2020 is delayed

[BrawlMan]

And the cycle of crunch continues. I won't buy the game out of guilt.

 

[FakeSympathy]

You know, I am starting to lose faith in these game delays. Used to mean better quality end product. Recent years have shown that delays meant the game is bad, it won't get any better.


Last Guardian? Delayed to hell and ended up subjectively bad

No man's Sky? Delayed (and even received death threats) and ended up with bare-bones content. Kudos for cleaning up the mess, though

Mighty No. 9? Delayed due to poor management AND ended up bad.

Crackdown 3? Delayed and ended up being somewhat WORSE than the previous games

Final Fantasy XV? Delayed and ended up with lots of cut content and mediocre gameplay


I can go on like this, but my argument is that most delayed games end up bad or mediocre at best. Now granted there are delayed games that did end up being really well, but those are getting fewer and fewer. For Cyberpunk 2077 to be delayed five months and expecting a crunch, it tells me something is HORRIBLY wrong with the game currently

 

[CritialGaming]

And the cycle of crunch continues. I won't buy the game out of guilt.

Yeah let those employees suffer for no reason! You show them. Punish them and yourself!

Take your stance if you want, but you punish yourself out of a game you might really love and you throw away all that hardwork (justified or not) from those employees away.

 

[Yoshi178]

And the cycle of crunch continues. I won't buy the game out of guilt.

Yeah let those employees suffer for no reason! You show them. Punish them and yourself!

Take your stance if you want, but you punish yourself out of a game you might really love and you throw away all that hardwork (justified or not) from those employees away.

you could say that about not wanting to buy literally any videogame out there.

not everyone cares about Final Fantasy or Cyberpunk as much as you do.

 

[BrawlMan]

And the cycle of crunch continues. I won't buy the game out of guilt.

Yeah let those employees suffer for no reason! You show them. Punish them and yourself!

Take your stance if you want, but you punish yourself out of a game you might really love and you throw away all that hardwork (justified or not) from those employees away.

This isn't about punishment. I buy games for my reasons and my reasons alone. Not because: "Everybody is doing it!". The only ones punishing are the publishers themselves, and the ungrateful, moronic customers that treat developers like automatons and not fucking actual human beings. I buy games to have fun, and good conciseness, I can't support a publisher that stresses out their employees and learn nothing from the past mistakes they made. Like Jim said, there is some double standard going on because it's CDPR and not Activision, EA, nor Rockstar. I won't apologize. CDPR, you're becoming just like most of the others. Remember that.

If I ever do buy Cyberpunk; it's because I goddamn feel like it. And when the games comes out on the 17th, that will be a no.

 

[Dalisclock]

Yes.

The expansions of both Stellaris and Europa Universalis 4 are late as well.

Don't both of those games already have like 10 expansions each, in typical paradox fashion?

 

[Dalisclock]

You know, I am starting to lose faith in these game delays. Used to mean better quality end product. Recent years have shown that delays meant the game is bad, it won't get any better.


Last Guardian? Delayed to hell and ended up subjectively bad

Or subjectively good, but whatever.

Yeah, it's not SOTC but nothing is really and it's hard to hold that against it. It's more like ICO but with a far more expansive set of ruins to transverse and a companion with a bit more agency(one who doesn't just stand there and wait to be kidnapped if you leave her alone for 5 seconds).

 

[Worgen]

Well, I guess that will leave time for Resident Evil 3 and Borderlands 3 when they come to steam. Plus I'll have to catch up on Doom Eternal since I think its coming out around the same time as HalfLife Alyx and I didn't get a steam index to not play the hell out of that.

 

[Casual Shinji]

You know, I am starting to lose faith in these game delays. Used to mean better quality end product. Recent years have shown that delays meant the game is bad, it won't get any better.


Last Guardian? Delayed to hell and ended up subjectively bad

Or subjectively good, but whatever.

Yeah, it's not SOTC but nothing is really and it's hard to hold that against it. It's more like ICO but with a far more expansive set of ruins to transverse and a companion with a bit more agency(one who doesn't just stand there and wait to be kidnapped if you leave her alone for 5 seconds).

It also has ghastly controls, a horrid camera, and narration that ruins every scene it's in. I mean, I quite like TLG; Ueda's world is always a magical experience and Trico is an absolute triumph in design, animation and sound, but Christ is it hard to sort through the shittiness in order to get to the quality. And I can fully understand why someone would go 'yeah, to hell with this'.

 

[Satinavian]

Yes.

The expansions of both Stellaris and Europa Universalis 4 are late as well.

Don't both of those games already have like 10 expansions each, in typical paradox fashion?

