Idling is neither cheating nor disallowed. Using external programs to fake stats IS disallowed, and is what was punished.
243: The Thin Red Line
- Thread starter Murray Chu
- Start date
Here's a counter-example: Capcom vs SNK 2.
Early on in the game's lifespan, an enormous "roll cancel" bug was discovered allowing characters to turn their special moves invulnerable. Players whined and called for a ban.
A couple years later, everybody was doing it, and the game actually ended up just as interesting as it was without roll cancels. It didn't even change the balance that much, because everybody could do it.
Early on in the game's lifespan, an enormous "roll cancel" bug was discovered allowing characters to turn their special moves invulnerable. Players whined and called for a ban.
A couple years later, everybody was doing it, and the game actually ended up just as interesting as it was without roll cancels. It didn't even change the balance that much, because everybody could do it.
On one hand, i'm inclined to agree with you. On the other, isn't hiding in contrived places the best way to survive a zombie apocalypse anyway and thus completely in character.warrenEBB said:
I know one game that was practically designed to be played with cheats, can't remember the name.
Only a few iems were reachable by jumping, the rest required more and more advanced degrees of jumping on proximity mines(deus ex style) or direct wallrunning, doors were especially thin pieces of wall that were easier to crouch glitch through and if somebody had the skill to get past the regular ones, he deserved the ability to be Davy Jones on his ship. Enemy got aimbot? Code a more efficient one that requires less cpu cycles before it fires. Enemy got wallhack? Make one that also gives you firing solutions for your arcing grenades and lob a couple over that wall while he's confused as to why you are messing around in your invertory instead of running headlong into his ambush. Enemy under the map? Glitch a few attack drones into a wall and laugh as he can't escape them due to a lack of things to jump on.
That sounds a lot like wave dashing in Smash Brothers Melee, which can lead to beautiful and exciting fights at high level competition, but introduces an incredibly steep learning curve that alienates a vast majority of players.Robyrt said:
In Team Fortress 2, I personally think those who play with the original weapons are generally better than those who use the new ones, because they're skilled enough with them to use them without being at a disadvantage. Being mainstream in-game is, in my opinion, a failure.
Take the Demoman for example, and his new play styles after the War update. Anyone who plays TF2 knows that two of the unlockable weapons for the Demo are the Eyelander and the Chargin' Targe, a sword that allows for instant decapitations, and a small shield that enables the Demo to rush at the enemy, allowing them to deal a guaranteed critical hit at the high point of the charge. This gives the Demo a new role in the team; offense. Now I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, but Valve needs to take the noobs, lazy players and achievement farmers into account in future.
Since the release of the Soldier/Demo update, almost everyone instantly hit the grinding servers to grab the blade and the shield. Then they all rushed back into the regular servers, once they had the few achievements needed to unlock the two items, and started charging around the place decapitating the other team and getting into a 10-on-10 Demo-fest. Now, I played Demoman before the update, and played reasonably well. These days I've practically given up on the Scottish cyclops on account of being called a noob because I don't have the "cheap kill combo" as I put it. Instead, I stick to the old, tried-and-true sticky bomb launcher and scrumpy bottle, and they work far better than a sword and shield. The Demoman was originally designed for a defensive role. The weapons are also why I fought for the Soldier in the War; because I genuinely thought his new items were better than the Demo's.
While I'm on a roll, this one goes out to achievement grinders: uninstall the game. As soon as a new class update is released, the grinders will hit the achievement servers to, you guessed it, grind for achievements. This makes the server lists ridiculously populated with achievement servers, and little to no people play on a real server.
I have never used a grinder server, and I never will. I enjoy getting achievements. Sometimes I'll go out of my way just to get one that I find amusing at the time. The "Have a Plan" achievement for the Sniper made me laugh. A Sniper doesn't normally go round capturing the intelligence, so I did it for the lulz, completely ignoring the fact that Scouts can do the job three times as fast. And hey, I won the match for the team.
Back on topic: those people who grind for achievements, and subsequently new weapons, should have their items removed. An ironic punishment, but it works, although I have no idea how it would be enforced. Achievements should be for things that aren't planned ahead, such as using Jarate to extinguish a burning teammate, or notable accomplishments in the heat of battle, like taking out five enemies in a row without letting go of your trigger as a Heavy.
And with that, my rant of the day is complete, and I believe I've made my point(s). Enjoy. =D
I Eventually had to stop playing L4D for awhile due to exploiters. It always happened the same way, my team is up several thousand points and the other team can't possibly win. Instead of playing it out, or conceding, the opposing team would somehow managed to throw their Tank off the roof of mercy hospital. I never did figure out how they did it, but the end result was a tank that never died, could not be shot at and the helicopter never shows up.
Valid points for sure. I definitely agree that sticky demo is superior to eyelander demo, but eyelander can be a force to reckon with and is pretty fun to play as well.CounterAttack said:
In the article, I was referencing to only the Medic achievements and the Medic weapons at that time, which was the only time I grinded for achievements. At that time, the Blautsauger and Ubersaw were blantant upgrades of the base weapons. Since the nerfs and tweaks, I have since gone back to the classic weapons for medic, but I do use Kritzkreig now and then (it's healing taunt has saved me more than once).
