Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution
Shamus takes a peek into Kickstarter game funding.
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Shamus takes a peek into Kickstarter game funding.
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Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.
I know cynicism soon follows the tide of goodwill, but hopefully people won't overreact when a project fails. You're not buying a game, you're backing the development of it. Receiving the game (assuming you donated enough, which usually isn't that much) is a bonus. Despite the risk and the inevitable blowback in reaction to scams or failure, Kickstarter is great to me because it can reinvigorate niche genres.
I know cynicism soon follows the tide of goodwill, but hopefully people won't overreact when a project fails. You're not buying a game, you're backing the development of it. Receiving the game (assuming you donated enough, which usually isn't that much) is a bonus. Despite the risk and the inevitable blowback in reaction to scams or failure, Kickstarter is great to me because it can reinvigorate niche genres.
I have to say I agree. All the risk is being carried by the consumer and all the rewards are sitting with the developers. This level of imbalance between risk/reward is going to unwind at some point. The additional danger is that most of these kickstarters don't have a legal advice when they put there plan up. From a legal stand point they aren't written that well and can be read as committing themselves to providing things like drm free copies of the game via steam without realising it. This is a mistake that even huge companies make, i.e Apple advertising 4g on the new Ipad when 4g it is only available in the US, leading them to have refund money in Australia and to be under investigation in the EU. We live in the world were gamers take legal action because they don't like the end of story, so the risk is real.
I think the problem is that people already don't treat buying a game off a shelf as buying a game off a shelf. There are already far too many assumptions about the game being made specifically for their tastes and in perfect form technically despite sometimes mountains of evidence that may suggest (or downright state outright) otherwise. And this is for completed titles that they have had months or even years of "warnings" about.DustyDrB said:
I would rather not take the cynical stance but pre-ownership was already a problem before KickStarter became the big thing so it's rather hard not to.
Here's the thing about this statement though. I (and many others) are perfectly fine with assuming the risk if it means its the developers getting the money and not publishers. A lot (not the majority, but still a lot) of the support these games have gotten is coming from this sentiment. If Wasteland 2 fails I'm out $50. So what? At least I enabled a developer to continue having a job without having their passion for making games get sucked dry by a publisher. I am so fucking sick of every developer I love lose their jobs to the epitomes of human excrement that make up a publisher's executive board.albino boo said:
This Kickstarter thin
MvC3 didnt come with some characters? ok say that was a bad move, dont say youre entitled to it.
Prothean Day One DLC? Ok say that you feel as if they should of given this with the game, dont say youre entitled to it.
ME3 ending sucks? ok. say it was bad. dont fucking SUE THEM cause it was bad.
Tekken vs SF characters unlockable thru payment? Ok, say this is anti consumerist and a negative note on the game, dont fucking sue them and demand them to unlock it.
People love seeing things in black and white.
And i know, not everyone is lke this, but the outcries out there are like this.
Actually this is what pisses me off about gamers. The fucking entitlement. That because you bought a game, you have a right to sth other than what you bought off the shelf. Usually its just criticism you hear, wich is fine, criticism and opinions are good for quality check. But then you get shit like Mass Effect 3, with the PUTTING A PETITION WITH THE FCC FOR SUEING BIOWARE and that guilt trick called Retake Mass Effect. Or when you hear about Project 10 dollar or About some Day One DLC, as if the consumer has a say on how the developer makes the game hes selling. People need to diferentiate between what you have a right to and what you dont. This is nothing to do with criticism or with feeling betrayed. Thats ok, you can have those feelings and express them and make them public. Criticism is ok. whats not ok, is telling someone that they screwed you over and that you have a right to sth more, because you bought a 60 dollar game and thought it was gonna be sth it wasnt.StriderShinryu said:
MvC3 didnt come with some characters? ok say that was a bad move, dont say youre entitled to it.
Prothean Day One DLC? Ok say that you feel as if they should of given this with the game, dont say youre entitled to it.
ME3 ending sucks? ok. say it was bad. dont fucking SUE THEM cause it was bad.
Tekken vs SF characters unlockable thru payment? Ok, say this is anti consumerist and a negative note on the game, dont fucking sue them and demand them to unlock it.
People love seeing things in black and white.
And i know, not everyone is lke this, but the outcries out there are like this.
Anyone else kind of feel like Shamus always publishes articles saying the same thing as everyone else a week or two later? I think he's a good writer, but he always seems to be repeating points I've heard articulated long before. Also I miss Stolen Pixels...
OT I've only backed one project on Kickstarter (freddiew's VGHS) so I'm not super familiar with it, but I think even with the potential dangers it poses its ultimately a good thing. The more ways there are to get a game made, the better. Right now its a problem because everyone is using it, but I think eventually that will die down and not every developer and its dog will be throwing something up on Kickstarter.
