I hope you write more of these articles, lightning was a HORRIBLE character among other bad characters in a bad linear game that I wouldn't even call a final fantasy game.EileenStahl said:
279: Wussy RPG Girls
- Thread starter Eileen Stahl
- Start date
JRPGs seem to be lagging behind Anime, which went through this transition and is already out the other end.
The traditional Anime girl was your "princess" type. Ornimental and useless except as a motivator and back-story piece for the male characters. (I always think of Lin MinMei in Robotech as the perfect example.)
Then came the feminist response, where the female and male roles were literally reversed. "Catseye", which is about 3 sister thieves, is a good example. The men are so stupid and worthless that the middle sister is actually dating a police inspector who never seems to catch on to anything that is going on around him.
The final period, which we are in now, is much more balanced with male and female characters often teamed as equal heroes. Right now I'm watching Blassrieter which is just one of many modern examples of this.
The traditional Anime girl was your "princess" type. Ornimental and useless except as a motivator and back-story piece for the male characters. (I always think of Lin MinMei in Robotech as the perfect example.)
Then came the feminist response, where the female and male roles were literally reversed. "Catseye", which is about 3 sister thieves, is a good example. The men are so stupid and worthless that the middle sister is actually dating a police inspector who never seems to catch on to anything that is going on around him.
The final period, which we are in now, is much more balanced with male and female characters often teamed as equal heroes. Right now I'm watching Blassrieter which is just one of many modern examples of this.
I agree with the article, wussy girls/overmanly-girls arent interesting nor fun.
And it doesnt make sense, since these character dont seem to have a problem with killing billions of hideous monsters in hell to get to the next "plot point" where.. they get stupid.
I mean, the character is going to be a badass (aka not hopelessly naive, stupid and innocent) from the start if their routine is to punch Chtullu in the face then rip him appart for breakfast (and his loot)... so it doesnt make sense that they break down and are easily captured whenever a cutscene shows up.
Then they cry about the importance of life in a dramatic akward moment.. but why didnt you say anything when we killed 300 human bandits to level up and buy you a new combat umbrella?
Then again, the average villian is very often a complete idiot with no other goal than "get more power and destroy/conquer everything".. because.. he can.
Writers are just lazy and they always use the same boring tropes and cliches, beleivable, deep and coherent characters are kind of rare.
And it doesnt make sense, since these character dont seem to have a problem with killing billions of hideous monsters in hell to get to the next "plot point" where.. they get stupid.
I mean, the character is going to be a badass (aka not hopelessly naive, stupid and innocent) from the start if their routine is to punch Chtullu in the face then rip him appart for breakfast (and his loot)... so it doesnt make sense that they break down and are easily captured whenever a cutscene shows up.
Then they cry about the importance of life in a dramatic akward moment.. but why didnt you say anything when we killed 300 human bandits to level up and buy you a new combat umbrella?
Then again, the average villian is very often a complete idiot with no other goal than "get more power and destroy/conquer everything".. because.. he can.
Writers are just lazy and they always use the same boring tropes and cliches, beleivable, deep and coherent characters are kind of rare.
I fail to see how this makes them any different from female characters in other genres of video games, from both Japan and the USA alike.
If you want a counter-example, look at Celes, from FFVI. Undeniably feminine, yet tough, dynamic, with an excellent character arc and she pretty much steals the second half of the game.
If you want a counter-example, look at Celes, from FFVI. Undeniably feminine, yet tough, dynamic, with an excellent character arc and she pretty much steals the second half of the game.
The problem with Rinoa is that she's the fantasy girl of an introvert nerd too shy to make any effort or himself. She's not exactly a life-coach girlfriend character, but she does go to ridiculous lengths to bring Squall out of his shell. It doesn't matter that you are socially completely inept when she will, of all people, choose to cling to you until and after you figure out how to interact with people.The Cheezy One said:
You know, it's actually a good thing she went comatose or else Squall's character development, which was the only real point of the plot, would have completely relied on that pathetic dynamic. That's right, she contributed more to the story as a MacGuffin Girl.
Muramasa: The Demon Blade isn't exactly an rpg, but the female lead, Momohime, also fits into this category, she is an actual princess, seen innocent, gentle and kind, yet I never once heard her whine. Well.. except when the male lead came into the hot springs around the mountains at times while she was bathing but that's understandable.
