212: Destroy All Consoles

Indeed

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Jul 29, 2009
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I'd love to destroy all consoles. Not that I have a grudge about a game the consoles ruined... err maybe I do. Deus Ex 2. It was meant to be the awesomest game ever. Until the filthy console decided to cannabalize off of it. When they made it for the console they dumbed everything down so much the game was like a plain chip, who likes plain chips? I'd prefer a world where the pc could reign unchallanged, better games, better quality, don't get me started on the controls, better product.
 

Royas

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Apr 25, 2008
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I don't think this is going to take off quite like it's being made out to. Given that ISP's are starting to choke the amount of feed you can get from broad band connections (limiting your GB per month and things like that), this doesn't seem to be a great idea. Also, what are they going to do to solve control latency? Lag, a single bad node, the actual limited speed of light... all of these things could cause severe issues in an action game. That's fine for people who want their multiplayer, it comes with the territory. For a single player game, I wouldn't find it acceptable.
 

Silva

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Apr 13, 2009
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This is the pep talk and PR campaigning of a small business taking on big business. Ironically, the big business seems to be the less greedy of the two.

The "moneywall" concept, as I've seen it implemented so far in Korean-based games such as Gunbound and Grand Chase, has been a disgraceful, crude and unsubtle attempt to make money out of virtual items. More to the point, it limits the amount of enthusiasm the sensible gamer will pour into the game if the only way to get certain shiny or high-stat items is to pay real money (which, let's face it, will probably be the case if the free-to-play concept comes to dominate game streaming).

The sick thing about this is that across the Pacific, Western developers have been hard at work trying to stop people from selling their in-game content to each other. Many of us gamers probably thought they were stopping this out of the good of their hearts, so that skill remained the controlling aspect of achievement in gaming. This push for free-to-play just might reveal that in fact, the problem developers have with these exchanges is that it is the consumers profiting from these greedy exchanges, rather than the developers themselves.

The fact of the arts is that old mediums do not "die" when new mediums are created, except when the whole related industry conspires to make it happen. This was true of theatre when film was produced, and for film when video games started their early development. Streaming, as a new way of connecting to software, is not excluded from that rule, and so consoles will survive. To claim otherwise is to make a spurious and risky predictive claim that will prove as stupid as the idea that we were going to have flying cars by the 21st Century.

The only huge difference between streaming and console gaming is not in favour of streaming advocates. The problem is the incapability of the backbones of the Internet to actually deal with the amount of growth it's facing without the addition of something that requires millions of 5 mbps connections for HD input/output visuals. (Keep in mind that HD visuals are exactly what the consumer will expect after using PlayStation 3s and Xbox 360s for ten or more years.) There is no way a useful number of people can pay the excessive download and upload fees for an especially powerful connection that, by the way, is not even available in virtually all the nations on Earth.

Streaming won't be massively popular. It won't even reach the city limits. The moment you go rural and get away from those amazing yet unstable cable connections in the United States, you'll find that higher end game streaming will completely stop working. This is a rich man's toy we're talking about, which is probably why OnLive are focusing on free-to-pay games that remove any "moneywall" - the only people who can afford even one of the requirements will have a lot of disposable income anyway.

If game streaming technology ever becomes 500% more sustainable and efficient than it is, then let me know, because only then will it become successful.
 

Viruzzo

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Jun 10, 2009
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The world is not ready for this tecnology, and the business model behind it seems awful. It's not going to work ever, not even in 10 years: by the time the infrastructure becomes suffcient for that kind of traffic, we will have another higher quality video format (UHDV maybe), and at least one new generation of consoles with much more computing power and better graphics.

Silva said:
The moment you go rural and get away from those amazing yet unstable cable connections in the United States, you'll find that higher end game streaming will completely stop working.
Exactly. And it's very naive of them not to consider the other countries: even if they had servers in Europe, the quality and avalaibility of fast connections is far worse than USA's. If they hope to replace consoles, they would have to do that worldwide, which is many orders of magnitude more impossible than making the service work decently in America alone.
 

transformania

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Jul 30, 2009
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I think the trickiest thing to figure out is the business model. But I'm not a businessman, so I can't contribute any insight.