OT I've only backed one project on Kickstarter (freddiew's VGHS) so I'm not super familiar with it, but I think even with the potential dangers it poses its ultimately a good thing. The more ways there are to get a game made, the better. Right now its a problem because everyone is using it, but I think eventually that will die down and not every developer and its dog will be throwing something up on Kickstarter.
matrix3509 said:
The problem lies not with your thinking but the assumption that all 87,142 people that have contributed to the double fine kickstarter are going to feel the same permanently. This is gamers that we are talking about here after all. Things go in cycles, just look the forums here 2-3 years ago steam was evil and now its not and I bet in 2 years time it will be hated again. Tim Schafer has record of shooting his mouth off, can you be sure he won't say something in the next 6 months that will make him figure of hate. This the internet we are dealing with here, a place were the opinions swap from one extreme to the other in the blink of an eye, not always with good reason.
I agree that all the backers aren't going to feel the same as I do, which is why I had that caveat. I will bet the total money I spent on Kickstarter these past few months (which is a lot) that many people DO feel that way. Why? Because we've seen evidence that the developers themselves feel this way. I realize its dangerous to make this assumption, but I'm going with my gut feeling, and I'm sticking with it to the end. I can only assume I won't be the only one.albino boo said:
Please... just please fucking stop using the word entitlement, its the goddamned Godwin's Law of gaming discussion, its hyperbolic at best, and disengenuous at worst. When you advertise every game you make as being the best fucking thing ever, not to mention outright lie about game content, do not be surprised when people get pissed. You don't see other products offering free blowjobs with every purchase, hence why other industries don't have to deal with this shit.draythefingerless said:
As an FYI the games that EA are selling were created by studios not owned by EA without EA's money as far as I can tell. Certainly since Deathspank was started in 2008, released in 2010 and they signed a deal with EA in 2010, EA's money wasn't involved. I think EA partners involves EA taking a cut of the money in return for some marketing, so I don't see why that would change a games indie status
While I thought of it as a good thing for gamers and developers of niche genres, I always figured that someone will attempt to make a project to get money, and than vanish, leaving the people who donated with empty wallets and broken hearts.
Thats also why I felt a game like that tactical, SWAT like FPS from some time back was a bad gamble. They wernt even making a finished game, they were using the funds to make a Alpha to show off and hopefully get a publisher.
And with this, I somewhat feel justified in my opinion of Kickstarter now.
Thats also why I felt a game like that tactical, SWAT like FPS from some time back was a bad gamble. They wernt even making a finished game, they were using the funds to make a Alpha to show off and hopefully get a publisher.
Shamus Young said:
And with this, I somewhat feel justified in my opinion of Kickstarter now.
Didn't Jonathan Blow throw a mountain of money at Braid? It's weird seeing it thrown around as an example of 2,000 dollar games.
Though I mostly wanted to comment on the last point, major companies passing stuff off as indie. Before I even thought about the possibility of actual scams, I thought the next stage would be major developers and producers coming to us with their hands out, whether in the "indie" guise or not.
I'm skeptical about Kickstarter. Granted, if I see the right one, I'll probably support it. Kind of wish I knew about the Shadowrun kickstarter, because DROOOOOL.
Otherwise...Proceed with caution indeed.
Though I mostly wanted to comment on the last point, major companies passing stuff off as indie. Before I even thought about the possibility of actual scams, I thought the next stage would be major developers and producers coming to us with their hands out, whether in the "indie" guise or not.
I'm skeptical about Kickstarter. Granted, if I see the right one, I'll probably support it. Kind of wish I knew about the Shadowrun kickstarter, because DROOOOOL.
Otherwise...Proceed with caution indeed.
Continuing the theme of cynicism, even if Devs are genuinely making games, not scaming people, there must be some temptation to over spend on 'expenses' (like lunch) when you don't have a publisher lauding over you and if it's a game people really want you can say you are near completion but ran out of money and people will give you more.
I think kickstarter is a good concept. I allows freedom from evil publishers, although this also creates greater greif if projects flops.
That's some of the beauty - they're not trying to make a large profit. Since they owe precisely $0 dollars to publishers and investors, the game's up-front budget will keep the developers in food and shelter while allowing them to do the job that they love best. If they're so inclined (after proving that the system works), rinse and repeat ad infinitum.SirBryghtside said:
Now, this isn't allowing for the fact that any sale upon release (as in every sale) is pure profit and there'll be a few sales at least.
EDIT : Well, to clarify, when I say "pure profit", I know that they'll pay some of the money to whatever distribution service they use, I just mean that instead of having to attempt to recoup spent money, any money made upon release is theirs to spend on future games/cocaine.
Well what you also need to take into account is the country that the games are made in, eg wages in the Czech Republic (ARMA 2), Ukraine (STALKER, Metro 2033), and Poland (Witcher) are a fair bit lower than in North America, Japan, or west Europe, so you can get a far larger game with a lot less cash. If STALKER had been made in the US, it would probably have cost just as much as your typical mid-tier big-budget shooter (eg, a Black or a Prey rather than a CoD or a Bioshock).Scrumpmonkey said: