259: Vaginophobia
- Thread starter Michael Thomsen
- Start date
I probably misunderstand the meaning of the word in this context, but when Janet Jakobsen says our secular society breeds many fears including fear of the female anatomy, it strikes me as a bit strange.
I don't think any of the churches have done anything to prevent female anatomy bashing in their "good books". Secular values have without doubt done women more good than religious values.
I don't think any of the churches have done anything to prevent female anatomy bashing in their "good books". Secular values have without doubt done women more good than religious values.
Now that is very true. I'm currently slugging through Alpha Protocol, and I don't really know where else to look other than Michael Thorton's bulging biceps and pecs.
After reading this article and some of the comments, (most of which are obviously men), I have only to say this:
It's frightening to be a woman- it always has been, and you gamer guys aren't making it any easier for those of us who have to live with you and game alongside you. Most of you are afraid to truly reflect on what the author said and are calling BS or coming up with excuses to make yourselves feel better. You probably feel your masculinity is at stake. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE. It's really not.
Woman are weaker physically, and now and historically we have had a lot more to loose in our encounters with the opposite sex. Misunderstanding, being treated as objects, rape- these are still prevalent today, and most have taken modern forms in the more 'civilized' countries. In videogames we see ourselves being made into objects to be oggled- we are hyper sexualized and one dimensional, and thats how the male fantasy wants it. (Male characters might be buff, but they aren't hyper sexualized- if they were they'd have giant erect penises, and cater to the desires of woman (or gay men), not to the male ego.) And to think there are games where you can kill the hussy/prostitute/girl for no reason other than 'you can' to fulfill some male fantasy is something that scares me deeply.
I am afraid of men.
Rape, in essence, is being treated as an object. Think about it... you don't care about her (or the general representation of women). They exist 'for you', to be feared, to be used for whatever pleasure you want at the time. When you treat a girl in a game as an object in order to act out your angst against women you are in essence raping all women, (or that woman if it is someone in particular).
We are people. Human beings, with hopes and dreams. We are your mothers, sisters, and daughters. We as a gender are generally not represented in the gaming medium in any respectable way.
I am a young married woman with a good husband and a son... I don't want him to grow up like you. I just want to be able to play Katamari or something with him when he gets older, and not worry about what dark path I might inadvertently be putting him on.
It's frightening to be a woman- it always has been, and you gamer guys aren't making it any easier for those of us who have to live with you and game alongside you. Most of you are afraid to truly reflect on what the author said and are calling BS or coming up with excuses to make yourselves feel better. You probably feel your masculinity is at stake. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE. It's really not.
Woman are weaker physically, and now and historically we have had a lot more to loose in our encounters with the opposite sex. Misunderstanding, being treated as objects, rape- these are still prevalent today, and most have taken modern forms in the more 'civilized' countries. In videogames we see ourselves being made into objects to be oggled- we are hyper sexualized and one dimensional, and thats how the male fantasy wants it. (Male characters might be buff, but they aren't hyper sexualized- if they were they'd have giant erect penises, and cater to the desires of woman (or gay men), not to the male ego.) And to think there are games where you can kill the hussy/prostitute/girl for no reason other than 'you can' to fulfill some male fantasy is something that scares me deeply.
I am afraid of men.
Rape, in essence, is being treated as an object. Think about it... you don't care about her (or the general representation of women). They exist 'for you', to be feared, to be used for whatever pleasure you want at the time. When you treat a girl in a game as an object in order to act out your angst against women you are in essence raping all women, (or that woman if it is someone in particular).
We are people. Human beings, with hopes and dreams. We are your mothers, sisters, and daughters. We as a gender are generally not represented in the gaming medium in any respectable way.
I am a young married woman with a good husband and a son... I don't want him to grow up like you. I just want to be able to play Katamari or something with him when he gets older, and not worry about what dark path I might inadvertently be putting him on.
A little pro-tip from a guy that goes out of his way to piss people off. A lot of an argument is tone and choice of words. To get someone to care what you think, you have to be very careful about what you say (and, before you start going off on one, this applies to EVERYONE), and from reading through what you've written, even without the joys of being able to hear you speak, your choice of words is entirely constructed to make your argument seem less worthwhile - combative, contrary and putting words into other people's mouths.girl_in_background said:Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "*****", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.Jinxey said:"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."
This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<
I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.
I ain't broke don't fix me.
