243: The Thin Red Line

[KayinN]

I Wanna Be The Guy is an indie PC game about NES gaming thats proven to be surprisingly popular. There was an Escapist article about it (Games that Done me Wrong I believe?).

But yeah I think the important wording here is 'no longer'. Code is the file arbiter of a game. Just because a nerf happens, doesn't mean the former tactic was necessarily illegitimate. An example I can think up off the top of my head is the Spy's Dead Ringer in TF2. Once it was released, it was nerfed into a less useful state and then eventually rebuffed to a state near it's original power. Clearly it wasn't 'wrong' originally, but the designers weren't sure about their own item for awhile.

Another thing is that sometimes even legitimate tactics, while 'fine', would improve the game if they were weakened. This is really up to the developers to implement though. These tactics could even be so modest that the most people don't even consider it a problem.

Balance and fun is a tricky, tricky thing.

 

[theultimateend]

Dicks will be dicks.

The pathetic ones are the dicks who are ashamed of their dickiness and try to rationalize being dicks.

By that I mean "If you cheat and try to rationalize why it is cool, you are the worst kind of gamer."

If it weren't for exploits, fighting games wouldn't have combos (canceling special moves, and links where bugs in the programing).

Very true. There is no way that would have been an intuitive expansion on the genre.

 

[misfit119]

I Wanna Be The Guy is an indie PC game about NES gaming thats proven to be surprisingly popular.

You bastard.
...
... I love you. :-D

While I realize taht this article is more about the PC unlocks related to in gaming achievements I feel the urge, nay the obligation to say something. Whenever this topic comes up I have to say one thing and one thing alone.

Online achievements need to burn in hell. As an avid Xbox 360 achievement monger I really feel the urge to point out that these achievements are the worst idea since someone got the bright idea to put nerves in your teeth.

Why game developers feel the urge to impose upon their players like this is totally beyond me. Is your game so crappy you need to force us to go online? Are you really so enthralled with your creation that we need to put in achievements for using each weapon? No, just dammit no. The only thing that's even close to this in frustration are collection based achievements but I'll digress on this point.

As a gamer who does the whole "self-imposed challenge" thing anyways it's always interesting to see a developer put in achievements that force you to do certain things. Use characters you might not normally use, play the game on the hard difficulty or make use of / don't use a particular item. It's a lot of fun to find ways to play a game in a way you might not normally do so. Worst case scenario is that you don't enjoy it and don't get those achievements. No biggie.

But online achievements are just the worst thing ever. Forcing players online to play a particular way to get something is just a bad, freaking, idea. Why would you want to encourage players online to basically play like a jerk so that they can get their stupid 20 GS? You're only going to hurt your other players and damage the damned integrity of the online game itself since boosters will start infesting your game almost immediately.

Honestly if the game is supposed to be so good let it stand on its own merits! Unless the game is 100% online keep these damn things out of it.

/rant

 

[(LK)]

"Because Valve did not comment on achievement servers before, players assumed it was alright to continue the practice with the natural next step of idling. Only later did players learn of the developers' true intentions: In an update last year, Valve stripped players of any unlockable equipment they earned while idling and distributed wearable halos to players who hadn't been caught using idling software.

Well, I think you had the right idea when you wrote this but it gives the wrong message.

Valve didn't punish players who had stayed logged into a server with the actual game client running to idle. What they did is punish players who had used a third-party program that made it appear to Valve's playtime tracking that they were logged in and on a server. Some of my friends were the ones using the program.

TF2 wasn't actually running at all and yet it appeared they were playing, so they got credit for the playtime and received drops.

This obviously crossed a really obvious line into cheating/hacking since they were using external software to circumvent the game's programming entirely. Nobody doing this was under any delusion whatsoever that it wasn't blatant cheating. The policies on using external software in this manner had been really clear for years prior. In years past they may have had their accounts VAC banned and losing their drops would be the last thing they'd be mad about.

 

[Enai Siaion]

For a while I played at a serious level in CoD4 and while my clan maintained a strict policy on modding or exploiting bugs, it was a constant battle when coming into conflict with other clans who had no such inhibitions.

Exactly. If the game has a bug that gives you an advantage, you have to be an idiot not to make use of it. There is no reason why we can't hold developers accountable for bugs in the same way we can hold them accountable for badly designed games or games that crash on the loading screen.

If it is possible to put turrets under the map, then you have a game where one class can put turrets under the map and kill everyone. Would you buy this game if this was intentional? NO! Then why should you play it if this is accidental? The game is the same in both cases.

In Diablo 2, for a long time it was possible to dupe items and trade them to other people, but they would eventually vanish. The result: honest players traded their legit gear for dupes, which then disappeared. From the honest player's point of view, he did nothing wrong and suddenly his gear disappeared. Would you play a game where your items disappear randomly? NO! But when it is caused by someone else cheating, it is okay??

 

[Carlston]

I Eventually had to stop playing L4D for awhile due to exploiters. It always happened the same way, my team is up several thousand points and the other team can't possibly win. Instead of playing it out, or conceding, the opposing team would somehow managed to throw their Tank off the roof of mercy hospital. I never did figure out how they did it, but the end result was a tank that never died, could not be shot at and the helicopter never shows up.

Blasting the tank off Mercy? I have done it, you can shoot a propane tank and it will knock the tank back a good 10-20 yards if you hit it just right. That's just in the game... now if they did it without using it, i'd call foul. But since Valve never listens to us when we try and inform them of such events...

