Surges fit well with the concept of hit points as stamina - you get to take a breather and regain some of your vigor. Cure Light Wounds introduces way more "dissociation" than surges do.Badger Kyre said:I thought surges were more of the same "dissociated mechanics" that has been a bugbear of D&D since day 1 - hit points were supposed to represent NOT GETTING HURT in the first place ( V&V had "power" that represented it better IMO, and has popped up other places )
I'm not at all holding Guild Wars up as an example of complex or (god forbid) realistic sword-fighting. I'm holding it up as an example of a fun squad-based tactical game (one which doesn't really do nuanced hand-to-hand fighting at all). Which is the pen-and-paper niche that D&D4 serves well, in my view.Badger Kyre said:As to Guild Wars, I ENJOY THE HELL out of it, but let's be honest, unless you mean PvE, the combats in GW have as much to do with any kind of reasonable fighting simulation as Tetris does. And the Warrior has CONSIDERABLY fewer options than one in 3rd is likely to, even my warrior-priest, it's still maxed at 8; and most of the "options" are really "special attacks" that cause wounds that should be consequent of ANY time you are stabbing or hitting someone.
Looking at your bar and seeing 8 options is way too reductive. What makes the game worthwhile, especially in PvP, is knowing when to use that slowing attack or interrupt or knockdown, when to go for big damage and when to conserve your resources, when to overextend and when to pull back. The GW Warrior and D&D4 Fighter have a lot in common -- they're both "sticky" opponents who are tough to bring down but difficult to ignore.
The five-foot step is still a big-grid thing; it's for moving around the big battle map trying to inch closer to another opponent or close off some path an enemy has. A real fight's full of much more subtle motion as well -- the kinds of situations where an extra six inches of reach makes all the difference. That's the stuff that most RPGs ignore -- often quite oddly, because they get into so many of these other details of fighting (called shots! critical hit tables! 1001 special attack feats!) but basically just have miniatures standing next to each other slugging it out.Badger Kyre said:3rd has ALOT of issues and inconsistencies; and DOES NOT encourage standing still -- but lack of fighter options and tactical sense aren't EITHER.
A fight in 3rd turns into a swirl of "5'steps" - which in 4th is represented also, just not as logically - the fights tend to be people manuevering in melee - and I suspect you should watch an SCA fight or a boxing match if you think the guild wars/mmo combat is better simulating anything but a GAME.
I mean subtle positioning (see above).Badger Kyre said:I think you mean "positioning" and 3rd used the "drift" mechanic and threaten "attacks of opportunity" to represent the swirl of melee - I suspect "marks" were supposed to represent some of the same things, just "mmo style".
Think about it this way: replace D&D's typical multi-combatant "swirl of melee" with a duel. See how little the fighters are actually doing now? Sure, they can move around, but there's very little to actually gain from it unless they're part of a much bigger group battle.
Well, all I'm doing is taking people's claims about what they like and don't like at face value, but casting the net wider than just 4th Edition. Like, for example, if you hate demigods (and, actually, I know I do), it stands to reason that this is a black mark not just for 4th Edition, but for other games that did the exact same thing. And if it turns out you don't, then it's time to step back and wonder "Okay, where's my actual dislike of this thing coming from?"Badger Kyre said:HOWEVER I think the real discussion has been whether people think 4th Ed served their style of gameplay, or not, and I don't think your responses changed anyone's opinion on that.
I don't want to change anyone's play preferences -- just strip away surface statements that I think aren't actually reflective of why someone prefers Game X or Edition Y.
Enh? I'm confused about this last bit -- what is it in reply to?Badger Kyre said:ps, Dark Sun may be a bad example - it is low-loot but HIGH fantasy.
-- Alex
Edit: Fixed quote.