222: Straight and Narrow

[occamsnailfile]

They can't even work out a way to have hetrosexual sexuality in games without starting a huge controversy. Seems to me that the discrimination flows pretty equally. Especially when most characters aren't given enough personality to really define thier sexuality.

WTF? Are you insane? Heterosexuals are not discriminated against in games. Most particularly heterosexual males. The characters who aren't shown as having an overt sexuality are assumed by pretty much everyone except people who pause to think for a second that they are straight.

Visibility is a problem for gay people in general, as they have to assert that they are gay in order for it to be apparent, generally, and then they get accused of "throwing it in people's faces," by, apparently, asserting their own existence. It doesn't have to be huge, as noted in some games the characters are very subtly indicated.

I wish that Nico in GTAIV had been able to actually date one of the male options on the dating websites. Just one. The straight boys got like five.

All this saying 'gay hurts sales' is like saying 'black hurts sales' when the possibility of making a lead character non-white is introduced. It's crap and we can do better than that as a society. I think the straight-white-males out there can be big enough that not everything has to be all about them, all the time, right?

 

[God_of_badgers]

What a dreadful vision of the future. "Diversity" trumping competence in the case of game developers; "diversity" trumping story in the case of game design.

If it helped make better games I'd be all for an eternal ban on gay protagonists. I play to have fun; not to be subjected to tirades about persecution and shoehorned "moral lessons".

Movies can be enjoyable whilst also containing 'moral lessons', why can't games? And that's not to say that all games have to contain startling social commentary, in the same way that movies like Zombieland are still being released and enjoyed.

District 9 is an excellent example of this with messages about Apartheid and Humanity's Inhumanity, but with aliens and kick ass rayguns

 

[wolfy098]

One hetro man
one gay man
one not to busty hetro woman

(and if the lesbians complain screw them because 3 characters are perfect)

 

[vxicepickxv]

I like the OPTION, simply because I will OPT out. If it's critical to a GREAT story, I probably wouldn't even be bothered by it, because well, it's not me. Of course, if done poorly in a bad story, well, it will get crap.

 

[Shihoudani]

I have to agree with the previous person pointing out that if it's unfair for homosexuals not to be displayed often in video games then you have to say it's unfair for every other alternative sexuality and they would then need their own fair shake at the plot. Which honestly I don't see any of that happening anytime soon and while I am Bisexual, this doesn't bother me at all because I'm here to play a good game. If the game is really awesome then I really don't care that Master Chief isn't gay if I want him to be, or Niko doesn't have some kind of relationship option with Brucie. ( Come on... I mean just watch Brucie and tell me something isn't....)

If the game is focused around a love / relationship plot then yes in fact I support the option of m/m f/f but if the plot of the game doesn't revolve around these things then I don't see why it needs to be thrust into every ones face. Kill the space aliens, dictators, terrorists, mutant rats... and enjoy the game!

 

[wordsmith]

Ok I guess.
But I think the way Lionhead pulled it off was just fine. (well except it wasn't because marriage in Fable means friggin nothin, but still)
I might be a homophobe for this, but I really can't see the reason behind making the gamer control a gay protagonist.

You know what? I think I'm with you on this. Rarely do I play a game and think on the sexuality of my character. The Strip clubs and Prostitutes of GTA are simply bars and pedestrians to me. The women in Fable (I've not played the second one yet) are no different to any of the other NPC's. Ok, I married the woman in Bowerstone (some official chick I seem to remember), she screwed me over for a load of cash, then divorced me. Unless there's a serious reason to (a la GTA3, the health bonus from the first time), sexuality in games is an element of the game that just passes me by.

I've got to admit, whilst I'm not bothered about gay people as people, gay people as sexual entities make me uncomfortable. Take Half Life for example, and the relationship between Gordon and Alyx. There is never anything graphic, just the odd look or an indication of attraction between them. That washes over me, I barely notice it. If it was Grigori looking at me like that, I'd honestly be creeped out.

I guess... You know, this is the bit where I was going to summarise it all, take it to a neat little two line finishing remark, but I've got nothing. Well, that's not true, I've got "I guess I'd just be uncomfortable playing as a gay character", but being as I'll no-doubt get flamed as a homophobe anyway, there's no point in lighting the match for them as well.

