo'. As the unreachable omnipotent force that created the world, maybe the DESIGNERS are god, and mario is humanity, in control of his own destiny.
Therefore as the intermediary, maybe the player represents nothing more or less than causality; the pieces have been put into play, each subject to their own rules, and the player is only the necessary catalyst to propel each into action.
Of COURSE mario will jump on the heads of things and save the Princes; that's what Mario does. But he needs to be turned on (so to speak). As the player, you are what allows the universe to function as a dynamic environment, ie causality.
Or entropy?
(bit-by-bit, causing the universe to end?)
Have faith! Miyamoto has a plan!
)Flip it the other way around; what if there were a game made to tailor to the faith side of the argument? You're in the middle of a bossfight, getting your ass kicked. Ten minutes ago, you watched a cutscene where a character talked about 'having faith' and 'not fighting', and you're wondering if it might have been a hint. Meanwhile the boss is chipping away at your life bar and you're out of lives (or phoenix downs, what have you). Do you keep fighting and pursue the story in that direction? Or do you put down the controller and trust that the world (THIS world, anyway) is as orderly and poetic as you'd like to think?
Food for thought at least.
While I'm at it, the assertation that games are anti-theistic by nature might not be accurate. You have your choices, but you're always headed in one direction. The nature of the world (sandbox and a few other genres not included) is ultimately linear; doesn't this raise questions of predetermination and destiny?
Maybe the player isn't god simply because he directs Mario. After all, if the player were god, Mario could be whatever the player willed him to be; or, more succinctly, mario wouldn't be necessary to save the princess at all.
Instead of being all-powerful or even free of will, however, you can only will mario to do what is reasonably expected of mario to do in a given situation: namely jump, twirl, and go 'yahoo'. As the unreachable omnipotent force that created the world, maybe the DESIGNERS are god, and mario is humanity, in control of his own destiny.
Therefore as the intermediary, maybe the player represents nothing more or less than causality; the pieces have been put into play, each subject to their own rules, and the player is only the necessary catalyst to propel each into action.
Of COURSE mario will jump on the heads of things and save the Princes; that's what Mario does. But he needs to be turned on (so to speak). As the player, you are what allows the universe to function as a dynamic environment, ie causality.
Or entropy?
(bit-by-bit, causing the universe to end?)
Have faith! Miyamoto has a plan!
I just wanted to applaud the Escapist for daring to enter the troubled waters of religious discussion, and poking at games with the religion stick. As a game designer of many years, I can emphatically state that publishers deliberately stay away from something this touchy and controversial. And yet a quick glance at any news source shows the effect of religion on our daily lives. Games are a medium of expression, and in a perfect world game devs would be free to explore religion as well as any other topic. But the real world of corporate funded game development is governed by fear of litigation and negative publicity, and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Frankly this week's topic has worked as an artistic endeavor already, as I had NEVER thought about standard religion and games in any combined fashion prior to this. I don't know how games would incorporate religion into them, but it seems inconceivable that games would be the only artistic medium that did not.
Mario is anti-theist?
The last game had rosalina, a woman who raises baby planets and stars as her children.
She is easily a creator god, she's just perhaps not omnipotent, her awesome power is in making the universe not in smiting the infidels.
So yeah, mario is clearly in a universe with a divine creator. She just doesn't happen to do much other than create.
The last game had rosalina, a woman who raises baby planets and stars as her children.
She is easily a creator god, she's just perhaps not omnipotent, her awesome power is in making the universe not in smiting the infidels.
So yeah, mario is clearly in a universe with a divine creator. She just doesn't happen to do much other than create.
And anything 'can' happen. An ape can be born with the ability to learn and speak any language on the planet. A big pile of poop could appear above your head and cover you in it. Just because its possible doesn't mean it's plausible.ZeroMachine post=6.74602.840477 said:
Anyway, article seemed to grasp at straws from the very beginning.
Perhaps it is the unofficial and often unmentioned God of the Mushroom Kingdom who controls exactly when one of those mother pluckers riding a cloud will (or won't) chuck out a spiky red guy just as you're trying to jump on him.
And maybe it's the unnofficial and similarly unmentioned God of the Pokemon world that decides when you get that desperately needed critical-hit or miss.
Maybe it's not and we're all getting a bit too deep...