Honestly, if that's you (and it does seem that way), much like it is me, I say enjoy it. You'll never be taken seriously, but fully embraced, it lets you say whatever the fuck you want. Go on, try it, throw "****" randomly into a conversation with an authority figure - it's VERY liberating. When you've done this, come back and we'll cover step two - not getting caught
Also, never met my father, mother never remarried or even had a boyfriend, so that won't work on me
OT - I've read this before, and I still don't agree. Of course, I'm a grown man who has embraced his immature side with a vengeance, so it might just be that I don't see the bad side to wanting to gun shit down. Also, Dom kills his wife as a mercy killing, not out of a sense of mysoginist wankery.
Thanks for seeing the good in that.Chipperz said:A little pro-tip from a guy that goes out of his way to piss people off. A lot of an argument is tone and choice of words. To get someone to care what you think, you have to be very careful about what you say (and, before you start going off on one, this applies to EVERYONE), and from reading through what you've written, even without the joys of being able to hear you speak, your choice of words is entirely constructed to make your argument seem less worthwhile - combative, contrary and putting words into other people's mouths.girl_in_background said:Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "*****", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.Jinxey said:"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."
This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<
I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.
I ain't broke don't fix me
Honestly, if that's you (and it does seem that way), much like it is me, I say enjoy it. You'll never be taken seriously, but fully embraced, it lets you say whatever the fuck you want. Go on, try it, throw "****" randomly into a conversation with an authority figure - it's VERY liberating. When you've done this, come back and we'll cover step two - not getting caught
Also, never met my father, mother never remarried or even had a boyfriend, so that won't work on me
OT - I've read this before, and I still don't agree. Of course, I'm a grown man who has embraced his immature side with a vengeance, so it might just be that I don't see the bad side to wanting to gun shit down. Also, Dom kills his wife as a mercy killing, not out of a sense of mysoginist wankery.
Honestly, after I hit the post button, I had one of those moments where it's like "Ah, crap, shouldnt've done that...". So, if I offended anyone with my post, please accept my apology. The first post, I didn't mean for it to come off sounding the way it did, the second post, well... I don't have any excuse for it, so again, I am sorry. I must say, though, thank you for not just ripping me a new one, and actually pointing out what I did wrong. I'll work on rectifying those errors in the future. 
oooohhhh kay ... I'm afraid of men too... mainly because every job I've lost was because of a guy, the one time I truly felt as though I may be murdered (not necessarily just killed like in a car accident) was due to a man, and it was my original thought that it would be men that are likely to beat me up (albeit history has actually proven this incorrect).Furrama said:
But that being said one thing I hate is the assumption that men should be considered dangerous without an examination of the individual. 'Men' should not change, because most men are decent, honourable and affable indivduals (keyword, INDIVIDUALS) ... just because there is a (TINY) section of the populace (atleast here in Australia) that may be prehistoric dinosaurs they do NOT represent men in general.
Say what you like, I am more regularly hurt by women than I am other men actually. Maybe women should change and cease their aggressive emotional sabotaging? Afterall I think most men in the western world would say with little hesitation that the biggest 'hurt' they have ever received was at the lips of a woman.
Dare I say it women probably cause 90% of male suicides (biggest cause of death in males under 45 in Australia). Emotional bullying by women hurt more than any physical torment I have ever received.
Speaking as a male, I am a little sick of all the macho power fantasies we have in games as protagonists. People like Marcus Fenix and Kratos are embarrassing to show to the outside and even Nathan Drake is really just a smug twit (seriously, when the protagonists of the DMC series beat you in the emotional spectrum, you have problems). For every Ezio, Cloud Strife, Fei Fong Wong, Ashley Riot, and Niko Bellic there are dozens of gravelly-voiced, scruffy-faced, steroid-injected twits that just ooze insecurity from the designers. There's a reason Hollywood grew out of using those kinds of people to do their action movies after the 90s.
And the female population gets stiffed even worse in this. Bayonetta for example is a pathetic attempt at 'sexiness' that misses the meaning of the word like a champ. You want good female characters go check out Aya Brea (Parasite Eve), Lenneth Valkyrie or her sister Silmeria (Valkyrie Profile), or the ENTIRE female cast of Odin Sphere. Oh, and of course Samus, even if her fame was due to an awesome fake-out by Nintendo
And the female population gets stiffed even worse in this. Bayonetta for example is a pathetic attempt at 'sexiness' that misses the meaning of the word like a champ. You want good female characters go check out Aya Brea (Parasite Eve), Lenneth Valkyrie or her sister Silmeria (Valkyrie Profile), or the ENTIRE female cast of Odin Sphere. Oh, and of course Samus, even if her fame was due to an awesome fake-out by Nintendo
I hate to repost all of that, but I don't feel like trimming it.Epoetker said:
I believe you misunderstand me, or are perhaps projecting something on what I said that I did not intend. Perhaps you are trolling, I don't know. I didn't mean to incite such anger, only offer up my fears, weaknesses, to the conversation.