I do know a lot about tech, though, and it seems that most persons who are skeptical have misconceptions about what would be happening under the hood if this tech actually worked.

(ok, here's the part where I reveal that I've been an IT manager for 8 years but prior to that worked as a game artist, and I teach game art/graphics classes on the side. Oh, and I worked in a graphics research lab for a while too).

First, Streaming HD "video"...

OnLive says it's going to be 720p, not 1080p, which is more than twice as many pixels. They also offer to stream the games at 480p if your 'net connection can't handle the 720p.

But the more important thing to know is that is not streaming video. It's streaming graphics.

Video compression algorithms are very complex. Their job is to take a *flat* moving image and figure out what in there is an object, so to speak, and try to use that to make "layers" so that can further break down the image until it consists of rudimentary moving "parts", the motion of which are easier to describe. Anyhow, to the computer a video clip just looks like a bunch of animated paint smearing around; it cannot see it the way human vision can, which makes its job hard. In essence, the compression algorithm tries to reconstruct "the scene" in a video, because the video was, at one point, actually 3d (if we're talking filming actual reality).

Streaming graphics, on the other hand, is much easier since *you already have all the actual 3d information of what is contained in the image*. 3d games contain real 3d coordinates, and descriptions of how light interacts with the surfaces draped across those points in space.

If you've got that info, you can render frames in your game's engine directly to compressed video, instead of projecting on to a flat image, and then ask a video compression algorithm to "figure out what just happened" in that image compared to the previous one.

So streaming graphics, like streaming video, only sends the changes that occur between the current frame and the last (so entire frames are not sent every 30/sec), but streaming graphics knows exactly what is going to change, whereas streaming video has to make "an educated guess". And when is guesses poorly, you see video compression artifacts like macroblocks, fuzzy edges, degraded quality et al.

In short, much much more efficient, which is why the streaming aspect of OnLive is feasible, in my opinion.

Second, yes the interaction is two-way, whereas passive media is one-way, but it's not symmetric. The amount of data you send is *extremely* small in comparison to what is sent to you. You're only sending controller data (orientation of the analog sticks and button on/off state each frame). That's nothing.

Now to the server aspect of OnLive...

In order for this to work and take the load, not only will they have to have the most cutting-edge virtualization technology *and* clustering technology, they will have to have figure out how to extend such technology (which currently exists and works well and is magical) to the GPU.

Not to go into too much detail about virtualization and clustering, but in essence you can make a bunch of machines act as one machine, or one machine act as multiple machines. You put those together, and you've got a system where the total load of all the games being played can be distributed among all the machines in any combination or slicing you want, and that configuration can be changed in the blink of an eye.

For instance, one of these beefy servers could probably host 10 simultaneous games of Lego BatMan (keep in mind, these server computers are well beyond any desktop PC you could build, which is pricey, but that pays for itself with the load sharing).

This system could also go the other way if someone is playing Crysis, and the demand of the game eclipses the capabilities of one physical server, another server that has 20% of its CPU free (because it's only hosting 8 games of Lego BatMan at the moment) could contribute its last 20% to help render some of the terrain in that game of Crysis.

What if one server is hosting 10 games at once, which is its max load, and the players in 3 of those games all get to the same crazy boss at the same time, which has more complex graphics? Would the server catch on fire? Would it reduce the framerate for everyone else being hosted? Not necessarily.

In a move related to the "over-commit help" scenario I described with Crysis above, the virtualization monitor could move one of the hosted Lego BatMan games from the overloaded server to another, unloaded server within in a split second, without interrupting the action as perceived by the player on the other end. This is known as live migration, and has been around for a while for servers. Can they do it with a game? Perhaps they can with the right support from the GPU manufacturers.

Next up is the problem with hardware getting old and the continuous upgrade problem. This is actually one of the easier things. New servers can be put in every year that have twice the power as the previous ones. You install them ahead of the projected need, and then (because you already have super amazing virtualization & clustering in place), you move all hosted games onto them, seamlessly, then ditch the old servers making room for even more new ones, and so on. Plus, any game popular enough to stick around (like Lego BatMan, for example) will become even less of a burden on the system as time goes on (new servers in the future could host 40 games of Lego BatMan at once).