Oh, and as a point of language... "Homophobia" - Homo "same" + "phobia" irrational fear. I have an irrational fear of enclosed spaces, there is no reason to fear them but I do. Dislike is not the same as fear.

 

[Yukichin]

I wouldn't mind being able to play a homosexual protagonist, that's for sure. I've very rarely come across any gay characters in games. At the very least, I'd love to see a gay main character (even if they aren't the protagonist), though I wouldn't want that to be the entire focus of the game. It'd just have to be another character trait.

I've got to admit, whilst I'm not bothered about gay people as people, gay people as sexual entities make me uncomfortable. Take Half Life for example, and the relationship between Gordon and Alyx. There is never anything graphic, just the odd look or an indication of attraction between them. That washes over me, I barely notice it. If it was Grigori looking at me like that, I'd honestly be creeped out.

That's because Grigori is creepy in the first place! XP

Oh, and as a point of language... "Homophobia" - Homo "same" + "phobia" irrational fear. I have an irrational fear of enclosed spaces, there is no reason to fear them but I do. Dislike is not the same as fear.

It's not the same as fear, but the thing is, that's the place "homophobia" has taken in our society. Despite the fact that if you break it down it means a fear, that is NOT how it's used; it's used to describe anti-gay sentiment. Hell, gay used to mean happy, and retarded meant mentally handicapped, but we don't always use those words the old way, now do we?

 

[Susan Arendt]

Ok I guess.
But I think the way Lionhead pulled it off was just fine. (well except it wasn't because marriage in Fable means friggin nothin, but still)
I might be a homophobe for this, but I really can't see the reason behind making the gamer control a gay protagonist.

Well, let's try it this way - can you see a reason why NOT to make a protagonist gay? Besides things like whether a game would sell, I mean.

Although sometimes a game's story requires the protagonist to be something specific (you're probably not ever going to play as a woman in a WWII game, for example), most of the time there's no compelling reason it needs to be anything in particular. Could be a guy, a girl, black, white, straight, gay, whatever. Take Dead Rising as an example (simply because I happened to just look at the poster for it above my desk.) All the main character really has to be is someone that could legitimately be a photojournalist, so probably not a kid. Other than that, it's wide open. And yet, it's a white guy. Now, there's nothing wrong with the hero being a white guy in and of itself - after all, why shouldn't it? - the problem is that it's so often a white guy. Variety would be great and variety includes minorities -- including homosexuals.

 

[Cliff_m85]

Just to let you know (and I do this on a frequent occassion), those who like to call you 'gay' or a 'fag' on Xbox live don't like it when you respond with a "Well, your dad wasn't complaining about it last night". It tends to leave them speechless.

If you're secure enough with your sexuality, you can make jokes like that.


But the worst is the ignorant 'no homo' shit that some people have adopted.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Just to let you know (and I do this on a frequent occassion), those who like to call you 'gay' or a 'fag' on Xbox live don't like it when you respond with a "Well, your dad wasn't complaining about it last night". It tends to leave them speechless.

If you're secure enough with your sexuality, you can make jokes like that.


But the worst is the ignorant 'no homo' shit that some people have adopted.

I would love to hear someone say that on xbox live just so I can hear the dead silence that follows and I don't even think a comeback to that exists.

As for gays in games, let it be an option. I won't use it but some people will. Then again most of the games I play are of the RTS variety so there's not really a way for gays to be in one of those unless it designates your units by sexual preference.

 

[wordsmith]

I wouldn't mind being able to play a homosexual protagonist, that's for sure. I've very rarely come across any gay characters in games. At the very least, I'd love to see a gay main character (even if they aren't the protagonist), though I wouldn't want that to be the entire focus of the game. It'd just have to be another character trait.

I've got to admit, whilst I'm not bothered about gay people as people, gay people as sexual entities make me uncomfortable. Take Half Life for example, and the relationship between Gordon and Alyx. There is never anything graphic, just the odd look or an indication of attraction between them. That washes over me, I barely notice it. If it was Grigori looking at me like that, I'd honestly be creeped out.