For EU4 i finished my Korea and my Japan campaign recently and am pretty much done with all the stuff i wanted to do after the Manchu update. The next update will rework the HRE and i look forward for another try to fully reform it as Thuringia or Saxony.

Stellaris gets a federation rework (which is necessary, before federations were basically not worth the hassle) and, most importantly, origins, which will allow to model certain favorite sci-fi civilisations much better than before. As campaigns take a while, i will start the next one after i can actually do that.

 

[Dalisclock]

You know, I am starting to lose faith in these game delays. Used to mean better quality end product. Recent years have shown that delays meant the game is bad, it won't get any better.


Last Guardian? Delayed to hell and ended up subjectively bad

Or subjectively good, but whatever.

Yeah, it's not SOTC but nothing is really and it's hard to hold that against it. It's more like ICO but with a far more expansive set of ruins to transverse and a companion with a bit more agency(one who doesn't just stand there and wait to be kidnapped if you leave her alone for 5 seconds).

It also has ghastly controls, a horrid camera, and narration that ruins every scene it's in. I mean, I quite like TLG; Ueda's world is always a magical experience and Trico is an absolute triumph in design, animation and sound, but Christ is it hard to sort through the shittiness in order to get to the quality. And I can fully understand why someone would go 'yeah, to hell with this'.

Tis fair.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention how your attempts to get trico to move could be irritating, since that's one of the chief complaints and somewhat warranted as well(On one hand, Trico is a semi-feral monster and not a dog. OTOH, sometimes he decides to go in the exact opposite direction you've requested of him...over and over again).

 

[Elfgore]

Eh? March and April are still heavily loaded. Pirate Warriors 4, Persona 5R, Gears Tactics, and Doom Eternal. In May we got Last of Us II. I'm fine with spreading that out a bit.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

It also has ghastly controls, a horrid camera, and narration that ruins every scene it's in. I mean, I quite like TLG; Ueda's world is always a magical experience and Trico is an absolute triumph in design, animation and sound, but Christ is it hard to sort through the shittiness in order to get to the quality. And I can fully understand why someone would go 'yeah, to hell with this'.

I don't really get the control or camera issues at all. All you have to do in the game is run around, jump, and climb and the controls never failed me or caused me to die. Sure, the whole climbing on big creatures is wonky at times but no dev has perfected that and you're never under time constraints when doing it. Compare that to the massive issues Uncharted's controls have that were never fixed in the entire series that fail you at critical moments constantly. The camera also never bugs out while you're running around actually doing stuff. Sure, it freaks out when your on Trico and you're going through tunnels/doorways or jumping around the environment. But that's just stuff that makes the game feel unpolished vs an actual playability issue. I would've preferred the narration not be there, but it doesn't ruin any of the reveals at the end. It only reveals that the boy doesn't die obviously and is probably there to make players think...

Spoiler

Trico dies

I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention how your attempts to get trico to move could be irritating, since that's one of the chief complaints and somewhat warranted as well(On one hand, Trico is a semi-feral monster and not a dog. OTOH, sometimes he decides to go in the exact opposite direction you've requested of him...over and over again).

I had a small handful of issues with that obviously, but nothing too frustrating. I even one time got Trico to get me to a place I totally wasn't supposed to go. I basically forced him to go the totally wrong way and do the whole thing where he lifts ups up to a high ledge so you can jump to it. I wonder if there's some AI coding to Trico where he'll listen to you more if you treat him properly. I learned most of the time if you pay attention to Trico, he's leading you the right way so you should work with him vs against him.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

And the cycle of crunch continues. I won't buy the game out of guilt.

Yeah let those employees suffer for no reason! You show them. Punish them and yourself!

Take your stance if you want, but you punish yourself out of a game you might really love and you throw away all that hardwork (justified or not) from those employees away.

Or, y'know, we can properly attribute blame to incompetent publishers instead of trying to guilt people into buying something.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Last Guardian? Delayed to hell and ended up subjectively bad

Isn't saying "subjectively bad" like describing a glass as "half empty"?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Tis fair.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention how your attempts to get trico to move could be irritating, since that's one of the chief complaints and somewhat warranted as well(On one hand, Trico is a semi-feral monster and not a dog. OTOH, sometimes he decides to go in the exact opposite direction you've requested of him...over and over again).

This is honestly the least of the game's problems. If you know the specific sound Trico makes once a command has been received it's easy to distinguish when you're giving the right commmand and when you giving the wrong one. And also to not spam commands.