Finally, latency. Ah yes, this is the biggest *technological* sticking point. If they can't solve this then OnLive won't be worth it. Some games deal with latency well (non-twitch action games, turn-based games, etc). But others demand low-latency. Supposedly you can't tell if the latency is under 30ms, and that latency up to 90ms is "acceptable". I can't really say, it depends I guess.

Regardless, it has to be low and stay low. Obviously there's the argument that commodity internet link speeds (and latency) will continue to improve, which is true, but how fast?

The best thing OnLive can try to do in the short term is try to become an ISP, or at least set up their server farm right next to an ISP. So instead of signing up for Internet service with Comcast or Verizon, you sign up with OnLive, or an OnLive partner. This could spell disaster for ISP's who don't partner with them, if OnLive actually takes off, creating a terrible situation for consumers.

Ok this post was long, but I've been wanting say all that for a while, and so I picked this site it seems to dump out my thoughts.

As for my personal feelings, they're mixed. I would be sad to see the end of hobbiest building monster PC's just to play Crysis, but I think the potential advantages would probably outweigh those feelings in the long run.
 

Silva

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Apr 13, 2009
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Viruzzo said:
Exactly. And it's very naive of them not to consider the other countries: even if they had servers in Europe, the quality and avalaibility of fast connections is far worse than USA's. If they hope to replace consoles, they would have to do that worldwide, which is many orders of magnitude more impossible than making the service work decently in America alone.
To add even further to your point, Europe (especially considering, for example, the Netherlands, which has brilliant broadband) pales in comparison to the problems game streaming would run into in Australia. Over here, the average broadband connection speed is 256kbps. That's simply not enough. Even if you doubled that to 512k, which is similarly average here, that's not enough to stream a Youtube video in real time while playing it, so forget game streaming working in full screen, let alone in HD.
 

N0Nlethal

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Jun 14, 2009
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The Problem that I see with streaming games are the gamers with friends. I mean would we be able to take our games wherever we go and share them with our friends or would everyone need to buy the game? Now this doesn't go alongside the whole free to play idea but it still poses a problem for the games that will have a starting fee. I just don't want to see the casual gamers downfall because of the move to streaming games. All gamers have had that "Halo" experience where one friend buys the game and then his three friends and him/her stay up all night playing together, I wouldn't want it to destroy that type of interaction because those are some of my favorite gaming experiences.
 

Rigs83

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Feb 10, 2009
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I stopped playing on consoles the day my Xbox died and can't bring myself to justify buying another console when it is the same price as a car payment. I would sign up for streaming games like the ones talked about here and I think the consoles makers , specifically Nintendo, would eventually use a similar set up to extend the lives of their hardware.

Hardware is sold at a lost for the first year/s or so after launch and as anyone who has gotten a red ring of death can attest, is fraught with potentially embarrassing moments.

We are already streaming movies so I can't see why streaming games would be seen as insane. Right now people are paying sixty dollars US for a piece of plastic with a manual you will never read. Of course some die hards want the night vision goggles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93130-Updated-Modern-Warfare-2s-Ridiculous-Prestige-Edition] so let them pay a fortune to get it but give everyone who is streaming it a discount like paying something like thirty or forty dollars US.

Granted the lag will drive the hard core crowd mad, not because it would really effect the gameplay so much so as it gives them another reason to yell at the monitor [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwOv0xg31nk].
 

Jsnoopy

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Nov 20, 2008
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hmmm..... I don't actually think this will work, but I do hope it mixes things up in the console market, i.e. microsoft sees the onlive service as a threat and begins to offer select games for streaming for all Xbox Live Gold members, so you would actually get something out of paying 50 bucks a year for.
 

Kuchinawa212

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Apr 23, 2009
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What about my favorite number?

Reading....

Oh. Nah they aren't coming to an end. They may not live up to big wars over which is better that they do know, but they shall always be there. At least I hope so
 

Strategia

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Mar 21, 2008
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Shh..... quiet. Do you hear that? From the future? That's the sound of all those fanbois screaming because their life's worth is falling apart around them. Aaah, so very sweet.

