222: Straight and Narrow

[Bigeyez]

Every minority that does not fit the white-male-heterosexual mold has had to claw and bite its way toward acceptance and representation, and gay gamers are no exception.

This bit sums up the whole article quite nicely. There's not very much in there that hasn't been said about a different minority too, is there? There has been plenty of discussion about the elitist culture of what people call 'hardcore games/gamers'. For a long time the majority of the gamer community consisted of white adolescent males. I happen to be (or rather, was) one of them. You're saying that the gaming community is maturing, and that's because video games are being made for a broader spectrum of people. We've got games now for everyone, but does that mean all games should be fit for everyone? Of course, we don't need any more of the horribly clichéd Hero-Man and Romance-Girl Adventures, but on the other hand, I don't see why homosexuality needs to be a bigger part of videogames.

These two comments sum up my thoughts pretty nicely. With time as gays become accepted in society we'll see more gays and gay issues in videogames and other forms of media. Like with every other minority in history, it is just a matter of time.

 

[Dudeakoff]

What a dreadful vision of the future. "Diversity" trumping competence in the case of game developers; "diversity" trumping story in the case of game design.

If it helped make better games I'd be all for an eternal ban on gay protagonists. I play to have fun; not to be subjected to tirades about persecution and shoehorned "moral lessons".

Movies can be enjoyable whilst also containing 'moral lessons', why can't games? And that's not to say that all games have to contain startling social commentary, in the same way that movies like Zombieland are still being released and enjoyed.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

*Snip*

Let's turn it the other way then. If there wasn't a single white heterosexual lead character, how would you feel?

This argument has been used before, and it just doesn't work. One of my favourite characters is the Pyro from TF2 and we don't even know its race/sex or orientation. Why? Burning.

It's one thing to say "Well it just doesn't matter" and another thing entirely to experience the sense of being ignored in media.

Again, there's a very dangerous sense of prejudice there. I do not directly relate to a single white heterosexual lead male because he is that. I relate to people for who they are. Funk's article talks about being a "'Net-tranny" and I've been one for some time. A lot of my characters are female, have a race different to mine and I really don't care who or what they boink.

For example I'd quite like to play a female Alex Mercer-type character. I'd have LOADS of fun dancing around some quarantined city slicing people to pieces and generally being the biggest dick I could. Pity there's yet to be a game like that in a similar spirit.

City Of Villains/Champions Online. Female bodytype. Snowdrop was working her way towards being part of Ghost Widow's entourage.

A shout out to Vampires! The Masquerade: Bloodlines though. Doesn't matter the sex of your character, you can still sleep with Jeanette whenever you like.

While my female Malk thought it'd be far funny to seduce Damsel and leave Tourette to continue sleeping with the Nosferatu.

No you're not necessarily racist, sexist or homophobic by benefit of being a white heterosexual male. Doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't have a slice of the market for our own representation, or be treated with due respect in the face of people who use "fag" like punctuation.

But I think this is where there's a huge leap of anger where there might not be an agenda.

As we've shown, or as the Japanese have stated, you have a character "do a hot chick" and sales shoot up, and it doesn't matter if the character is a woman or not.

Yosuke Hayashi has said that men love tits, and men don't have tits. (usually: Edmund Honda might be an exception) So having a male/male relationship doesn't have any tits. We can't have that if we want to sell to men!(!)

However, look at the recent crop of vampire, yaoi or slash media. Boy on boy/Girl on girl action to the extreme. Even Twilight plays around with the gay stereotype in order to appeal to women, where Interview with the Vampire went right ahead with it.

Now, let's say that I want to see a married couple in game, and I'd like to play the husband. Name me a game that the happily married husband goes off, doesn't get involved with someone else and then returns to a happy (non-murdered) wife.

I honestly don't think it's about who's boinking who, it's about who sells, and if you had a publisher producing games about gay men then it'd be mostly women buying them.

As for lesbian games, one word: twing-twang [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1-Heavenly-Sword-and-Other-Stuff].

 

[Biek]

If we assume that the gay gaming community have the same ratio as average homosexuals (10%) then that would mean there would be a risk that the game would only appeal to 10% of their usual target audience. Im not sure how much money it generally costs to develop a game these days, but I think developing a game knowing that it will only bring up roughly 10% of the profit it could otherwise make is a bad idea business wise.

But typing this down leads me to another question: How would the protagonists sexual preference show? Few games have romance in them. What if Master Chief, Solid Snake or Mario was gay. How would the game be different? How would it show?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Final Thought for the day:

Zoey, Bill, Louis and Francis.

Which one(s) is gay, how do you know and why would it matter?