I don't really get the control or camera issues at all. All you have to do in the game is run around, jump, and climb and the controls never failed me or caused me to die. Sure, the whole climbing on big creatures is wonky at times but no dev has perfected that and you're never under time constraints when doing it. Compare that to the massive issues Uncharted's controls have that were never fixed in the entire series that fail you at critical moments constantly. The camera also never bugs out while you're running around actually doing stuff. Sure, it freaks out when your on Trico and you're going through tunnels/doorways or jumping around the environment. But that's just stuff that makes the game feel unpolished vs an actual playability issue. I would've preferred the narration not be there, but it doesn't ruin any of the reveals at the end. It only reveals that the boy doesn't die obviously and is probably there to make players think...

Spoiler

Trico dies

Except Shadow of the Colossus had an ideal climbing mechanic that they could have moved wholesale to TLG, minus the stamina gage. In SotC the climbing feels organic; You need to hold a button in order to actually hold on, you weren't magnetized to a colossus' fur. This gave you a level of control over your climbing no other game has ever surpassed. In TLG you have to sluggishly traipse yourself across Trico, because the game locks you onto him as if you're covered in velcro. This makes it so that climbing Trico always feels like a chore, where you're constantly hammering the X button to try and detach yourself from him, because you can't simply let go or jump off him without the annoyance of the kid auto-locking back onto him.

The game also suffers from massive input lag, sometimes with buttons not responding initially when your on Trico. Petting Trico almost always requires a second press of the O button, because pressing and holding it once will often just not do anything. And then there's the giant button prompts which show up for every interaction with a switch, a barrel, a spear, anything, which you can't disable in the options. The controls never become organic or "invisible". And the camera is headache inducing, and not just when you're on Trico. The camera just moves awkwardly and slow. It's like you're playing a Souls game, but the camera is resting on a waterbed. And the combination of the kid's jerky-ass movement and the auto-stop near edges makes for some incredibly clucky maneuvering in tight spots, like high walkways, wooden beams, broken staircases.

Then there's the moments where the game makes you wait for shit to happen, like when you're trapped in the rolling cage or you're hanging from the branch by your collar. Or in the final sequence where it's supposed to be really exciting as you're (auto-)hanging onto another Trico flying around, but the whole sequence is entirely scripted with zero danger, and it goes on for way too long.

And speaking of that spoiler, the game pulls that way too many times as well. Like, how many times does that almost happen? Four times? And each time the game seems to milk it for all it's worth. 'Oh no, now it might REALLY bu true!' Yeah right.

 

[CritialGaming]

I wanted to add into this conversation that I don't mind delays in general. However I would say that the FF7 delay of a few weeks makes very little sense in my mind. Considering the epic level of marketing (my local game store still has 3.3.20 posters everywhere) and how small of a delay it is, just doesn't make much sense. Especially considering how far ahead of release they need to put the game onto discs and ship them all over the world so that the game in available in stores on or before release day. How much more could they put into the game or whatever that couldn't be impliemented into a Day 1 patch by the time the game came out at normal time? I don't really know.

Cyberpunk and Avengers makes a lot more sense. Especially Avengers because that game didn't look all that close to completion when they last showed gameplay for it. These month long delays offer plenty of development time to finish up the game and get it to a state in which the company is happy with it for release.

Not that I want FF7 delayed any longer, I'm just saying.

 

[CritialGaming]

Yeah let those employees suffer for no reason! You show them. Punish them and yourself!

Take your stance if you want, but you punish yourself out of a game you might really love and you throw away all that hardwork (justified or not) from those employees away.

Or, y'know, we can properly attribute blame to incompetent publishers instead of trying to guilt people into buying something.[/quote]

Except CDPR is both developer and publisher here so that doesn't make sense.

Look crunch is a thing in the real world. Surprise surprise but the world isn't perfect and isn't made of candy cane and rainbows. People have to work to make their careers, sometimes they have to work a lot, and is it healthy? No it isn't but the alternative is not having a job or a stable life. Business doesn't care about your health, and very few companies in the world have a no-overtime policy.

Starting lawyers work incredible hours to win cases, business men work weekends and late into the date on business trips and meets all over the world. Overtime is a part of work life, and since I've worked in the game's industry myself many moons ago, I know for a fact it isn't all the time. On any game project, your development cycle is anywhere from 3-5 years from greenlight to release. During this time overtime only becomes a factor near release date, usually the last 3-4 months of a project in which developers work 12hr shifts. Sometimes this period is less and sometimes it's longer, but it's overall a very small portion of the project in the long run.

These crunch periods always make the news and they are never painted by the whole picture. Yes there is a lot of overtime for relatively small periods of time, then it all goes back to normal when people are moved to different projects. Only rare exceptional disasters of developments are littered with constant overtime crunches, and those are usually projects that get shit canned really quick, or become Anthem.

The point is overtime is a part of life. It isn't great, but it's just how business works. It's fine to punch a clock exactly at 5pm when you work a shithole job like fast food or something. But when you are in business, when you are in a career, you almost never get to bolt out the door the moment your "shift" is over.

So when people take the stance of "I wont buy this game because they were forced to crunch to finish it" You basically are saying, "Fuck your hard work and long hours." Frankly it isn't even a smart stance because that means you can't ever buy any video game ever made. Because every game has overtime, from developers to testers, you are always forced to do overtime. It wont change, you aren't going to stop it.

Also think about the stories you don't hear about. You think Ed McMullin isn't putting a shitload of hours into Super Meat Boy? Or Toby Fox busting his ass for Undertale? Just because you don't hear about it being forced by a publisher, you don't think these solo developers aren't doing it too? Hell the solo or small team indie folks are probably working even harder and longer than any AAA crunch period. Yet you dont hear about it why? Because there isn't some faceless company to get mad at about it. That's all it is.

Ya'll wanna tell me none of you have never been forced into overtime? Or forced to work extra shifts?

 

[stroopwafel]

I don't get crunch. I mean, Cyberpunk was teased in like 2012 or 2013. Then years go by when we hear nothing of the game. Then out of the blue a seemingly arbitrary release date is picked. People get hyped for that release date, but sorry release date gets delayed and developers need to spend months on end in the offices. Why? Announce the game later. Announce the release date later. Choose a large time window. If they announced the release date at this year's E3 for beginning of 2021 look how happy people would be if they were able to *gasp* release the game earlier.

Like I said, if people wait since the early years of last decade for this game it's not like a few more months will make a difference. Unless you get them excited over nothing. This whole crunch thing is just bullshit and a totally unnecessary problem of their own making.

 

[BrawlMan]

Except CDPR is both developer and publisher here so that doesn't make sense.

Look crunch is a thing in the real world. Surprise surprise but the world isn't perfect and isn't made of candy cane and rainbows. People have to work to make their careers, sometimes they have to work a lot, and is it healthy? No it isn't but the alternative is not having a job or a stable life. Business doesn't care about your health, and very few companies in the world have a no-overtime policy.

Starting lawyers work incredible hours to win cases, business men work weekends and late into the date on business trips and meets all over the world. Overtime is a part of work life, and since I've worked in the game's industry myself many moons ago, I know for a fact it isn't all the time. On any game project, your development cycle is anywhere from 3-5 years from greenlight to release. During this time overtime only becomes a factor near release date, usually the last 3-4 months of a project in which developers work 12hr shifts. Sometimes this period is less and sometimes it's longer, but it's overall a very small portion of the project in the long run.

These crunch periods always make the news and they are never painted by the whole picture. Yes there is a lot of overtime for relatively small periods of time, then it all goes back to normal when people are moved to different projects. Only rare exceptional disasters of developments are littered with constant overtime crunches, and those are usually projects that get shit canned really quick, or become Anthem.

The point is overtime is a part of life. It isn't great, but it's just how business works. It's fine to punch a clock exactly at 5pm when you work a shithole job like fast food or something. But when you are in business, when you are in a career, you almost never get to bolt out the door the moment your "shift" is over.

So when people take the stance of "I wont buy this game because they were forced to crunch to finish it" You basically are saying, "Fuck your hard work and long hours." Frankly it isn't even a smart stance because that means you can't ever buy any video game ever made. Because every game has overtime, from developers to testers, you are always forced to do overtime. It wont change, you aren't going to stop it.

Also think about the stories you don't hear about. You think Ed McMullin isn't putting a shitload of hours into Super Meat Boy? Or Toby Fox busting his ass for Undertale? Just because you don't hear about it being forced by a publisher, you don't think these solo developers aren't doing it too? Hell the solo or small team indie folks are probably working even harder and longer than any AAA crunch period. Yet you dont hear about it why? Because there isn't some faceless company to get mad at about it. That's all it is.

Ya'll wanna tell me none of you have never been forced into overtime? Or forced to work extra shifts?

Crunch is bullshit. If you can't see that, it's your problem. Overtime is one thing, but working your employees to death or insanity is another. Especially when the big suits, don't suffer and reap everything from those that put in the effort. And then the publishers go boasting about it like it's some lifetime achievement to drive your workers to death. If you want to buy the game, no one is stopping you. Your little speech is nothing more than a pathetic "That's life. Somethings you can't change." You're part of the problem. Me buying their game, ain't gonna stop their bullshit. If you cannot see that, then we have nothing left to discuss.