This would be awesome, yes, but it shouldn't replace the current model entirely. Or otherwise there should be an option to download the stuff to your computer/console/whatever directly, for modding purposes. Although I do see how it would be possible to have the modding part online as well, which would be very handy for mod teams. But in case you're going to be stuck without 'net access for a while (e.g. you're moving to a remote island in the South Pacific or something), the option to download should still be available.
 

Midniqht

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Jul 10, 2009
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im waiting for failure on this, really. i dont think it's possibly to make streaming 100% lag free in gaming for everyone, because it doesn't just depend on the service, it also depends on your connection as well. there's problems with lag as it is on console, how do they intend on fixing it without one?

also, i like having the physical console & game. it would be convenient for my stuff to be floating on the "cloud computing" concept, but even if they do manage to make a dent in the gaming market against consoles, i dont think it will be the end of consoles "for good"

edit: wouldnt services like OnLive have to get their own games and people to develop for them? i doubt nintendo, sony and M$ are gonna just let them have the titles that keep them going.
 

Rect Pola

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May 19, 2009
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Making it work is inevitable, but losing a tangible sense of ownership is a far bigger hurdle. I say "sense of ownership" because it's not just not having discs; direct download has that issue now - but the fact you don't directly own what you access is more painful.

I got a taste of that when I got Steam to get the Secret of Monkey island. Coming from Telltale and Greenhouse, I was stunned Steam was tied to my ability to play. Figuring out offline mode made things better, but my point is the other guys give me what I paid for and stay out of my fun.

If either of them or the big 3 shut down today, I would still have my soft/hard copies of the things I spent money on and (since I'm not into live gaming) they'd work just fine until the device I spent money on died.
 

Tiamat666

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Dec 4, 2007
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zoharknight said:
Personally i don't see this streaming games only thing working ...Nowadays huge games like GTA 4 or Fallout 3 would take hours just to stream...
I think you misunderstood the technology. The game is not streamed on your machine. It runs on the servers of the provider. The only thing that is streamed is the video output. So, the game logic runs on the server, the graphics are rendered by the server and the result is streamed for you to see, much like a YouTube video. The game would run almost instantly on your screen, without you having to install or download anything.

I'm also a little sceptical about input-lag for realtime games. But even with input lag there would be a market for this. Think of strategy and casual games. With this technology you could continue that game of Civilization IV on your cellphone or run the newest games with the latest graphics on old hardware. All it takes is a display and an internet connection.
 

CyberKnight

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Jan 29, 2009
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I already don't like the idea of digital downloads. People herald it as the killing blow to the evil empire GameStop, and they think that makes it all right, but it ignores the drawbacks:

* You don't own anything. You can't resell it, trade it, borrow it, loan it, rent it, or even give it away.
* They may not be around forever. Xbox Live has always bragged about the "delete it, you can always re-download it again at any time forever" feature (as an excuse for their undersized and overpriced hard drives) -- but there are two games (besides Yaris, which by many definitions doesn't even count as a game) that no longer exist on XBLA because of licensing issues.
* They require the internet. I don't know about you, but my "always-on" cable internet connection is not 100% stable. If I'm playing a disc-based game in single-player mode, that doesn't matter to me...
* The market is fixed. Want to go retro and pick up a copy of Call of Duty 2 on disc on the open market? You can find copies for less than five bucks. (True story.) Want to buy the map packs from the Xbox Marketplace? You'll be paying the original price and end up spending more than the actual game.

Even if they solve all the technical problems around I/O lag, etc., it won't change any of the above.
 

GonzoGamer

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Apr 9, 2008
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I'm not a huge fan of digital distribution but if the consoles are heading in the direction they're in now, the console makers know that they can get away with releasing a console at any price they want and gamers will pay it or release a shiny spontaneously combusting brick and gamers will buy it.

If that's what we can expect from future generations of sony & ms products, maybe it's time for the console era to come to an end the same way the arcade era did. If these things work as well as they say, the console will be obsolete.
 

TheIr0nMike

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Mar 3, 2008
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I don't know about OnLive. While I do like the idea of being able to have access to any game, I'm skeptical about the idea of having only one source for games. Plus I don't think that games that are in the same style as flash games would be able to hold up very well.