Fallout: New Vegas Dev: Recent RPG Advances "Undermine" the Genre

[The Wooster]

Fallout: New Vegas Dev: Recent RPG Advances "Undermine" the Genre

Do you think RPGs are too easy these days? Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment and Fallout: New Vegas developer Chris Avellone agrees.

He didn't mention the dreaded C-word [http://pastebin.com/MmsPjBUd] during the interview with IndustryGamers, but Avellone made it quite clear that he thinks that design decisions made with player convenience in mind can often end up doing more harm than good.

In his words:

"I'll say the 'advances' have been more for player convenience, sometimes good, sometimes bad, in my opinion. Journals, quest compasses that point directly to the goal and show you the route, auto-maps, etc. are helpful; at the same time, I think it undermines the thrill of victory and discovery and a lot of what makes an RPG an RPG (exploration, notably).

His comments echo a popular [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU] sentiment [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM] amongst core-gamers. That in an attempt to appeal to a wider audience, games are abandoning any semblance of challenge and, quite frequently, treating players like brain-dead automatons.

Avellone is far more positive about other advances in the genre, however: "In terms of non-interface elements, I feel the idea of morally grey choices and more focus on actions and consequences has been great for RPGs across the board," he said.

Avellone was part of the team that made Planescape: Torment which, aside from being a strong contender for the best RPG ever made, was unique at the time in that it avoided the rather tired dichotomy of good-versus-evil, and instead offered more ethically challenging decisions.

"Lastly, fully voice-acted characters has been something to adapt to since Knights of the Old Republic 1, and the amount of localization, recording and audio work required is substantial, but I feel it's a net positive for the player," he continued.

He also had kind words for developers that mix-and-match their genres: "Developers are seeing the worth in customization, levelling, dialogue, choice and reactivity and other elements that would normally be considered RPG mechanics and introducing them into multiple titles."

Source: IndustryGamers [http://www.industrygamers.com/news/chris-avellone-obsidians-chief-rpg-designer/]


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[ChupathingyX]

I can't argue with MCA himself!

Elijah in the Dead Money DLC actually references hand holding in modern RPGs.

 

[Terminate421]

If I played Skyrim and was told to get to a dungeon out in the middle of now where, without a map, I'd get SOOOO lost.

 

[seraphy]

I kinda disagree with Avellone on voice-acting, I have always felt that it makes games more linear and short. After all it is much more costly to hire voice actor than write more lines.

But well I could be wrong of course.

I agree on every other point he makes however, not that it might change anything ever.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I don't mind casual games.

I play quite a few. They're fun. I don't need to think.

But sometimes I really like something that stretches my ability to think further than "Use Gun On Man".

If that's no longer "in vogue", then less and less money is being spent on creating these things - and more and more people who don't like those things are being brought in - while less and less people who like them are staying.

Hell, who would have thought a game about stacking cubes would be fun? (Minecraft) Or a "rescue the princess" platform game? (SMB) or a pet turn based strategy? (Pokemon)

There needs to be all sorts of games around, and with "Casuals" and "FPS" drawing millions upon billions out of the coffers, where's the money to create the new ideas?

 

[Skandis]

The whole issue with "journals, quest compasses that point directly to the goal and show you the route, auto-maps, etc" is literally non-existant. If I pay attention I don't need to use the journal or even auto map for that matter. If I don't pay attention I don't have to replay a segment of the game just to get a clue.

What seems more likely is that developers who can't program a game to be played in more than one way opts for the way that leaves most people satisfied. Even so we still have games with subtlety like La noire and Mass Effect. Given, it's not the same outlandish subtlety that Planescape showed; but the former two are also games that I've finished.

 

[Vrach]

I agree to a point. I think it's all down to the bottom line though, so going back isn't an option as the current model is definitely and more profitable. What we could expect/hope for however, is some options in the matter.

Fallout: New Vegas' Hardcore mode is an excellent example of this, but it's just a tad too superficial (although if we look at it as a start, it's a fantastic one at that). It'd be nice to have stuff like the ability to turn off fast travel, quest markers and such. Of course, this also puts a little more pressure on developers - just throwing out fast travel is silly. If there is a sufficiently fast method of movement and "taxi" points where necessary however, it becomes an enjoyable choice as opposed to shooting yourself in the foot (or the balls, depending on the size of the game). Taking Skyrim as example, the carriages could fulfill the second requirement, while removing the sprint exhaustion from horses would've pretty much solved the first.

On quest markers, it'd mean making quests where the quest giver actually gives you directions. If you need to see how this is done, just go play Morrowind for a few hours, it shows exactly how good instructions can replace a pinpoint quest marker system. On one hand, one might argue this puts more money into the voice acting department, but honestly, it does more than just introduce a more hardcore option. It really trashed my immersion a few times, getting a quest from a quest giver who would give me 0 information on where to find what I'm looking for (and I have no methods of deducing the location myself) and I'd just have a map marker telling me pinpoint where I can find it. If it's really that much stress and not enough reward though (which I'd strongly argue against, but still), I'd be content with just getting instructions in text form.

 

[Kargathia]

If I played Skyrim and was told to get to a dungeon out in the middle of now where, without a map, I'd get SOOOO lost.

You'd probably head over to the wiki, and pull out their map. So yea, might as well make it ingame.

But if I'm reading this right, then the problem isn't all the branching out and morphing the RPG is doing nowadays - the problem is that they're missing an RPG that smacks you if you so much as ask for directions. Sounds fair I guess. Might in some cases be as easy as a mod. Script detailed quest text for Skyrim, take out all markers, including the map markers for places you've only heard of, and you're set to go.

EDIT: Vrach pointed out something I didn't think of: you'd also have to add a substantial amount of voice acting.
I foresee a lot of "here, I wrote it down for you" in somebody's possible future.

 

[The Wooster]

Avellone was part of the team that made Planescape: Torment which, aside from being a strong contender for the best RPG ever made, was unique at the time in that it avoided the rather tired dichotomy of good-versus-evil, and instead offered more ethically challenging decisions.

I think you meant to type: "Avellone wrote practically every line of text in Planescape: Torment, and is therefore arguably the best writer in the entire gaming industry, and cannot be proven wrong, ever."

You're right, I think I did. The first woman you meet having left the mortuary has a backstory more compelling than the central plot of most games before and since. Guy is a genius.

 

[The Wooster]

If I played Skyrim and was told to get to a dungeon out in the middle of now where, without a map, I'd get SOOOO lost.

You'd probably head over to the wiki, and pull out their map. So yea, might as well make it ingame.

But if I'm reading this right, then the problem isn't all the branching out and morphing the RPG is doing nowadays - the problem is that they're missing an RPG that smacks you if you so much as ask for directions. Sounds fair I guess. Might in some cases be as easy as a mod. Script detailed quest text for Skyrim, take out all markers, including the map markers for places you've only heard of, and you're set to go.

Morrowind simply pointed you in a direction and said "it's somewhere thataway." I'm not sure I agree with that design, but I would like it kept as an option.

 

[Shockolate]

Fallout: New Vegas sure as hell was easy. thanks to the new repair mechanic.

You know how many caps I had in New Vegas going into Old World Blues? 100000+.

You gave me a way to make the game a cake walk.

 

[Skizle]

I kinda miss the day where you had to level with the environment. It made the games challenging and it prevented you from beating the main story in a few hours, however I can also say I don't miss those days in the way of having to constantly quest in order to complete the next chapter of the main story or accidentally walking into a cave that was meant for someone of a higher level (also don't forget that back in the day there wasn't such a thing as an auto save so this made it extra frustrating) I would be nice if developers would put this in as an option before the game starts to add a little fun or challenge, which ever you would like to call it.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Morrowind simply pointed you in a direction and said "it's somewhere thataway." I'm not sure I agree with that design, but I would like it kept as an option.

I really wish there was some sort of middle ground between that. I don't want to be stumbling around searching every corner for hours on end, but I don't want an arrow on the compass leading me by the nose as well.

 

[seraphy]

I'd disagree. Both KOTOR games were fully voice acted, and they were both fairly long RPGs with heaps of non-linearity, multiple choices, etc. Or look at Skyrim. Huge open world, dozens of towns, cities and villages, the possibility to influence the way an entire civil war turns out, all of it voice acted. I know that Skyrim probably had a bigger budget than most games, but still. The fact that such a huge, detailed game also managed to contain so much spoken dialogue shows that developers of smaller games really don't have an excuse, unless money is really tight.

My point kinda was that these games could have been even more complex if money would not have been wasted to voice acting everything.

Then again if not having everything voice acted makes some people skip buying the game, then I understand why developers do that. I don't personally however exactly like it nor do I see it as necessary.

 

[Blackpapa]

I sorta understand the quest compass and auto-map bit, but what's wrong with journals?
Some games are so massive you need to have maps already available to be able to find your way, but a compass is kinda hand holding (but yes I do like marking off quest routs)

I guess he meant the current form of journals. By no means are journals a bad idea - in fact for any medium to big RPG they're pretty much indispensable. Without in-game journals players would have to keep physical journals - as in paper.

Today's RPG journal however pretty much lays out the quest structure along with it's stages as a checklist - it's a TODO questing list not a journal.

I'd disagree. Both KOTOR games were fully voice acted, and they were both fairly long RPGs with heaps of non-linearity, multiple choices, etc. Or look at Skyrim. Huge open world, dozens of towns, cities and villages, the possibility to influence the way an entire civil war turns out, all of it voice acted. I know that Skyrim probably had a bigger budget than most games, but still. The fact that such a huge, detailed game also managed to contain so much spoken dialogue shows that developers of smaller games really don't have an excuse, unless money is really tight.

Yeah, Skyrim is fully voiced. It's either quality or quantity and Bethesda went for quantity. The voice acting was as mundane and boring as the writing.

I was debugging a quest in Skyrim and had to open up the internals to see what's going on. Every speech fragment/response given by an NPC is a speech node and those have their internal names given by the developers. Players don't get to see them. I found them to be much more clever, funny and interesting than the actual dialogue the player gets to see.

But as for voice acting - while it's possible to voice act every single character you will have limited voice actors and a limited amount of accents those voice actors can do. With them having to read volumes of generic text the acting will be bland.

In short nothing like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnSXhVrrbs&feature=related

 

[Emergent System]

I kinda disagree with Avellone on voice-acting, I have always felt that it makes games more linear and short. After all it is much more costly to hire voice actor than write more lines.

I agree. I saw the Geneforge series by Spiderweb Software on Steam a few weeks ago and decided to pick it up. While the first 3 installments didn't agree very well with my computer, I was sbsolutely floored by the sheer amount of story-based content that basically one man can produce. I spent 35 hours on just one of the games, completing just one of the 5+ different endings (which vary enormously compared to alternative endings in AAA titles, and impact the story way more than any so-called "choices" I've seen in any of those games in almost a decade), without even exploring large parts of the map.

It was so delightful to be talking to an NPC and have 3-5, or even 7+ different dialogue options, that didn't all just lead to the exact same outcome.

I could go on, but this is getting way off topic. Suffice to say, I think voice acting is a horrible thing for story-based games (unless you're doing a linear game with no player interaction with the story), due to all the limitations that come with voice acting.

 

[universeman]

Solution to hand-holding in video games: play Dark Souls.