The other alternative that isn't mentioned in the article is the class spam and achievement farmers in pub servers, which I feel is infinitely worse. I've seen people give ubers to a scout when a demo is more appropriate for the job just to try for an achievement. Random drops and other things have lessen this to a certain degree but I can tell you that I see a lot more sollies these days than I'd prefer. Back when only achievements unlocked new items, it was handy for admins to tell people to go to an achievement server if their attempts were ruining the "team" aspect of the game. Similarly, you would tell someone to go to a 24/7 Two Fort server if they keep begging for a map change.
I'm still on the fence for achievement servers and I'm sure Valve was as well. However, idle servers did tip the scale towards the unsavoury and that is when they took action. My rationale is that you can excuse achievement servers for being the lesser evil (rather than deal with class spam, etc) but there really is no excuse for idling servers. Just play the damn game
I do think that developers should clearly state there stance on the use of certain practice but I also know that all gamers are assholes. For many gamers if you specifically tell them to not do something they will go out of there way to do it. On top of that, many will simply ignore developers because the exploit was an advantage they aren't willing to give up. Having a dialogue will help to solve some problems but its only going to put a dent in the problem since many already know its wrong and are still doing it anyways in the first placer and aren't going to change until its impossible.
I understand your line of thinking. I just don't like sheeple in games; those who go with the flow of the uneducated masses to grinders or picking the same class as everyone else because apparently "it's better". No single class is better than any other, it's just that everyone has their advantages and disadvantages against each other class.Murray Chu said:Valid points for sure. I definitely agree that sticky demo is superior to eyelander demo, but eyelander can be a force to reckon with and is pretty fun to play as well.
In the article, I was referencing to only the Medic achievements and the Medic weapons at that time, which was the only time I grinded for achievements. At that time, the Blautsauger and Ubersaw were blantant upgrades of the base weapons. Since the nerfs and tweaks, I have since gone back to the classic weapons for medic, but I do use Kritzkreig now and then (it's healing taunt has saved me more than once).
The other alternative that isn't mentioned in the article is the class spam and achievement farmers in pub servers, which I feel is infinitely worse. I've seen people give ubers to a scout when a demo is more appropriate for the job just to try for an achievement. Random drops and other things have lessen this to a certain degree but I can tell you that I see a lot more sollies these days than I'd prefer. Back when only achievements unlocked new items, it was handy for admins to tell people to go to an achievement server if their attempts were ruining the "team" aspect of the game. Similarly, you would tell someone to go to a 24/7 Two Fort server if they keep begging for a map change.
I'm still on the fence for achievement servers and I'm sure Valve was as well. However, idle servers did tip the scale towards the unsavoury and that is when they took action. My rationale is that you can excuse achievement servers for being the lesser evil (rather than deal with class spam, etc) but there really is no excuse for idling servers. Just play the damn game
Some of the TF2 updates I am okay with. I mainly play Heavy, so the sandvich is a godsend for me. I use the shotgun once in a while, but it just isn't worth it if you have a much more powerful close range gun as your primary.
The War updates were rather disappointing. The eyelander is overpowered, and makes them even more deadly to heavies. It should make them more vulnerable, seeing as they are far closer to the heavies threat range.
The War updates were rather disappointing. The eyelander is overpowered, and makes them even more deadly to heavies. It should make them more vulnerable, seeing as they are far closer to the heavies threat range.
This is where the hints of punishment and rewards come in handy. It gives people a bigger incentive than just their feeble moralsTwilight_guy said:
By class spam I simply meant everyone playing Medic or Pyro after the update came out because everyone wanted to try for achievements and get their weapons. This was a huge problem for the first two updates and achievement servers really did help to reduce it to a certain extent.CounterAttack said:
This is one of the main problem, and a massive deterrance if you want to play online games. How much it pisses people off to hear devs say "working as intended".
The main reason i stopped playing wow is cause the classes were constantly being changed, this made them more or less homogenous... that and i realised it was noting but a grind fest.
The main reason i stopped playing wow is cause the classes were constantly being changed, this made them more or less homogenous... that and i realised it was noting but a grind fest.
95% of the time anything that even raises the question "Is this legitimate?" guarantees the answer "No." Human beings have a persistent habit of desperately trying to justify their behavior.
I cry foul on the concept of "The developers should tell us what's cheating." If it becomes de rigor to have all cheats pointed out then all cheats not pointed out are de facto legitimate. This is baaaaad. Ethical review is entirely lifted from the gamer and burdened to the developer such that even extremely obvious cheating guilelessly OK because it is not expected for the gamer to make his own moral reviews.
Achievements are one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Distinction has been lost between the physical accomplishment and the indicator of that accomplishment. There is also a terribly unhealthy sense of entitlement. Unlocks, achievements are now things that people need and deserve.
