223: Obsolescence Pending: Rating the ESRB

Muon

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Sep 11, 2008
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Re: Rating online content
Why not just characterize player interaction? Like:
"This game is rated M for the following reasons..."
and then
"Online: This game is rated M due to how players of this game interact in the following ways: Text, voice, user-generated content, comic violence and mischief. Moderation capability allows the user to prevent all or some of these intereactions."
 

Nutcase

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Tenmar said:
Nutcase said:
And how is the ESRB supposed to confront the problem of pre-emptively reviewing non-static content, if not by declining to review it? Perhaps they ought to use a time machine? The article offers no solutions.
And this is why I hate articles like this. It is complaining about the status quo and the problems which is good to make people think about the problems. However without the lack of potential solutions the article has a greater chance of building unrest and forcing people to find other and potentially worse solutions than what the ESRB provides

Right now history is repeating itself and the only other option being offered to handle video game ratings is forcing video games to be aligned with movies. This is a bad idea because ratings will affect what the mass consumer(those who aren't familiar with the hobby) which is currently the main force that drives the video game industry to be so gigantic. Parents will then decide that games might be rated out of their child's age and the parent might not buy the game.

EDIT: No rating system can control online interactions. The game and the content can be rated but the social interaction cannot be rated because the interaction isn't part of the game it is real life.
Yep, but now that I think about it, the article only says the market is expanding into a direction ESRB does not want to go. That in itself is not a problem of any kind, though the tone of the article hints that it is. IMO, the consequences aren't a problem either. If useful ratings can be given on something, and there's sufficient demand for them, the market will come up with them. If ESRB disappeared today, something would take its place.

Sometimes the demand just isn't there. Books and comics, for instance, have no rating board and I don't see either hurting for one.

Online interaction is not completely impossible to rate. There are plenty of games - WoW comes to mind - that have developer-set standards for in-game behavior and conflict resolution, and maintain them through both automated systems and manual moderation. You could statically rate the game based on what these standards are. Naturally this does not guarantee results in a non-static context, but then you could have an auditing organisation (let's call this "MMORB") which would continually test and verify that the standard is being adequately enforced in-game by whatever means.
 

theultimateend

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AvsJoe said:
The ESRB has done a great job in the past but unfortunately due to the ever-changing world of gaming it too needs to change. I wish I knew how to help, but I have no solutions to offer these guys. Great article.
I'm going to have to disagree.

Just because After 2+ years of doing nothing (basically) but reading psychology texts and case studies I've found...as have apparently hundreds of separate groups of psychologists and other researchers...that there is no connection between video games and violence.

Even on a larger scale, video games have been getting more and more violent overall every year, yet violent crime amongst teens has dropped in the US every year since at least as far back as the Atari.

What else are we trying to stop? Knowledge of sex? When I was in elementary school I had the hard details down before 5th grade, where did I learn? Most of my friends who learned from their older siblings or various sources. This was before the internet was even a viable tool for folks in my area (income issues). Who is old enough to forget just how young they were when they discovered sex?

Drugs? I don't really understand the drama of drugs in video games. Frankly as I was young there were adds for cigarettes all over the place, my friends were doing pot, all my father had to do was explain the situation clearly to me. Even at a young age it wasn't rocket science. If someone is going to do drugs they'll end up doing them regardless of censorship or laws, all you do with these two tools is delay the inevitable.

Likewise it is a terrible tool for parenting. Because the ESRB is not a rock solid tool, it is not objective, because of this it provides parents with another organizations opinion on what is acceptable for their kids.

The most immediate example is Hot Coffee for Grand Theft Auto, now I realize...theoretically kids shouldn't be playing this anyways. While I disagree I understand that is the expectation. However what was it that was wrong? Slaughtering Civilians? Nope. Murdering Hookers after a quick bang in the back of your car? Nope. Aiding Criminals for hours on end? Nada. That was all kosher. It was consensual sexual relations with your own girlfriend. That was what was the abomination.

What kind of fucked up logic is that? I can run around cutting heads off with a katana but heaven forbid I see two fully clothed sprites making out?

I realize this is a bit of a rant and it doesn't even necessarily relate to the actual discussion of the target article. But for as long as I've been alive the ESRB has been entirely irrelevant to good parenting.

If you don't have the time to be the 'esrb' in your child's life, or theoretically in your future child's life, you might not be in a life situation where having kids is a good idea.

Both my parents were incredibly busy with work, as were most of my friend's parents, however they all still knew for the most part what we were doing (and likely more than we thought they did). We ended up playing everything that piqued our interest from Goldeneye to GTA III and everything in between. The ESRB was entirely irrelevant where I lived because it serves no purpose. (To reiterate we didn't merely play violent video games either, just that they were no more special than any tennis game we picked up)

Like using the disney channel as a nanny, it is a terrible idea that does little more than throw an arbitrary rating onto a game. Lord Critter Crunch has "Tobacco Use" under its rating. I've been playing it for 10 hours or so and haven't seen so much as a Tobacco Plant. It really feels like this is just the early version of the Terrorist Alert Color Code, people get told something that ends up being entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Violence is not merely violence, drugs are not merely drugs, it all is part of a context that cannot be experienced by a single clutch of letters and a few lines of detail.
 

SamuraiAndPig

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I think it's because there is still the notion that a video game is a children's toy, and we have to protect our little snowflakes from the big scary world out there. And hell, I see more violence on the ten o'clock news than in most of the games I own. And that isn't fake violence - it's real violence done by real people in real life.