All I mean is, it is a horrible feeling to be, at the end of it all, powerless- at the mercy and good graces of menfolk. Men can be good or bad, just as women can, but all is not equal at the end of the day.
It is also very terrifying to know that there is a corner of an industry, (not all of it), that caters to men wishing to act out acts of violence towards -my- kind. If it was a white man beating up on a black man we would not be having this discussion- it would be considered racist, a 'pseudo' hate crime. Indeed, this happened with a game recently that took place in Africa, (though It appears this was not the intent, it did raise some hackles). But women don't seem to get the same consideration.
On a side note, it appears you are one for whom the article was intended. Women are not the enemies of men, the evil that you have portrayed. Also, I'm just a girl, not a feminist... well, not a raging one anyway. Most woman are a little, it would be silly not to root for your team a bit.
As for my son, he will do what he wants when he leaves. I just hope he respects woman enough not to see them as mere objects, no matter what he does. And that he'll stop by and play a round of something with his parents once in a while.
So, you're afraid that women are going to hurt your feelings.PaulH said:
That's a valid fear. It doesn't mean that there IS an evil conspiracy of women out there actively scheming to hurt your feelings, of course, but fearing hurt is a legitimate thing to be afraid of.
However, most women in the western world are afraid that they are going to be raped and murdered. Again, this doesn't mean there actually ARE roving rape gangs in the streets of Australia, but this is what they fear. Particularly since both rape and murder happen quite a lot, and when they do happen, public reaction is usually to claim that it was all the victim's fault for not being on guard enough.
What they fear is kind of more dangerous than what you fear, and this can tend to make them quite angry when the fears are compared.
"Men" do not need to change in order to stop the rapes and murders, because MOST men are not rapists and murderers. "Women" do not need to change their "aggressive emotional sabotaging" because most women are not actually out to get you. For that matter, men can be raped, men can be murdered, and men can be emotionally abusive. Men and women are really not so different most of the time.
PEOPLE need to change, to recognise when SOME PEOPLE do bad things, attempt to prevent them from doing so, and support people who have had bad things happen to them. All of this "I NEED A SPECIAL MAN PLACE TO BE MANLY IN" (or for that matter, a special woman place to be womanly) is not helping.
Are you seriously, in public, going to sit here and state that the most important thing about women is what they look like? Seriously?Epoetker said:
Do you think the same thing is true for men? If not, why not?
Although if you've actually studied the field, you should be aware that the percentage of rape in romance novels has drastically declined over time. It was quite high when romance novels were a new genre. Why? SHAME. It was absolutely unimaginable that a "good" girl would seek out sex, so having the heroine be constantly ravished (by, of course, highly desirable men) was necessary in order to maintain her image as a heroine. That makes it all "not her fault" - she can still be good and noble and pure and everything that the reader wanted to identify with.
The closer you get to modern times the more general distaste you find among romance readers for the rapist hero. Modern romance novels find that idea squicky. Characters are pushed together in forced marriages, but the sex in general now tends to wait until both partners consent.
The rape fantasy lingers most in the young and inexperienced, who are too flustered to imagine actually approaching someone they're interested in, and enjoy giggling over the idea of being "swept away" by a handsome stranger who will do everything for them so they can just lie back and enjoy it without having to figure out how it's all supposed to work.
There are, of course, some people both male and female with 'rape fetishes', and there's nothing wrong with that - fantasy rape is not at all the same as the real thing.
However, when "rape romance" is ubiquitous, it stems from societal pressure.
... Why do you assume that any given woman both has beauty and snubs so-called beta males?
Precisely. Both sexes use their sex as weapons to a degree. The fallacy of 'there's no female bullies' has been disproven. That being said it really doesn't help when people talk abut bullying and they automatically assume 'oh it's a bunch of guys in primary school/high school 'binning' weaker guys'. I would think this is why the computer entertainment industry has developed the way it has.hanako said:
This report completely skirted the fact that many that go through school are hurt by both sexes. In an industry dominated by males, then of course you are going to have that sub-concious thought of the female sex as largely beyond the concept of reason. So you do have this monolithic ideal that 'men will be men ... they will fight eachother' whilst games do not tend to focus on the 'well let's take the psychological avenue of "attack" ... a war game that assaults the psychology of the protagonist rather than the body.'