I cry foul on the concept of "The developers should tell us what's cheating." If it becomes de rigor to have all cheats pointed out then all cheats not pointed out are de facto legitimate. This is baaaaad. Ethical review is entirely lifted from the gamer and burdened to the developer such that even extremely obvious cheating guilelessly OK because it is not expected for the gamer to make his own moral reviews.
Achievements are one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Distinction has been lost between the physical accomplishment and the indicator of that accomplishment. There is also a terribly unhealthy sense of entitlement. Unlocks, achievements are now things that people need and deserve.
Most game mods are shoved so far up their asses, that they are beyond knowing what's wrong and what's right.
Achievement servers, to me, were a way of being on the same playing field as someone else. Not to put myself above, to put myself level.
Then valve fixed this by making 90% of their weapons crap anyway (syringe gun update, and the spies dead ringer/cloak and dagger were really the only ones that come to mind as being definitively better.)
Achievement servers, to me, were a way of being on the same playing field as someone else. Not to put myself above, to put myself level.
Then valve fixed this by making 90% of their weapons crap anyway (syringe gun update, and the spies dead ringer/cloak and dagger were really the only ones that come to mind as being definitively better.)
You complain too much.CounterAttack said:
And more importantly, you should let the other people who also paid for the game play their own way. You don't like it? Don't share servers with them.
There should be a Godwin's law of games and cheating:
"The longer a topic continues about cheating, the likeliness someone will bring up sirlin.net gets closer to 1"
And.... there, I did it!
The reason I bring up Sirlin is his works and wrings about Cheats and Exploits being prepared for during Game Design. At some point, game exploits and bugs will be found after the final release has shipped. What the developers and community does afterwards is what will decide the fate of the game. The Exploit of Rocket Jumping for example has traveled far from it's early days of Doom as a glitch, into what we accept now as a required FPS Skill. The Line itself comes from the gray area of playing.
Let's call map exploits into attention. The usual rule is that anything above ground is fair game. Any exploits below ground it is a possible ban. Any "Thru Walls" exploit is subject to discussion. The reasoning behind this is that in most games, a ground tile will always be defined as passable from below to top. If you hide in side the ground, then the game itself becomes who can use the exploit the quickest? The game usually dies there after. (Read: SOCOM 2 on PS2, and it's jungle level with the missing wall)
MvC2 is full of exploits, but the flustercluck of characters kinda made the issue fix itself. It's a so broken, it's fixed type game where each good character can find something to exploit.
In closing though, the Achievements and Idle servers where not "exploits" in my opinion, but they where cheating like beating a game in "god mode" is cheating. The people who cheated didn't gain any aside from side-grade weapons. The game itself was still intact. Value pulled off an amazing move with the cheater's lament event, where as even though who stayed "pure" where rewarded. It wasn't so much an exploit call, it was just a dick move...
Funny and wonderful all the same.
"The longer a topic continues about cheating, the likeliness someone will bring up sirlin.net gets closer to 1"
And.... there, I did it!
The reason I bring up Sirlin is his works and wrings about Cheats and Exploits being prepared for during Game Design. At some point, game exploits and bugs will be found after the final release has shipped. What the developers and community does afterwards is what will decide the fate of the game. The Exploit of Rocket Jumping for example has traveled far from it's early days of Doom as a glitch, into what we accept now as a required FPS Skill. The Line itself comes from the gray area of playing.
Let's call map exploits into attention. The usual rule is that anything above ground is fair game. Any exploits below ground it is a possible ban. Any "Thru Walls" exploit is subject to discussion. The reasoning behind this is that in most games, a ground tile will always be defined as passable from below to top. If you hide in side the ground, then the game itself becomes who can use the exploit the quickest? The game usually dies there after. (Read: SOCOM 2 on PS2, and it's jungle level with the missing wall)
MvC2 is full of exploits, but the flustercluck of characters kinda made the issue fix itself. It's a so broken, it's fixed type game where each good character can find something to exploit.
In closing though, the Achievements and Idle servers where not "exploits" in my opinion, but they where cheating like beating a game in "god mode" is cheating. The people who cheated didn't gain any aside from side-grade weapons. The game itself was still intact. Value pulled off an amazing move with the cheater's lament event, where as even though who stayed "pure" where rewarded. It wasn't so much an exploit call, it was just a dick move...
Funny and wonderful all the same.
The thing is, why should Valve allow them to keep items gained from an external program when simply playing the damn game would net you the same reward, but no punishment? The system isn't broken, people just place too much importance on hats, which are so unimportant to gameplay that it makes me shake my head when people ***** about it. The rest of the items are earned through achievements (with the exception of the Gunboats) which don't require as many to be unlocked, and except for the Medic's achievements, they're not even hard to earn in the first place. If the system is "broken" simply because some players are luckier than others, then you people need to re-evaluate what makes something "broken" in the first place. Also, they're freaking hats. Come on, now.Booze Zombie said: