The general attitude here is stunning...but perhaps it's because we're dealing with someone who is actually addressing the issue instead of turning it into a big farce for the sake trolling ad-hits and money for her kickstarter.DevilWithaHalo said:
1ReasonWhy We Need_to Change the Way We Fight Against Sexism
- Thread starter rbstewart7263
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You know, they never had this argument when pong was coolest game around. Maybe we should all just play more pong?
Also, I think it would be interesting if someone brought up the lack of female players in the madden game series. No? Ok, shutting up now.
Also, I think it would be interesting if someone brought up the lack of female players in the madden game series. No? Ok, shutting up now.
So she details at length the amount of gatekeeping that she has faced which is none. then she states that there is sexism in the industry. She never said there wasnt gatekeeping. She said the way some people try to tackle the problem do it in a way that creates more problems.zefiris said:
It sounds like she's lived a very blessed, very sheltered life.
But... honestly, she's still in her undergrad, and it's hard to take a single, limited experience as anything more than a footnote.
Not that she isn't eloquent, not that she doesn't have a point (that I even agree with, albeit to a limited degree).
I hope she goes forward and her life continues in such a wonderful way.
But... honestly, she's still in her undergrad, and it's hard to take a single, limited experience as anything more than a footnote.
Not that she isn't eloquent, not that she doesn't have a point (that I even agree with, albeit to a limited degree).
I hope she goes forward and her life continues in such a wonderful way.
Even if she did use a fallacy in there, I read it and I don't think she did, calling it wrong would be an argument from fallacy. Even if she did use a fallacy, I can't know because you don't list any making this also anonymous, doesn't mean she is wrong.zefiris said:
It also looks like you are suffering form a bias blind spot based on you last statement. You assume that everyone here has a self-serving bias, and you don't. Your just as human as anyone else, you can fall to the same self-serving bias as anyone here. As can I.
But this girl is in video game school. That's almost similar to having work experience in the actual video game development industry!zefiris said:
That would have been fine for a rambling Deviantart journal, but for Gamasutra the whole thing was just kind of weird. Most of her points are super obvious shit that most everyone already agrees about, and for all she was going on about that Twitter thing, I don't recall reading any actual examples of why it's so bad. That and the fact that she's never actually worked in game development, that tends to keep you sheltered from the things you're trying to write about. I'm sure it's a great and safe way to get people to like you, though!
Heh. That's a thought.erttheking said:
Too bad gamers on the internet are not only the farthest thing from calm and rational, but are too irrational to even consider doing something about it. I mean, you'd think a decent amount of people would pick up on the fact that creating a hostile environment leads to hostility.
So who here has industry experience that can confirm that its an actual pain in the ass going to college or getting a job in the gaming industry as a woman?DaphneRose said:
If not Im going to have to go with goering being as she would have actual experience to back up her claims as ratherthan those attesting to her naivety.
I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.
That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!
Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.
Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.
I'll just leave this here
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/
That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!
Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.
Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.
I'll just leave this here
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/
can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jkMoonlight Butterfly said:
Well, they don't care, so it's unsurprising people owuld infer a lack of care from careless actions.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Yeah, and I'm for people being outspoken about this fact at the risk of "dividing" and "offending" people.Lilani said:
I'm all for getting along and playing nice. But I don't think being quiet is going to help anything. Some people to be offended and divided over this sort of thing. And that's okay.
Hitting roadblocks is part of a job that has a hierarchy, even I, a dude that made a thing that while everyone agreed that it was good, even my boss, the higher ups didnt agree to keep it because there were all these bullshit agendas that they had going on. My boss told me after receiving the word to abandon it "Welcome to the working world".Phasmal said:
There is a lot of "lookout for yourself" in it and everything that comes as a roadblock cant be seen as "is it because I'm a woman?", if they want they will mess with you no matter if you are a man or a woman.
He's already been "doing" He created a user group [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/The-Videogame-Gender-Debate-Group] for this specific purpose and there have been no flames.Zachary Amaranth said:
Kim Swift @K2theSwiftrbstewart7263 said:
Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy
http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012
Taken from these twitter links.
A highly competative environment, strict time tables, constant funding issues, sometimes hilariously shady business practices, publisher direction, lack of steady work, etc. It's a weird (and annoying) industry, it's a pain to get into and remain in for *everyone*.rbstewart7263 said:
Not a woman, but I've seen many women come and go. Some were steller I'd hire in a heart beat. Some ended up on my blacklist for various reasons. Same for the men.
The big problem is people taking their personal experinces and applying them to the whole, not keeping in mind that each situation is different and should be treated as such. Or perhaps, confusing the situation as a gender problem and not something else (like intentionally disregarding the art directors instructions multiple times thinking you know better).
No time for people who moan about their problems and blame it on other things oh its my age its my colour its my religion its my sex whatever I dont give a shit. There will always be problems some bigger than others and there will never be equality among all things lifes not like that everyone thinks differently and has different ideas after all and a lot of people like to follow the path of least resistance as its a hell of a lot easier.
The best thing to do if you want something is to go for it in earnest like the person in the OP article is doing and anyone that does that has my respect even if I dont like them personally or what they stand for or are trying to achieve. Sometimes blocks can seem insurmountable but if you are just fighting an idea or misconception its extremely possible to overcome at least on a personal level results are hard to ignore after all and if a few trailblazers make their way others will follow.
I usually find that a lot of issues are only helped a certain amount by talking about it action is what is needed spend to much time talking about something and it will never happen (not saying never talk either btw or that it never helps)
The best thing to do if you want something is to go for it in earnest like the person in the OP article is doing and anyone that does that has my respect even if I dont like them personally or what they stand for or are trying to achieve. Sometimes blocks can seem insurmountable but if you are just fighting an idea or misconception its extremely possible to overcome at least on a personal level results are hard to ignore after all and if a few trailblazers make their way others will follow.
I usually find that a lot of issues are only helped a certain amount by talking about it action is what is needed spend to much time talking about something and it will never happen (not saying never talk either btw or that it never helps)
Read the article, that is one incredibly wise woman. She's got the right outlook and she's on the right track, I wish her the best of luck.
I hope the rowdy Escapist crowd learns from her, along with the rest of the gaming industry (and video game feminists especially, despite most of them having the perspective of a teaspoon)
I hope the rowdy Escapist crowd learns from her, along with the rest of the gaming industry (and video game feminists especially, despite most of them having the perspective of a teaspoon)