Psychological warfare is an established (albeit debateable ethically) avenue of tactical recourse ... attacking the cohesion of an enemy nation through the threat of fear and creating insecurities (for an enemy trying to discover who to trust). Of course this is completely ignored in games.
It's an 'us vs. them' in war games.
Beyond super-realistic RTS combat games (such as the 'Close Combat' game series which probably has the best psychological and morale systems in a war game ever) the whole aspect of psychology and morale is completely ignored ... a unit under your command will sacrifice itself without second thought in the face of overwhelming enemy fire. Starcraft for example, has a female character whose marked notion of 'control' is the *very* relateable 'My Zerg hordes outnumber all you mothers, therefore I'll rush you suckers'. She doesn't employ psychology beyond the psychology of violence and fear through pure physical domination and physical feat of arms.
There are reasons for this. Because men often find themselves psychologically shaken by less moral female individuals in society. A male bully will utilise the psychology of fear, but that fear is directly relateable to the threat of harm. There are few exceptions to this ... for example the male bully who uses bullying as a means of social continuity of status (the Good old Draco Malfoys of the world). But this is more evident (and propagated) in female members of society through most Western medias. Female members of society will utilise entrapment, status, and wealth. And these can be exceptional barriers to male understanding of the female psychology.
This article sorta assumes there is no reason beyond this beside 'male insecurities' in the modern world, but the fact of the matter is that there is no 'effect' without 'cause'. Why do Men feel as though the 'female' is a dangerous thing?
It has nothing to do with genetics but social norms and conformities. Men exist in a world where even in the family unit their sisters are called 'Princess' and they themselves are labelled 'sonny' or similiar ... connoting an automatic responsibility to uphold what they see in their fathers, whilst removing their sisters from those very same social entrapments. The problem (as always) begins in the indoctrination of youth.
Even 'rape' is no longer a 'male' problem in modern society. It seems as though there is a greater number of false rape allegations then there are real instances of rape. Which hurts both true victims of rape, but also punishes men who have done no wrong and victiizes them due to psychotic women. This is a recorded phenomenon that was first brought to light by an internal review by the USAF back in the 80's due to heightened numbers of 'rape' cases being prosecuted in military courts. They discovered that 60% of cases were completely fictional ... that didn't stop the majority of the defendants in these cases being sent to prison or otherwise having their lives shattered despite being found innocent later on.
As you said, it's 'people' that need to change, not a specific sex. This article completely skirted the 'cause' of why alot of men in the modern world are somewhat shaken by the presence of the female perspective. There are real reasons for these insecurities ,and if they were to be addressed unbiasly then I think that the image of women in videogames woulkd drastically improve.
... wait, are you only talking about what's most important in terms of heterosexual people meeting each other with the intent of forming relationships? That puts a slightly different spin on what you're saying. Because I'm baffled at the idea that you would evaluate an artist or mechanic or manager solely on her appearance.Epoetker said:
To quote someone else's blog:
"Honestly, do any of these people ever lift their heads up past their own genitals to see the world around them? Do they sit through every movie thinking nothing but "I'd do her. Would do her. Wouldn't do her. Gotta fart. Ah, just farted. Might do her. Would TOTALLY do her AND her sister. Gonna think about that for a while. Yeah, I'd back-door the sister while the first one sat on my face. That'd be good. Then they could buy me a hamburger and tell me how cool my Transformers fan-art is. Yeah, gonna think about that some more. Wait, where am I? Oh, the lights are on and everyone's leaving? Guess the movie's over. Hey, look at that girl over there, walking out. Yeah, I guess I'd do her if there wasn't anything good on TV.""
No - from about 100% to under 5%, thus averaging out at around 50-60% overall.
Which point? I'm agreeing with you that the "rapist hero" was a very common thing in early romance novels. This is a provable fact, it would be silly for me to deny it.You're not exactly defeating my point here
However, some people will try to use this to argue utter nonsense about biological destiny and how menz want to raep and wimminz wants to be raped and therefore we should just let them go at it... when this is very much not the case.
Most people want sex. They also want to be socially acceptable. Few people, no matter how desperately they want to get laid, will strip naked in public and yell "COME AND GET IT!" They attempt to pick up dates in socially acceptable manners and hide the aspects of their activities which they consider shameful.
Not really. See Twilight, for example. Now, I must admit up front that I have not read it, I've only read a lot of reviews and essays discussing it. But it's VERY popular, there are hordes of female readers, and plenty of them are young.
The 'hero' is still creepy as hell and stalks the pure innocent heroine. But what he does not do is rape her. Social standards have changed and fantasies have changed with them - instead, as I understand it, she spends a few books begging him to sleep with her while he refuses because he doesn't want to besmirch her chastity!