And maybe it's the unnofficial and similarly unmentioned God of the Pokemon world that decides when you get that desperately needed critical-hit or miss.
Maybe it's not and we're all getting a bit too deep...
If anything, this travesty of an article highlights for me that if there is a god figure in games, it is the developer. They set the rules, the enviroments that live by those rules, and change it to their will. If anything games are more of a proof for the existence of god, a being that sets (and tweaks with bug fixes, patches, and expansions) the rules a universe lives by. How much choice a player's character has is set down by the developer.
Sheesh, even then, this article is an exercise in, as others put it, "grasping at straws". FFS, these are games we are discussing, not your eternal soul or lack there of.
Sheesh, even then, this article is an exercise in, as others put it, "grasping at straws". FFS, these are games we are discussing, not your eternal soul or lack there of.
I think the biggest problem with your theist/anti-theist argument is that you assume a certain type of god: ominpresent, omnipotent, all-powerful. You also assume this god would directly interact with the day-to-day lives of the characters. I'm not aware of any god in any religion that fits this bill.
The Christian god is all-powerful and all-knowing, but he specifically stands back until somebody asks him for help. Incidentally, this is exactly what happens in many games -- try playing a fantasy game as a paladin or priest. God's might is exercised through the character when they ask through prayer. This seems quite theist to me.
On the other hand, the Norse and Greek gods were quite hands-on, but only when they wished to be. They had strong personalities and would argue and fight with each other by manipulating the people in the world. Usually, they didn't have so much control as to just make somebody drop dead -- their power was limited to influencing people's decisions and the external world. This certainly echoes in games like Black & White where two gods fight each other through influencing people in the world.
Given your assumption of the role of a god, I can see where you make your argument, but I'm afraid your argument doesn't make sense when other interpretations of "gods" from common religions are considered.
PS: I'm Athiest myself. Of course, that doesn't mean I think all games are and must be anti-theist. Besides, game mechanics can always be designed to match how some people believe the world works, even if that isn't how our world works (and I'm not saying it isn't).
The Christian god is all-powerful and all-knowing, but he specifically stands back until somebody asks him for help. Incidentally, this is exactly what happens in many games -- try playing a fantasy game as a paladin or priest. God's might is exercised through the character when they ask through prayer. This seems quite theist to me.
On the other hand, the Norse and Greek gods were quite hands-on, but only when they wished to be. They had strong personalities and would argue and fight with each other by manipulating the people in the world. Usually, they didn't have so much control as to just make somebody drop dead -- their power was limited to influencing people's decisions and the external world. This certainly echoes in games like Black & White where two gods fight each other through influencing people in the world.
Given your assumption of the role of a god, I can see where you make your argument, but I'm afraid your argument doesn't make sense when other interpretations of "gods" from common religions are considered.
PS: I'm Athiest myself. Of course, that doesn't mean I think all games are and must be anti-theist. Besides, game mechanics can always be designed to match how some people believe the world works, even if that isn't how our world works (and I'm not saying it isn't).
I'd also like to echo what others have said: just because a game doesn't mention God, doesn't mean they are anti-theist.
Games are based around a set of mechanics and a story, which is supposed to convey a certain message. This isn't much different from a book or a movie. They are worlds in-and-of themselves, but they aren't complete descriptions of an entire world -- they are a window into that world. Just because that view doesn't show God as being front-and-center to the message, doesn't mean the world doesn't have or couldn't have a God of its own; it just means the message isn't about the presence or absence of a God.
This is no different than not seeing characters use the washroom, eat, or sleep. We assume these things happen, we just don't focus on them because they aren't part of the message. Games can be and are the same way -- just because we don't see the influence or presence of a God in the game world doesn't mean it can't and doesn't exist.
Games are based around a set of mechanics and a story, which is supposed to convey a certain message. This isn't much different from a book or a movie. They are worlds in-and-of themselves, but they aren't complete descriptions of an entire world -- they are a window into that world. Just because that view doesn't show God as being front-and-center to the message, doesn't mean the world doesn't have or couldn't have a God of its own; it just means the message isn't about the presence or absence of a God.
This is no different than not seeing characters use the washroom, eat, or sleep. We assume these things happen, we just don't focus on them because they aren't part of the message. Games can be and are the same way -- just because we don't see the influence or presence of a God in the game world doesn't mean it can't and doesn't exist.
