279: Wussy RPG Girls

theexhippy

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Whichi said:
theexhippy said:
Where would you put Aeris and Tifa from Final Fantasy VII on the scale?
Tifa: whiny angst who happens to enjoy a good brawl every once in a while. Note: does almost as much crying as Cloud does.

Aeris: healer princess. gets "sacrificed". no one really cared or remembered after disc 1 until the end of disc 3.
Fair enough but couldn't Aeris also be seen as the healer/Obi-Wan Kenobi character? After all her chopped by the big bad side kick of the ultimate evil only made her more powerful. I know "Old Ben" could be a bit of an stickler but I wouldn't have said "Princess"... :)
 
Oct 14, 2010
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I loved the infusion of history and culture by comparing the "Princess Type" to kabuki. Hearing of the female exploited as the sacrificial lamb to be pitied reminded me of reading The Highwayman [http://www.potw.org/archive/potw85.html] back in high school.

And certainly there are exceptions to the rule, but it seems that most female JRPG characters (or at least most of the ones who are emphasized in their stories) share these traits.
 

DTWolfwood

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Oct 20, 2009
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Um to be fair, most JRPG male leads can pass for women anyways :p

::trollface:: XD
 

Nazrel

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To be fair to Atoli, she was supposed to represent deceit, and they had already a manipulative archetype with Sakubo(the Machinator).

I personally thought the whole trying to appear to be what everyone else wanted her to be was a rather novel take on the concept.

It was also quite definitively defined as a character flaw to be overcome.

Oh, and as for Rosa, second most powerful character in the game, first being Rita. She gets an attack that does around 7500 damage. None of the guys get anything remotely close to this.
 

craddoke

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Mar 18, 2010
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Very good article - it does a good job of explaining the particular problems of JRPGs when it comes to the depiction of women. Of course, it's not like Western games are shining exemplars of equality either. There are plenty more Bellas than Buffys in games (and media generally) on both sides of the Pacific.
 

Sabrestar

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Apr 13, 2010
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Let's not forget the tendency of the JRPG girls to be the weak defenceless healers of the group, which Rosa is a perfect example of. (And another reason I adore Phantasy Star IV so much for kicking that trope in the balls with Alys and Hahn.)

I do think calling out Celes is worthwhile here. There's a reason she's my favourite character in my favourite game.

Unlike most JRPG girls, she can fight (and bloody well). She's a leader, but of a military sort rather than political. The game doesn't deny she's attractive, but doesn't pay much attention to it (except for the Opera sequence, to which her disbelieving reaction is more a subversion of the trope than anything). And as the game goes on, she becomes more and more central to the game - in a time when the "main character" being female was still somewhat blasphemous. She always seems to me as a rare balance of "feminine" grace and "masculine" action in a genre that has trouble with that.

Now if only she wasn't a blonde...
 

LordWalter

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Sep 19, 2009
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ahaha man, this is spectacular writing and insightful commentary, especially:

"Happily, ladies with spines are finally starting to outnumber the wusses. Nevertheless, writers should keep in mind that giving Mike Tyson breasts and a sword might not be the best way to go about doing it."

(God...think Fable II Female with Maxed Strength)
 

Johnny Danger

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Oct 19, 2008
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I think my favorite female character in any JRPG is Selan from Lufia II. It's been a long while since I played it, but I remember her being strong and capable without being written into any stereotypes.

That game was so awesome. I think it was one of the finest SNES games made but hardly anyone played it.
 

Wutaiflea

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Mar 17, 2009
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So, we don't have the princess stereotype in Western culture?

What the fuck were all those Disney dolls I had as a girl about?!

I really don't agree with the article. Yes, JRPGs do sometimes have weak heroines, but they also have very strong, positive female leads, such as Tifa from FF7 and Yuna from FFX.

Particularly using Rosa as an example was a bad choice in my book, considering Rydia, from the same game, is extremely strong and positively portrayed over-coming her problems and rejecting unwanted male attention in favour of standing on her own two feet.
 

Cinnonym

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Mar 3, 2010
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I find this article almost disappointingly "token".

I wish the blame on poor videogame heroines would be taken off of sexism and placed where it belongs: with bad writing.
 

Azaraxzealot

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Dec 1, 2009
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glad someone else notices how ass-backwards 99.999999% of all JRPGs are...

which is why we should look to the Americas and Europe for actual GOOD games with REAL depth.
 

GestaltEsper

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Oct 11, 2009
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afrosan said:
I find this article almost disappointingly "token".

I wish the blame on poor videogame heroines would be taken off of sexism and placed where it belongs: with bad writing.
That always bugs me. If a story has a bad hero it's bad writing, but if it has a bad heroine "OMG SEXISM!!!!!!!!!!111111111111!!!!!!!1111!!!"
 