(See also - fanfiction.)
If fully-consensual sex six months after getting married when you've finally come to love and trust each other counts as "almost raped" in your worldview, it'll be difficult to have anything resembling a sensible discussion here.
Romance novels (and fanfic) like to use weird situations to shove characters together because that allows for conflict and that builds the drama. A story about two people who like each other, get married, have sex, and live happily ever after is kinda dull. A man forced to marry his enemy's daughter in order to save his family castle and attempt to woo her while fending off invading vikings or whatever - that's a story!
*eyeroll*
Most people who play fantasy games involving swords and monster fighting wouldn't particularly want to be in a real life-or-death battle, either. Despite the handwringing of occasional censorship elements, even small children understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Of course, not all people have managed to reach the mental level of the average small child.
No, men who are of good alignment support feminist legislation because they support equality and human rights. Men who are not of good alignment laugh and point and squawk about how ugly all the feminists are, and how clearly they'll never be able to get a man. Somehow missing the point that diehard feminists don't give a shit if Joe Random thinks they're ugly and doesn't want to screw them.
I have to address this for memetic reasons. Even in that particular report, the number was a third, not 60%. Most large-scale research puts the number at about 10-20%, although individual studies have found false rates going anywhere from 5% to 45%. However, people tend to repeat things and shade them in the direction of their own personal beliefs, causing the numbers to become increasingly more inflated, which is where you get some people claiming 1% and some people claiming 80% without a scrap of truth behind either.PaulH said:
False rape claims happen, and yes, they can damage people's lives (although it's highly unlikely for lives to be *destroyed* unless there's not only a false claim but a terrible trial and an incorrect verdict. The Duke boys' lives certainly weren't ruined, although they were VERY inconvenienced for a while there.)
Going to trial badly damages the lives of both the plaintiff and the defendant, regardless of whether there is guilt or innocence. The whole modern 'justice' system is screwed up and I don't know how to fix it. There's a lot more wrong than just rape trials - there are false claims of burglary and assault, there are people locked up for murder without a scrap of real physical evidence, there are people who lose their jobs because they were accused of a crime and therefore locked up to *await* trial... There's a whole lot of problems out there. The system isn't perfect and I have no idea how to make it so.
Now that I look it up, I discover that one of the guys from the Duke case has been working with the Innocence Project to help other people behind bars. Good on him.
(Also again, remember, not all rapists are men and not all rape victims are women.)
My bad ... the figure is moreso (or should say *atleast*) 50%. 25% of the women admitted to the USAF internal review that their allegations were false when asked to take a lie detector test. A further 15% of the original number of case accusers afterwards admitted they falsified the charges after an independant review of the allegations within the 9 year period.hanako said:
In an associated university study led by Kanin investigating rape cases, a total of 41% recanted on their statements saying that it wasn't rape, or we're disproven in a court of law. Assuming that that 41% includes allegations either being disproved or their victims 'recanting' on their allegations ... then we can also assume that there are alleged victims of whom still hold nto the story they were raped despite it being a fictional occurence.
And yes, I am doing a disservice to males as victims of rape as well, of which are rarely reported until there is significant damage to which cannot be covered up by the victim for fear of public reactions to a male being violated.
But I hardly think labelling the 'victims' themselves who recant their allegations as 'without a scrap of truth' that the number of actual rape cases and cases of falsified rape are more or less equal. If only because there would have been 'victims' of rape that would not have been discovered by both studies.
And false rape allegations do destroy lives. For the same reason false reports of child abuse by teachers destroy teacher's lives. Despite being found innocent they will live in fear .. their name has been plastered over the news, but does the news turn around and spend the same amount of time vindicating the teacher's innocence when found so in a court of law? No.
They get a blurb on page 10 of some random newspaper.
Not only this but you have the aspect of 'being found innocent in a court is not the same as BEING innocent' approach people take. Like a businessman accused of orchestrating fraud is universally distrusted in economic circles despite having been found innocent of such charges.
As I said, even if these are not definitive statistics that can be applied to Western nations beyond the US, courts tend to favour empathizing with the alleged victim of rape ... not empathize with the notion that they could very well be condemning an innocent person. This is not how the law should operate.
Point is false allegations of rape don't just hurt those falsly accused, they hurt victims of true rape. As people are becoming increasingly jaded towards rape victims because new rape reform laws and other cases of false allegations have misdirected our pity far too often to only victims who are blatantly victims beyond question, whereas true victims of rape who have far harder cases to prove we might treat with disdain (the 'oh, another one' response that accompanies familiarity).