 

[RadicalDreamer90]

I found this opinion interesting in thought, but when paired with the group of MMO's I've undertaken in the past few years, it's hard taking the opinion seriously. On top of just exploiting glitch and bugs within games, games that aren't run well community wise generally succumb to a large hacker backing like Rumble Fighter a game I recently stopped playing for a similar reason. Now, making it clearer to players what is part of the game, and what is clearly an exploit is a good step, but it's so far from getting a real result its laughable. Tell a kid he'll be punished if he commits an act while your at home, and you never catch him. The second he figures out that he can commit that act because you won't know if he's done it or not gives him a rebellious sense and actually pushes him to continue to do it. With communities only with over millions of active players, there are alooot of kids that do the same thing.

Honestly, in an online setting, and this applies to Rumble Fighter, TF2, and any other game that has a similar problem with glitches. LISTEN TO THE GOD DAMN COMMUNITY!

Seriously this seems like such an obvious point, but I've sat through games online that have had an infinite amount of bugs and hacking issues, and they end up staying that way just because the developers stay oblivious to the faults. Part of the community may be the cause of the exploits, but trust and believe there is always a large chunk of the community of an online game, willing to point out as many flaws as it takes to fix again. People who genuinely enjoy the game, will want to play it fairly and enjoy for it what it is. Not have a bunch of people running around, breaking the rules for there own amusement. People like this are more than willing to help Developers find new means to discover faults quicker and solve out the problems in a timely fashion, but the amount of people who actually listen is tiny.

Developers can't do everything, and expecting them to catch everything in an online community is ludicrous. However, utilizing the community to help better the game, would do more for the game itself than anything the developers could do after the games launched. Online worlds are in term created by the players of the game, and the players in the end, will find more about the game than the creators.

 

[Tommy_Dizzle]

I think the line drawn between honourable exploits and dishonourable exploits is measured by the amount of people that use it.
I play alot of GTASA:MP, and there's a rather basic glitch with the sawnoff, where you shoot it once (2 shots fired), then quickly swap to another weapon and back. Refills the ammo, so you can keep doing it to avoid any reloads. Since everyone does it, not many people complain.

It also matters just how much of the level / play experience it cuts out. If you're exploiting part of a level to avoid playing that part of the level, there's an easier way to do that: Dont Play That Level.

Good article, bro. Look foward to any further ones.

 

[juyunseen]

I remember an exploit from Halo 1 on PC that got repeated in one of the Halo 3 DLC maps. If you backed a warthog against a particular rock (H1pc)or a specific wall (H3) and dismounted, you could get inside the geometry, with the ability to still shoot out. It pissed me off to no end...

 

[crazy_madness]

i always wonder at the existence of achievement-servers in teamfortress because you get no advantage from a "higher-rank" weapon, besides matching your equipment to your playstyle...
i myself ,with all his equipment unlocked, still use the Demomans basic loadout...
but because of my affinity to semi-automatic weapons i use the crusaders crossbow as medic...

No single class is better than any other, it's just that everyone has their advantages and disadvantages against each other class.

so as much as i approve all the things @CounterAttack said i did't see the "chargin' tactic" as threat, due to it's restricted movability and the minimal bodycount... and therefore don't consider it as a "noob-weapon"
(compare this with the (possible) playstyle(s) of heavy or pyro)

.... Achievements should be for things that aren't planned ahead, such as using Jarate to extinguish a burning teammate, or notable accomplishments in the heat of battle, like taking out five enemies in a row without letting go of your trigger as a Heavy...

As a gamer who does the whole "self-imposed challenge" thing anyways it's always interesting to see a developer put in achievements that force you to do certain things. Use characters you might not normally use, play the game on the hard difficulty or make use of / don't use a particular item. It's a lot of fun to find ways to play a game in a way you might not normally do so. Worst case scenario is that you don't enjoy it and don't get those achievements. No biggie.

totally agreeing!

thats why i had doubts about this concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6pPGhIrW9E&lc=s7zVUAcK7DR_CttOJ3EMXWL-BsvA9_G98UlpXcvX_vY
where you literally work on specific achievements in order to get "points"

that way ,i fear, the game loses it's purpose
or in better words the player loses sight of what he wants...
getting fun per doing stuff that is fun...
not doing stuff to get a thing which represents fun
- or a prove for you "skill" - which in the end again is only tool for receiving FUN

what in someway happens on tf2 achievement servers...

-so somehow this post is still related to the threads topic-

i'm also thinking the use of an "exploit" is appropriate if it is within the general game concept

because thats what i like teamfortress for...
it's space for creativity...
"sentry jumping engineers"
only have an advantage of harder to reach height - the basic functions of the sentry stay the same...
(wrangler cooltime; fix detection range... - means they are conquerable - it just needs a rethinking of my strategy)
and thus a welcome challenge =]

 

[crazy_madness]

@physicsnick
@KayinN

i recommend you to revisit the game and check if it really does the same thing as mw2

and i assure you it doesn't - especially with the new "random giveaways" made the items worthless as "prize for your work"...
they're only still there for a little bit of variety

so ultimately there is no grinding in tf2 =D

for those who need it there are bazillion hats...
to keep them busy... xD

"it's still as balanced as it was from the beginning"
by that i mean you can always counter any action an opponent executes be it by class-advantage with wits or knowing the functionality of the game...

i really enjoyed both of your texts by the way...=D

Certain bugs, glitches and exploits very much add to the character of games, often beneficially.

=]


yes i answer to 2year old comments
because their word still have relevance

 

[CaptainThom]

Wow i have been playing L4D2 for a long time and i had no idea that exploit existed

I think as long as both teams have the opportunity to use an exploit and it isn't a guaranteed win situation its fair game.