The Electro Gypsy

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Aug 10, 2010
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"Can you imagine a FFVII where Cloud consteantly suckerpunches Barret?" Yes, and it's totally hilairious.

However I do agree with you that teh ladies are a bit *too* kind sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's bad for a character. There are kind people in the world so having a person who is kind and caring does fit, especially when there are super macho people around, it's nice to have some balance to the spectrum, even if it's a bit mad.

If you want a woman char who's fairly powerful while still being a woman in persona, look at Thingy-Mah-Giggy from FFX (The Caster I cannot remembe- Lulu, she was 'ard as nails) who was essential in the party, was constructive to the other chars but still had emotion. (Also, I seem to be the only person out of everyone I've spoken to who actually liked FFX :p The Cinematics weren't great but the Battle System was ace)
 

Quicksilver_Phoenix

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Apr 14, 2009
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Nice article; well written. You raised some interesting points.

However, it does make me feel slightly old-fashioned. I personally enjoy the romantic idea of the beautiful princess being rescued by a dashing Prince charming. I'm perfectly ok with weak characters, as it seems to humanise them more. Heck, I like to see the male protagonist lose his momentum sometimes too. It's interesting when a character stops being powerful.

Oh, and Lightning as manly? I only remember her punching someone once. She always came across as subtly feminine, behind her cold exterior, to me...
 

Arcanist

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Feb 24, 2010
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Wutaiflea said:
Yuna from FFX.
Yuna... who was that?

Oh... her. I'm sorry, you'll have to forgive me. I never really got to know her, considering she was kidnapped every five nanoseconds.

Even her very existence in the story serves to reinforce the stereotype that the only heroic thing a woman can do is sacrifice herself and be rescued - the entire reason she was in the party was because she was going to kill herself to defeat Sin. Gee, I wonder what that could possibly mean...

Though I think you're giving Tales of Symphonia too little credit. Sure, Colette is about as stereotyped as they come, but I think they handled Sheena well.
 

VondeVon

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Dec 30, 2009
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Eileen Stahl said:
And by "capable," I don't mean they need to deck their male co-stars in the face once per hour of game time, a la Lightning of Final Fantasy XIII.
THANK you!

I'm not generally a fan of female leads for precisely this reason. They tend to be too wussy or too aggressive. I actually preferred Mummy's-boy Hope to Lightning, despite how annoying he was. Then again, he could never match Vanille. GOSH I wish she'd been optional like Yuffie.

Eileen Stahl said:
Can you imagine a Final Fantasy VII with Cloud constantly sucker-punching Barret?
...Yeah, I can now. Heh heh heh.

CitySquirrel said:
I am also surprised Aeris didn't appear in this article.
I thought of her in regards to the flower.
 

estoria-etnia

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Aug 22, 2009
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I think that Eileen Stahl might have missed the point of Tales of Symphonia. She says that Colette "systematically loses her ability to eat, feel, and speak; willingly dooms herself to die as a sacrifice for the world," which is true. But she's also ignoring the fact that Colette is the Chosen One and that, technically, she's EXPECTED to die in order to save the world by becoming an angel (the vessel for the Goddess Martel who isn't even an actual goddess). Colette's fate is meant to be viewed as a tragedy because she really is not given a choice about it; if she doesn't go through with sacrificing herself then the world will eventually die.

As well, Tales games have often been about deconstructing the entire 'Chosen One' device. The reason that all of those negative things happen to Colette is really BECAUSE she is the Chosen One. It's not meant to be pretty or heroic, it's meant to be tragic. I liked Colette as a character because she was surprisingly sympathetic despite the fact that she's supposed to die ? she accepts that ? and does admit that she's scared about dying and becoming an angel, but she's also strong. It's even noted that one of the characters wishes they could be more like her because of that strength she has in facing her own death despite her fears.

Tales games also have a surprisingly good roster of strong female characters. Sheena, for instance, is a little bit clumsy but she wants to save her world and the people she cares for, but she is also ? later in the game if you complete certain side-quests ? made the successor to the leader of the village of Mizuho. Raine can't cook but is incredibly smart and often times serves as the voice of reason for the group; she's sort of the mentor of the group, especially given that she is the main characters' teacher at the start of the game. Lastly, Presea is shown swinging an axe around that is just as big as she is and is, personally, my favorite melee fighter. She might not be as fast as Lloyd, but she packs a strong punch and is shown to be a strong woman who is just insecure about the fact that she's been stuck in the body of a twelve year old for sixteen years.

Then again, Tales games are about deconstructing a lot of common devices used in video games... the villains are often not hugely Complete Monsters and there is a bit of a blurred line about who may or may not be in the wrong sometimes.

You also get Tear in Tales of the Abyss, Chloe Valens in Tales of Legendia, and Judith in Tales of Vesperia; all strong female characters without them being too in-your-face like Lightning on the other side of the spectrum.