Her masculine parts in personality though come from an evil, murderer's spirit, possessing her body so he may either get his body back or get revenge for those who killed him. Both parts of her are likeable, though you only see her feminine parts near the start of the story and at the hot springs. She's strong but wouldn't waste her breath on punching the nearest person or killing more than she needs to defend herself from.
Her masculine parts in personality though come from an evil, murderer's spirit, possessing her body so he may either get his body back or get revenge for those who killed him. Both parts of her are likeable, though you only see her feminine parts near the start of the story and at the hot springs. She's strong but wouldn't waste her breath on punching the nearest person or killing more than she needs to defend herself from.
You said it was worse before 2000, I think I might have gotten a bit worse. While rosa is not exactly a strong female character look at other RPG's from the SNES era. Lets look at Square RPG's (because that is what I'm the most familiar with):
(oh and spoilers)
Final Fantasy 6 had Terra a fairly powerful female lead (and the closest thing to a Final Fantasy game having a leading female until XIII). Yeah she had a mental breakdown, but that was closer to Bruce Banner turning into the hulk. Then their is Celis who was the 2nd in command of the imperial army that is until she had a crisis of conscious and betrayed them. She to has a potential "moment of weakness" where she attempts to comit suicide (assuming you aren't really good at catching fish) but her adoptive father died in front of her shortly after her waking up from a coma shortly after all her friends were presumably killed when they failed to stop the villain from becoming a god. All in all, I might consider suicide under those circumstances as well.
In Chrono Trigger their is the Princes Marley who is sort of tecnicaly kidnapped but not really. She is a a complete tom boy and after the main character dies she basically becomes the team leader. Luca a genius, she is smart and independant and not overtly feminin. Finally their is Ayla who is not only the chief of her village, but could smash your head it two if she wanted to.
In Secret of Mana one of the main plot points is the Female Character (you enter her name)is trying to save her boyfriend from the villain, and not the other way around. She like Marly is also a tom boy and head strong, except instead of using a cross bow her starting weapon is a pair of Iron Knuckles.
It is really post FFVII that things start to go down hill. 7 had Tiffa, a legitimately strong female character, Aris a weak "princess type" but who fit with the story well and Yuffi, who I think was supposed to come across as strong willed, but just seemed like annoying jail bait thrown into the game. In 8 the only truly strong female character is the Sorceress, with the next best thing being Quistess. 9 was a bit better as Frea was fairly cool, and Beatrix was Bad Ass, but neither Dagger or Eiko were the best examples. 10 was pretty much a washout, I think Lulu was supposed to be a "strong female type" but I couldn't take her seriously with her dress and she just came off as anoying and arrogant. 10-2 was significantly worse, and from what I have seen of 12 and 13 their hasn't actually been that much improvement. From what I have seen of 13 (the game I have the least experience with) Lightnings "strength" is completely counteracted by the other female characters.
(oh and spoilers)
Final Fantasy 6 had Terra a fairly powerful female lead (and the closest thing to a Final Fantasy game having a leading female until XIII). Yeah she had a mental breakdown, but that was closer to Bruce Banner turning into the hulk. Then their is Celis who was the 2nd in command of the imperial army that is until she had a crisis of conscious and betrayed them. She to has a potential "moment of weakness" where she attempts to comit suicide (assuming you aren't really good at catching fish) but her adoptive father died in front of her shortly after her waking up from a coma shortly after all her friends were presumably killed when they failed to stop the villain from becoming a god. All in all, I might consider suicide under those circumstances as well.
In Chrono Trigger their is the Princes Marley who is sort of tecnicaly kidnapped but not really. She is a a complete tom boy and after the main character dies she basically becomes the team leader. Luca a genius, she is smart and independant and not overtly feminin. Finally their is Ayla who is not only the chief of her village, but could smash your head it two if she wanted to.
In Secret of Mana one of the main plot points is the Female Character (you enter her name)is trying to save her boyfriend from the villain, and not the other way around. She like Marly is also a tom boy and head strong, except instead of using a cross bow her starting weapon is a pair of Iron Knuckles.