 

[Labyrinth]

*Snip*

Of course it's about what sells. The whole thing is about what sells. However, there's still an untapped audience.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

I know Link's always off to save the princess, but I think we've all understood that he's not exactly on the straight and narrow. I was once camp counselor to a bunch of 10-year-old boys, and they asked me if Link had a boyfriend. They knew. I even knew, 10 years earlier. Link hasn't even had to come out of the closet. He's always been out and proud.

 

[JakobBloch]

But typing this down leads me to another question: How would the protagonists sexual preference show? Few games have romance in them. What if Master Chief, Solid Snake or Mario was gay. How would the game be different? How would it show?

This is a very good point. There are so many games out there with voiceless faceless cardboard cutout protagonists that could as well be a homosexual as a raging homophobe frothing at the mouth. As such all of these games don't count. Then there is the big chunk of games that simply does not take a stand on the matter. These don't count either.

So we have left with a (rather big) group of games that have a heterosexual main character. Now I am gonna cut away the ones that depict raging psychotics as the protagonist right of the bat as I am pretty sure that your average active gay (as in gay who is very high on the whole social equality thing) will scream murder when they saw this proclaiming that it is homophobia in diquise. Fortuantely these are in the minority but there are enough of them to make the debate ONLY about the insignificant fact that the psychotic protagonist is gay.
So now we move into the numbers game (with a dash of creativity). If you want to tell a story of tragic love or happy endings (or lack thereof) you are going to reach a far greater demogrphic with a heterosexual approach. It kinda comes down to this: Do you want to risk that 10% of your customers feel left out or that 90% might feel uncomfortable playing your game.

However I can see that it would probably be fitting for more rpg's and sandbox games to offer the possibility of a gay protagonist but again it depends on the story the creator wants to tell. In most other games however it is far more profitable to ignore the issue

All that being said I can't help looking forward to having your sandard dark, ruggedly handsome protagonist agree with his obligatory female sidekick when she comment on the butt of men in uniforms.

/Jakob

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

*Snip*

Of course it's about what sells. The whole thing is about what sells. However, there's still an untapped audience.

Agreed. But it's not just about HATE HATE HATE.

Let's take a quick example, Half Life 2.

Now at the end,

Spoiler: Huge Spoiler

Eli dies. If Gordon's voice is heard at the end saying "NOoooooo!", then we've basically established why there's not as much frissance between him and Alyx, and raised questions about the relationship with G-Man. You could even put an anti-feminist agenda in there as Alyx hasn't heard "Our Mutual Friend" and even that the relationship between Eli, Gordon and the G-Man is sexual as well.

That's one phrase that changes the entire game without changing anything. What's to stop you hearing that in your head?

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Um...you know, I can't tell...is that a serious question?

Does this mean every minority must be represented now? Asians, Atheists, Unicyclists, Geese Jugglers, Pirates, Ninjas, Sentient AI etc? Oh wait

So, you're ok with ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't the majority?

Well, as long as they aren't being represented in a bad light, why would this be homophobia?
I just don't get it.

 

[crotalidian]

I remember hearing/reading that enchanted arms had some very intersting character interactions (OK its a JRPG so we're expecting androgynous sexually confusing characters) but they included and openly gay/bi relationship between 2 NPCs and a young girl dominating a Large macho male.

I think that we will start to see more favourable homosexual representations in games but as much as developers may want to start working with Gay lead characters a 10% demographic will keep it to low budget/Indie games and the fear of the homophobic gaming community boycotting any future games (which as per xbox live may mean a big loss of custom!)

Also did anyone else question themselves after finding out Kuja was actually a guy....?

 

[warrenEBB]

* I agree with the notion that most game characters could be gay.
Why is it offensive to be saving a princess? (Are you saying gay men would not save a princess? what?) All of the left4dead characters could be gay.

* the article seems to be saying: "just let us save a prince now and then. We don't need sex. It's disturbing that we haven't been given more of a nod."
(though I'd argue that Wario and Tingle are pretty clearly out. And if dumbledore and gandalf are identified with the gay movement in pop movies, aren't they also thusly identified in games?)

* I think the really tricky part of this is: most games revolve around violence.

If you make more gay leads, then you open the gay movement up to more criticism from anti-gay organizations.
I think it'd be awesome if marcus fenix just tore off his armor and had some grisled hard core sex with his buddies as the credits rolled. But then gears of war would be attacked for portraying gay men as crazed murderers.

(why is it that straight men never complain about heterosexual men being portrayed as blood crazed maniacs? Why is this kind of celebrated with a macho smile?)
...part of me thinks gay men would be better off if they said "hey, we like murder almost as much as straight people." ... but it's dangerous water to tread.