I just don't get where the author gets the idea that games are antitheist. In particular his argument about games like Metal Gear. Though agreeably, the idea of a game without an all powerful influence controlling the fate of the players and NPCs is very appealing, I yet to find one where this happens. Anyone with the most basic programing knowledge can see the hand of the creator (be the designer, in this context) at any turn.
There is little to no free will in today games. There might be a million ways (or just one) to kill the antagonist, but rarely there is another option (being those: finish the game, or stop playing). Here, the influence of a faith controlling "god" is indisputable.
Take Valve's Left 4 Dead new "director" feature. There it is a game deity right there on the marketing campaign.
I believe that the author is basing his thesis on an idea of a benevolent god that "should do miracles" for the player, and not the idea of a god that is there "for the drama" (which is what a benevolent god should do in the context of interactive fiction: giving the player what he needs, instead of what he wants.).
And in the topic of miracles, I can remember a few moments playing half-life (among other games), where I was pushed against an unbeatable enemy, and then, some scripted sequence dropped out of the blue, and an NPC came to the rescue. You know, something that from the avatar's point of view should look like, well...
There is little to no free will in today games. There might be a million ways (or just one) to kill the antagonist, but rarely there is another option (being those: finish the game, or stop playing). Here, the influence of a faith controlling "god" is indisputable.
Take Valve's Left 4 Dead new "director" feature. There it is a game deity right there on the marketing campaign.
I believe that the author is basing his thesis on an idea of a benevolent god that "should do miracles" for the player, and not the idea of a god that is there "for the drama" (which is what a benevolent god should do in the context of interactive fiction: giving the player what he needs, instead of what he wants.).
And in the topic of miracles, I can remember a few moments playing half-life (among other games), where I was pushed against an unbeatable enemy, and then, some scripted sequence dropped out of the blue, and an NPC came to the rescue. You know, something that from the avatar's point of view should look like, well...
I don't think these sorts of games imply that they have no god, just that that god is a non-interference god.
It could be argued that the programmer is God. He dictates what the game is, what it will do and, ultimately, how it will end, even in games like Spore. But the programmer is a non-interference god and, once He has made His world, doesn't muck about with it any further because He has given you the free will to choose what you do and how you do it by yourself. (I know some games have greater degrees of freedom than others but in the end there are always choices to be made.)
It could be argued that the programmer is God. He dictates what the game is, what it will do and, ultimately, how it will end, even in games like Spore. But the programmer is a non-interference god and, once He has made His world, doesn't muck about with it any further because He has given you the free will to choose what you do and how you do it by yourself. (I know some games have greater degrees of freedom than others but in the end there are always choices to be made.)
Actually, the only two perfect, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent beings I know of are: God ,from Christianity, cuz the mere mention of His name would likely cause your head to explode (too awesome to comprehend) and Allah. Take Odin and Zeus for instance. They were the principal gods of their people, but they are in no way perfect, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Odin can't fend off the end of the world (Ragnarok) and Zeus more often than not succumbs to worldly desires (which explains why he has so many children).
I remember reading the tale of creation on my own with my new-found deductive logic (I think I was 14 then). It said that God created man in "our image". Does that mean that God wasn't the only being at the time of creation? Because in the rest of the Bible, He seems to appear only as light whenever he shows himself or gives a sign to a prophet.I think I just derailed this thread... Please don't hurt me.
I remember reading the tale of creation on my own with my new-found deductive logic (I think I was 14 then). It said that God created man in "our image". Does that mean that God wasn't the only being at the time of creation? Because in the rest of the Bible, He seems to appear only as light whenever he shows himself or gives a sign to a prophet.I think I just derailed this thread... Please don't hurt me.
... I'm not even going to read this article because I fear the stupid will eat my brain.
Mario disproves god? Cracka' please (I'm white so I can use that word don't judge). Poor form for a magazine to try and address god or religeon. Going to have to give you a pass.
Mario disproves god? Cracka' please (I'm white so I can use that word don't judge). Poor form for a magazine to try and address god or religeon. Going to have to give you a pass.
Are you serious? Mario believes in some sort of god! How else could he even exist in a mushroom kingdom? This was stupid and pointless. And yes, I did read it before I wrote this, so don't say that I didn't read it.