It is really post FFVII that things start to go down hill. 7 had Tiffa, a legitimately strong female character, Aris a weak "princess type" but who fit with the story well and Yuffi, who I think was supposed to come across as strong willed, but just seemed like annoying jail bait thrown into the game. In 8 the only truly strong female character is the Sorceress, with the next best thing being Quistess. 9 was a bit better as Frea was fairly cool, and Beatrix was Bad Ass, but neither Dagger or Eiko were the best examples. 10 was pretty much a washout, I think Lulu was supposed to be a "strong female type" but I couldn't take her seriously with her dress and she just came off as anoying and arrogant. 10-2 was significantly worse, and from what I have seen of 12 and 13 their hasn't actually been that much improvement. From what I have seen of 13 (the game I have the least experience with) Lightnings "strength" is completely counteracted by the other female characters.
Skyweir said:
However, now your getting away from the point of the article and the passive feminine stereotype to dismiss a counter example as "other stereotypes". Technically everyone fits in with some stereotype, there are entire sciences dedicated to this, and it's used practically for things like advertising.
If you want to get technical you could make the same arguement about the majority of male characters being stereotypical, because when you get down to it, they are too.
As far as genes "making girls do things", yes... believe it or not we aren't magical constructs of free will. Human beings are run by things like chemicals, pheremones, and electrical impulses. Your behavior is very much wired into your biology, and men and women both have traits that tend to be hardwired and which influance their behavior.
Women tend to be passive, and a lot more submissive than guys on average, all raging about it aside, because that's how nature designed them. Nurturing insticts and all of that. Guys on the other hand tend to have more aggressive and direct insticts.
"Barbie Horse Adventures" itself is not wired into one's DNA (though I suppose it could in theory become a meme burned into the primal consciousness under the right circumstances) but that kinds of things that game speaks to are.
We aren't dealing with a situation where society hands girls dolls and says "here, your a girl this is what you play with" it's just how things wind up, and yes there ARE Tomboys and such that are "aberrant" in that they don't wind up like that (and a lot has been written through the years about people whose insticts don't jibe with others of their gender), but they tend to represent exceptions rather than the rule.
To put things into perspective, it's possible to radically change someone's behavior by altering the chemicals in their body (especially the brain). Someone who doesn't realize they are being doped is going to think a lot of the changes going on are their own idea. With the right tools you can take a person and turn them into a raging maniac, though more commonly alterations to brain chemistry through drugs and such take place to try and cure mental aberrations and bring people who are crazy more in line with normal behaviors.
What's more with the right techniques people can even be programmed and altered just like a machine, because on a lot of levels that's what we are. Brainwashing, deprogramming techniques, and other things all exist and can be used on people.
Humans aren't unique here either, I mean you can see how neutering a dog (which changes the body chemistry) brings about radical behavior changes as well.
The point here is that we are driven by our biology, our thoughts, personalities, and other aspects are build around our physical forms, not vice versa. A lot of things that are your idea, are your idea because of your biological needs and what your system drove you to.
Men and women have differant chemical and pheremonal makeups, which lead to us developing differantly on a mental and instinctive level. There are all manner of aberrants of both genders, but as I said, in the end it's the tomboys and the effiminate guys that are the odd ones out.
Seriously, you should learn this kind of thing in school. Psychology, Sociology, and similar things are not new, and people have been changing behavior by manipulating their biology (via drugs and such) for many, many years now.
The article leaves out a handful of very strong female characters to make a see-through point. Kanon from WildArms2, Tifa from FF7, Selan from Lufia 2, Katt from Breath of Fire _, and while you have Collette in Tales of Symphonia, you also have a strong-headed character like Raine. Crap, you even have Cornet from Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure, who's sole purpose in the game is to beat the crap out of monsters with a like-named instrument to save a prince in distress.
If anything, the weak female to strong female ratio is pretty decent. Like in Grandia 2. You have Elena, the weak-willed singing nun, to Millena, the manipulative sorceress of DOOM. Both are main characters.
Now yes, women may have evolved (just like men) in the years. Most 1980/90's jrpgs heroes were muscle-bound men and warrior women. This gradually evolved into adventurer types of all figures. When 2000 came around, men became whiny teenage losers who you couldn't imagine carrying a sword and women became dainty glass princesses who's only purpose is to doggedly follow and support the man. Fact, when they said they were going to do a remake of Lufia 2 and make the same buff characters of the past into today's standard (as well as alter the game play), I was horrified.
Now I haven't played FF13 yet, but if women are making a comeback, I hope it's to the pre-Tifa of yesterday. Not the double-standard maiden of 300 years ago, and not Lara Croft lookalikes, but the well-toned woman who can take care of herself and isn't there to give male players an erection at every cut-scene.