* It would be interesting to see an investigation into "how much gay" is needed to:
- cause a national outcry
- hurt sales

(seems like there are these swirling gut-feelings about controversy helping sales, controversy only being pursued against major publishers, etc. but has this been settled? If Gears of War had a notably gay character, would it sell less? or is that a homophobic supposition?)

 

[similar.squirrel]

What would an 'openly gay' character be like, exactly?I have one or two openly gay friends, and I didn't find out about their orientation for months. It's just something one tends to overlook when talking to a person, because it really doesn't/shouldn't matter.

Sure, Bernie from GTA4 is gay. Very inclusive and so forth. But it's hardly an accurate representation of gay people in general, is it?Almost like a parody, I found..
I mean, they used the Euphoria engine to code and custom run for him..

Including same-sex relationship choices in RPGs is great. It adds verisimilitude, can let players who happen to be in the closet to come to terms with things and so forth, but having an openly gay protagonist would most likely end disastrously, unless the game itself was themed around a stereotypically 'gay' topic.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Um...you know, I can't tell...is that a serious question?

Does this mean every minority must be represented now? Asians, Atheists, Unicyclists, Geese Jugglers, Pirates, Ninjas, Sentient AI etc? Oh wait

So, you're ok with ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't the majority?

Well, as long as they aren't being represented in a bad light, why would this be homophobia?
I just don't get it.

I didn't accuse you of being homophobic. To say you don't care about a group that doesn't include you isn't the same as saying you hate or fear them.

But again, I ask, are you ok with games ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't part of the majority? Because that's what you're suggesting. You're absolutely right that it would be at best ungainly and at worst impossible to cater to literally every minority group out there, but does that mean the correct answer is to ignore them all? It's easier to go with the majority, so let's just do that, and if you don't happen to be part of the majority, then, gosh, I guess it just sucks to be you? Pretty unfair.

Not being cast in a good light is sometimes just as bad as being cast in a bad light. In other words, it doesn't really matter if you're not the villain if you also never get to be the hero.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Um...you know, I can't tell...is that a serious question?

Does this mean every minority must be represented now? Asians, Atheists, Unicyclists, Geese Jugglers, Pirates, Ninjas, Sentient AI etc? Oh wait

So, you're ok with ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't the majority?

Well, as long as they aren't being represented in a bad light, why would this be homophobia?
I just don't get it.

I didn't accuse you of being homophobic. To say you don't care about a group that doesn't include you isn't the same as saying you hate or fear them.

But again, I ask, are you ok with games ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't part of the majority? Because that's what you're suggesting. You're absolutely right that it would be at best ungainly and at worst impossible to cater to literally every minority group out there, but does that mean the correct answer is to ignore them all? It's easier to go with the majority, so let's just do that, and if you don't happen to be part of the majority, then, gosh, I guess it just sucks to be you? Pretty unfair.

Not being cast in a good light is sometimes just as bad as being cast in a bad light. In other words, it doesn't really matter if you're not the villain if you also never get to be the hero.

Ok I guess.
But I think the way Lionhead pulled it off was just fine. (well except it wasn't because marriage in Fable means friggin nothin, but still)
I might be a homophobe for this, but I really can't see the reason behind making the gamer control a gay protagonist.

 

[cainx10a]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Um...you know, I can't tell...is that a serious question?

Does this mean every minority must be represented now? Asians, Atheists, Unicyclists, Geese Jugglers, Pirates, Ninjas, Sentient AI etc? Oh wait

So, you're ok with ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't the majority?

Well, as long as they aren't being represented in a bad light, why would this be homophobia?
I just don't get it.

I didn't accuse you of being homophobic. To say you don't care about a group that doesn't include you isn't the same as saying you hate or fear them.

But again, I ask, are you ok with games ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't part of the majority? Because that's what you're suggesting. You're absolutely right that it would be at best ungainly and at worst impossible to cater to literally every minority group out there, but does that mean the correct answer is to ignore them all? It's easier to go with the majority, so let's just do that, and if you don't happen to be part of the majority, then, gosh, I guess it just sucks to be you? Pretty unfair.

Not being cast in a good light is sometimes just as bad as being cast in a bad light. In other words, it doesn't really matter if you're not the villain if you also never get to be the hero.

Ok I guess.
But I think the way Lionhead pulled it off was just fine. (well except it wasn't because marriage in Fable means friggin nothin, but still)
I might be a homophobe for this, but I really can't see the reason behind making the gamer control a gay protagonist.

The player DOESN'T NEED TO be able to control a homosexual character, but he can choose to.