I don't see anything inhernetly wrong or evil with rating games, it's just, as many have said, ineffectual. And rating online content is simply impossible because there are no real filters. Nothing is stopping you from calling someone a fuckhead on Live, even if you're playing a game with no rating for language. And you can't just put a warning out that says people who play online are dicks, because not all of them are. It's like trying to rate the Internet all at once - it can't be done.

But the debate is going to continue until games get a little more sophisticated and don't use violence as the main medium by which they operate.
 

Sara Grimes

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Aug 20, 2007
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I ran out of time to read through the last batch of comments - but want to thank you all again for making this such a heated and informed debate. I also wanted to point those of you who offered up some 'solutions' during our initial exchange to a blog post i wrote about the article and reactions: http://gamineexpedition.blogspot.com/2009/10/new-article-in-escapist.html - in particular because i've quoted several of the posts that I thought might be of use for future work in this area.
cheers!
 

Overseer76

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Sep 10, 2009
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I just reread my previous post and in case anyone wonders why I mentioned the MPAA, go see "This Film Is Not Yet Rated" or just keep reading.

Gunner 51 is correct. The ESRB has no real power, but neither does the MPAA... unless you count the fact that they can put any rating they want on a movie and do not have to explain anything. Let's say the makers of Movie X want a PG-13 rating, because if they get an R, fewer people will be able to see their movie in theaters (their main revenue stream). But if the MPAA decides that the mind-blowing, action-packed ending is a little TOO mind-blowing and action-packed, they will give it an R unless the filmmakers hollow out their pride and joy in favor of a more tame experience that won't upset the sensibilities of the kiddies. Voila. De facto censorship.

I'm not suggesting this type of thing is rampant in the MPAA, nor even present in the ESRB, but it's something to be aware of.
 

Beery

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Stinking Kevin said:
The only time a game has ever been pulled off of a store shelf due to its rating was when GTA:SA was re-rated "AO." The ESRB played a major role in that, to be sure, but it's completely backward to blame the board of censorship.
Erm... in order to be a de-facto censor, the censorship can be very subtle. Heck, that's how censorship works best (for the censor). Pulling a game off a shelf is not subtle and it PROVES beyond a doubt that the ESRB is a censor.
 

2012 Wont Happen

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Why is it fair to rate a game based on user generated content? It theoretically would be possible to modify a care bears game so that all the characters were replaced by naked people, but that shouldn't be a consideration while rating the game.

That's a bit of an extreme example, but take, for example, Morrowind. It was rated T, and does deserve that rating the way it was released. However, there are a plethora of mods that make in-game characters nude, or add graphically gory depictions of violence. The game itself is fine though, why should it be judged by what some random person with an image editor creates and uploads to tesnexus?

You can find a lot of bad things on the internet. Compared to the other things you can find, nude mods and other inappropriate for children mods for games are relatively mild. Why should games ratings be based on content that can be made by players and found on the internet, when almost anything can be found on the internet? I think it makes more sense just to stick to rating the game itself.
 

robert01

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I disagree. The job of the ESRB is to rate the content contained in the game itself. Interactions online is not their job, a bunch of people swearing on voice chat, or in a chat box is outside the scope of what they are intended to do. That is outside of their control. Most game devs will put a language filter on their text based communication, but beyond perfecting software that can listen, process, and censor obscene language on the fly without hindering gameplay, it is the best they can do.

If the ESRB were to rate games based on their online content I would say that every game that has any form of conversational online communication would be rated 'M'. Some onus has to fall on the parent to monitor and attempt to tell their child that calling someone/thing anything a '******', or isn't the correct way to communicate with someone.
 

geizr

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How do you even begin to rate online games for what goes on in chat? Play any online game, and you are guaranteed to run into some of the most unapologetically rude, crude, crass, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-sematic, pornographic, and base human beings imaginable in the chat and forums. Even the most simple children's game will be forced to have an AO rating if it has any online chat capability that allows free-expression.

The problem is that it's really difficult to control that sort of thing without either the game developer instituting some sort of extreme censorship, which will only prove exhausting, costly, and destructive to the profitability of the game, or the community for that game has to take it upon itself to excommunicate any who devolves to such unacceptable levels of interaction.

The reason for this dilemma, in my opinion, is that the Internet has developed with this mistaken notion that anonymity and remoteness means that you can just throw away the normal rules of etiquette and graceful social interaction. As a result, it has become the norm on the Internet to be a complete, unrepentant asshole to anyone and everyone(just look at how so easily everyone calls each other an "idiot" to the point the word no longer has any real meaning). If people actually tried to be nice and empathetic to each other, for a change, instead of being bitter, mean, sarcastic, or cynical, I think much of the problem would be rendered moot.
 

oktalist

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VanityGirl said:
I just don't understand why ESBR don't say you kid needs to be above a certain age to play online. Think about social networking sites, or think about the Escapist. Don't you have to be atleast 13 years old to get an account on here? I think you do.
That's correct; in the US, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act 1998 effectively requires any online service to ban under-13s from interacting with other people through the service (they must provide verified parental consent before they can handle personal information, which is quite difficult to do over the internet).

So all online interactions are effectively rated PG13 already.
 

Grey Day for Elcia

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oktalist said:
VanityGirl said:
I just don't understand why ESBR don't say you kid needs to be above a certain age to play online. Think about social networking sites, or think about the Escapist. Don't you have to be atleast 13 years old to get an account on here? I think you do.
That's correct; in the US, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act 1998 effectively requires any online service to ban under-13s from interacting with other people through the service (they must provide verified parental consent before they can handle personal information, which is quite difficult to do over the internet).

So all online interactions are effectively rated PG13 already.
Which, even more so than other ratings, is as easy to bypass as a click. No I.D. and no proof required. Just say you were born eighteen years ago and the entire Privacy Act is rendered useless--well, more useless.