That's because Grigori is creepy in the first place! XP

Ok, someone less creepy then... I don't know, Barney?

Oh, and as a point of language... "Homophobia" - Homo "same" + "phobia" irrational fear. I have an irrational fear of enclosed spaces, there is no reason to fear them but I do. Dislike is not the same as fear.

It's not the same as fear, but the thing is, that's the place "homophobia" has taken in our society. Despite the fact that if you break it down it means a fear, that is NOT how it's used; it's used to describe anti-gay sentiment. Hell, gay used to mean happy, and retarded meant mentally handicapped, but we don't always use those words the old way, now do we?

So if I call someone a Jew in a derogatory way, that's not racist? Just because something might be taken to mean one thing doesn't mean it loses it's original meaning.

 

[Charley]

The reason why it should be is that gay men and women play video games, and homosexuality is part of everyday life. I'm guessing your a straight male. Would you like to do nothing else but play as a gay character?

I have to say, I disagree with this approach. Basically, that's a demand for positive discrimination - which is still discrimination. I wouldn't say that just because gay people play games, there should be a requirement that there are gay characters in games - sure, if it it's in the character design then why not, but would you really want to see characters who are explicitly singled out as "look it's the gay-equal-inclusion" one?

It's slightly similar (don't take this analogy too far) to diversity policies in the workplace, and positive discrimination quotas - do you want the job because you're qualified, or would you rather know that you only got it because the company is below their gay:straight employee threshold?

Obviously there's nothing wrong with wanting to experience games that have characters in that you identify with, but is it so important that it has to be on a sexuality level? Are there not other characteristics in a hero character that people can draw comparison with before they get to their choice of partner?

Personally, I don't think the sexuality of videogame characters matters a great deal - being as they're games. I've never picked up a game thinking "great, time to get my heterosexual on and shoot some villains like only a straight man can" because that would be ridiculous, and yet that's the reductio ad absurdum opposite of demanding gay characters in games. I think forcing the issue would only serve to make things worse - the ideal situation would surely be where a main character turns to their love interest of choice/plot design, be they male or female, and nobody gives a hoot.

 

[minoes]

Wait a sec, why would you want gay characters?

Who knows, maybe gay people have special powers.

Zoey, Bill, Louis and Francis.

Which one(s) is gay, how do you know and why would it matter?

Whether they are gay or not, simply does not matter because they are just avatars. Their backstories are irrelevant to the game mechanics.

They can't even work out a way to have hetrosexual sexuality in games without starting a huge controversy. Seems to me that the discrimination flows pretty equally. Especially when most characters aren't given enough personality to really define thier sexuality.

Yes, lets just take a look at how they portrait female characters in most games, I don´t think they can even get males right.

 

[Biek]

All that being said I can't help looking forward to having your sandard dark, ruggedly handsome protagonist agree with his obligatory female sidekick when she comment on the butt of men in uniforms.

/Jakob

haha, that reminded me of this part in metal gear solid, where you had to find a woman disguised as a masked soldier by looking at their butts to see if their hips wiggled.

 

[cobra_ky]

Final Thought for the day:

Zoey, Bill, Louis and Francis.

Which one(s) is gay, how do you know and why would it matter?

Francis definitely. no doubt in my mind. In the context of L4D, it doesn't matter at all.

 

[Pyre00]

The Escapist must be getting lazy. I saw a story a couple weeks ago about somehting like this, and I swear they just took the same article and replaced the words "Black" with "Gay"

I don't know if being a bisexual male gives me any special impartiality here, but why does everyone care who they're playing?

If you have the choice to, go on and play as a carbon copy of you. If not, learn to deal with it like the rest of us have. Racism and homophobia will only die once no one gives a damn.

 

[awmperry]

I suspect they'll have trouble selling a game where the protagonist is openly gay, certainly if no option is given to play a straight character instead. That, I suspect, may be the main issue; the gaming industry is ultimately a business, and a game which forces its players to control a gay character (at least if their inclination has an effect on the game that's difficult to skim over) is unlikely to ever have anything more than niche appeal.