The problem is not whether we the heterosexual crowd are being favored by having heterosexual lead characters (I mean, Master Chief, Doom Guy, and The "Freeman" could be gay, it's never clearly specified whether or not MC would want to date Commander Keyes, Cortana or Johnson and we are not exactly being harassed about their sexual disposition during their/our adventures in the game right), however when you look at Mass Effect for example where Commander Sheppard can't get Aidan into bed if he is a male, or Ashley into bed if the commander is a she (oh lord, how I wanted to see Missus Sheppard and Ash in the same bed ), you can obviously see where I'm going. Developers aren't exactly letting the homosexual crowds have full control over the experience a game like Mass Effect should give them. Not saying we are all playing Mass Effect to see Mr. Sheppard having a threesome with Ash and Liara, but hey, it's part of the romance aspect some love about the game. That could be applied to say, Jimmy who is openly gay, and would want to have Gordon Freeman focus all his attention on his love for Barney or ... that old guy they introduced in Episode 2 rather be a mute dood with a hot independent chick that would never SHUT THE HELL UP.

And another problem is how homosexuals are represented in games anyway, the flamboyant type like Bernie which I like a lot, although I wouldn't take a non-stereotype homosexual type character seriously because they would just be like us the hetoreosexual dood who have one fucking objective, save the fucking world from the fucking aliens who want to fucking fuck us the fucking humans. Right?

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Um...you know, I can't tell...is that a serious question?

Does this mean every minority must be represented now? Asians, Atheists, Unicyclists, Geese Jugglers, Pirates, Ninjas, Sentient AI etc? Oh wait

So, you're ok with ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't the majority?

Well, as long as they aren't being represented in a bad light, why would this be homophobia?
I just don't get it.

I didn't accuse you of being homophobic. To say you don't care about a group that doesn't include you isn't the same as saying you hate or fear them.

But again, I ask, are you ok with games ignoring the opinions and feelings of everyone who isn't part of the majority? Because that's what you're suggesting. You're absolutely right that it would be at best ungainly and at worst impossible to cater to literally every minority group out there, but does that mean the correct answer is to ignore them all? It's easier to go with the majority, so let's just do that, and if you don't happen to be part of the majority, then, gosh, I guess it just sucks to be you? Pretty unfair.

Not being cast in a good light is sometimes just as bad as being cast in a bad light. In other words, it doesn't really matter if you're not the villain if you also never get to be the hero.

Ok I guess.
But I think the way Lionhead pulled it off was just fine. (well except it wasn't because marriage in Fable means friggin nothin, but still)
I might be a homophobe for this, but I really can't see the reason behind making the gamer control a gay protagonist.

The player DOESN'T NEED TO be able to control a homosexual character, but he can choose to.

The problem is not whether we the heterosexual crowd are being favored by having heterosexual lead characters (I mean, Master Chief, Doom Guy, and The "Freeman" could be gay, it's never clearly specified whether or not MC would want to date Commander Keyes, Cortana or Johnson and we are not exactly being harassed about their sexual disposition during their/our adventures in the game right), however when you look at Mass Effect for example where Commander Sheppard can't get Aidan into bed if he is a male, or Ashley into bed if the commander is a she (oh lord, how I wanted to see Missus Sheppard and Ash in the same bed ), you can obviously see where I'm going. Developers aren't exactly letting the homosexual crowds have full control over the experience a game like Mass Effect should give them. Not saying we are all playing Mass Effect to see Mr. Sheppard having a threesome with Ash and Liara, but hey, it's part of the romance aspect some love about the game. That could be applied to say, Jimmy who is openly gay, and would want to have Gordon Freeman focus all his attention on his love for Barney or ... that old guy they introduced in Episode 2 rather be a mute dood with a hot independent chick that would never SHUT THE HELL UP.

And another problem is how homosexuals are represented in games anyway, the flamboyant type like Bernie which I like a lot, although I wouldn't take a non-stereotype homosexual type character seriously because they would just be like us the hetoreosexual dood who have one fucking objective, save the fucking world from the fucking aliens who want to fucking fuck us the fucking humans. Right?

I guess that makes sense.
Sorta.

 

[Harbinger_]

Make a game solely for homosexuals and you won't see me buying it. Make a game that has huge amounts of homosexuality in it and I won't buy it. That stuff may be for some people but it's not for me.

 

[squid5580]

They can't even work out a way to have hetrosexual sexuality in games without starting a huge controversy. Seems to me that the discrimination flows pretty equally. Especially when most characters aren't given enough personality to really define thier sexuality.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

the only way I can personally see this ever being sorted is to simply add character customisation to all games, and the option to romance both sexes if the game features romance. Perhaps during the character customisation section there is a sexuality toggle and the game switches the romance target as per your choice.

I wish they had that option in mass effect, I really wanted to romance Kaidan with a male Shepard and I'm straight.