All that makes it a fairly simple economical calculation; it costs a lot to develop a game, and forcing the straight majority to play a gay character will make a huge dent in market demand. With societal views as they are now, it just won't be profitable to have an enforced gay protagonist.

That said, it always struck me in Mass Effect that the "Male!Shepard-walking-up-to-Kaidan" animation on board the Normandy could have quite easily fitted into a male-male romance thread. I'd have avoided it - partly because I'm straight and have no interest in playing a gay character, but mainly because I found Kaidan immensely annoying - but it could have been easily included.

It would be interesting to see some studies done - both in the highly religious areas like the US and in places like Europe where there is a... shall we say, more enlightened approach to homosexuality - to see just how much effect a gay protagonist would have on people's interest. A character identified as gay in a game where it had little or no effect on the gameplay? It wouldn't bother me. If it was just there as a gimmick, though, or if the game revolved around it... I'd have trouble with that, purely because I wouldn't derive any enjoyment from it.

 

[squid5580]

They can't even work out a way to have hetrosexual sexuality in games without starting a huge controversy. Seems to me that the discrimination flows pretty equally. Especially when most characters aren't given enough personality to really define thier sexuality.

WTF? Are you insane? Heterosexuals are not discriminated against in games. Most particularly heterosexual males. The characters who aren't shown as having an overt sexuality are assumed by pretty much everyone except people who pause to think for a second that they are straight.

Visibility is a problem for gay people in general, as they have to assert that they are gay in order for it to be apparent, generally, and then they get accused of "throwing it in people's faces," by, apparently, asserting their own existence. It doesn't have to be huge, as noted in some games the characters are very subtly indicated.

I wish that Nico in GTAIV had been able to actually date one of the male options on the dating websites. Just one. The straight boys got like five.

All this saying 'gay hurts sales' is like saying 'black hurts sales' when the possibility of making a lead character non-white is introduced. It's crap and we can do better than that as a society. I think the straight-white-males out there can be big enough that not everything has to be all about them, all the time, right?

I didn't say hetrosexuals. I said hetrosexual sexuality. Did you forget the Mass Effect controversy? They completely glossed over the fact that you could have a semi lesbian relationship (the blue alien who has both organs or something but she looks like a girl) but focused on the fact that OMG THEY HAD S E X. So if that is the reaction of a hetrosexual relationship that was done in very good taste what chance is there of having a homosexual scene? Would you be happy with a character who announces "I'm gay" at the beginning of the game and that is it? How about some shoehorned in romance that means nothing because game writers can't write? Maybe you would be happier with a God of War style comic minigame that is just there for silliness?

Not only that what about you the player? Do you need them to tell you every little detail about your character? I remember back when I first started playing games we had to use this thing called imagination. White squares floating on the screen we imagined were grenades. A green rectangle was GI freakin Joe man. SO why do they have to tell you that your character is gay or straight? Is Mario straight because he is always rescuing the princess? Maybe Luigi is his life partner but Mario is in the princess rescuing business. Who is to say one dark night in the foxhole Marcus and Carmine didn't get a little closer than needed to "keep warm" and the only reason they went after his wife was for repopulation. Unless the character comes out with the stereotypical clothes and lisp no one really knows what most characters are. Everyone just assumes they are.

 

[LadyZephyr]

My god, folks, seriously.

You want proof that having a not-heterosexual male as your main character works fine? Allow me to point you to Big Boss from MGS3. Who Kojima confirmed in the Japanese commentary of the game had a thing with Ocelot, who was gay.

Knowing that, do you love the character any less? Does it make him any less of a badass? He got the girl, but he also got the guy. Oh, and EVA had a crush on the Boss, much to the glee of myself and all the other girls who adored the Boss. The next game in the series will introduce her female lover.

MGS is one of the most popular, albeit polarizing, series in gaming. There is a ton of gay in those games. A fucking lot of it. Does that make you like the games less? Would you have even noticed if you weren't told so?

See, including homosexuality and bisexuality in games doesn't have to be ham-fisted. It can be subtle or purely incidental, and never a defining characteristic. Queers like me might instantly pick up on the hints and get that much more enjoyment from the games. Straights can continue to naively believe Raikov and Volgin weren't doing the nasty. Everyone wins.