If anything, the weak female to strong female ratio is pretty decent. Like in Grandia 2. You have Elena, the weak-willed singing nun, to Millena, the manipulative sorceress of DOOM. Both are main characters.
Now yes, women may have evolved (just like men) in the years. Most 1980/90's jrpgs heroes were muscle-bound men and warrior women. This gradually evolved into adventurer types of all figures. When 2000 came around, men became whiny teenage losers who you couldn't imagine carrying a sword and women became dainty glass princesses who's only purpose is to doggedly follow and support the man. Fact, when they said they were going to do a remake of Lufia 2 and make the same buff characters of the past into today's standard (as well as alter the game play), I was horrified.
Now I haven't played FF13 yet, but if women are making a comeback, I hope it's to the pre-Tifa of yesterday. Not the double-standard maiden of 300 years ago, and not Lara Croft lookalikes, but the well-toned woman who can take care of herself and isn't there to give male players an erection at every cut-scene.
It's hard to find good writing in general, and even harder to find good writing about women. I just read Emma by Jane Austen and it's probably the best that I've come across so far. It's an interesting book. The story, the actual plot, is kind of like the background story of any Socratic dialog. Stuff happens and it's almost like noise. Then Emma has a side conversation with another character about the stuff that happened, and that's the part where thoughts and philosophies are revealed.
Whose responsibility is it to write good female characters for RPGs? When there's such a dearth of good writing in the rest of life, is it even reasonable to demand that it appear out of nowhere in an RPG?
Maybe this is an offshoot of what really angers traditional feminists: New Feminism. A growing number of self-identified feminists today don't care as much about absolute equality between the sexes. Equal opportunity is more important than equal outcome, for instance. They accept that men and women have gender-based roles. They cherish traditional feminine qualities and don't care to see women who are as tough and strong as men and who fight like men.
Whose responsibility is it to write good female characters for RPGs? When there's such a dearth of good writing in the rest of life, is it even reasonable to demand that it appear out of nowhere in an RPG?
Maybe this is an offshoot of what really angers traditional feminists: New Feminism. A growing number of self-identified feminists today don't care as much about absolute equality between the sexes. Equal opportunity is more important than equal outcome, for instance. They accept that men and women have gender-based roles. They cherish traditional feminine qualities and don't care to see women who are as tough and strong as men and who fight like men.
I think the point of the article is how often the female lead is fits this stereotype. The main characters love interest having to be the damesel in distress to make the character look good. And you have to admit, happens far more often than it should. Also remember being glad that Colette wasn't the healer considering how often she wasn't playable. In games where the main healer is constantly captured its a pain in the ass.Quaidis said:
*Wall o' Text Incoming!*
Oooooh, one of my hot-button topics. (I apologize in advance to the author of the article)
SHORT VERSION:
My biggest disappointments in the article were as follows:
1) The disingenuous manner of accusing JRPGs of having poor role models for women and ignoring similar poor role models in western RPGs
2) Cherry-picking a few characters to match her thesis and ignoring the wealth of characters that don't support it
3) Trying to make it sound as if certain common character types (i.e., making a character have low self-esteem about herself) are somehow culturally 'Japanese' and not what they are: common writing techniques used by all writers in all cultures
4) Assuming that the characterization of women has gotten better because "modern women demanded it" (nah, that's too long to go into, let's just say i really disagreed with that part of her article)
LONG VERSION:
I must say I can pretty much disagree with most everything in the article. "In Japan...women were seen as inherently fragile and their 'heroism' was defined by their maidenly virtue..." Citation, please! I'm sorry, is this author talking about the Japan that exists in our world? Or is she talking about Europe? Or is she, in fact, talking about the Japan that Westerners think they know about but, in fact, don't have a clue about. For example, in the Tokugawa period, is she talking about samurai? Ainu? Peasants? Merchants? Imperial? Courtesan? Each strata of Japanese society had different expectations of their women, and absolutely NO class of women in Japan (in any era) were ever expected to let their "heroism" rest solely on their 'maidenly virtue'.
Also, her reference to the Onna Daigaku - really? One could make the same argument about the Bible being a guidebook for proper womanly behavior for the same time period in Europe, but historical study shows that although many people wrote about the Bible as an guide for proper behavior, the vast majority of the society didn't actually hold women to that ideal save through lip service. You'd think she only knows about Japanese culture from one or two books and not from actual historical study... If that's the case, then I challenge you to think about this: how accurate are Disney movies and Looney Tunes at portraying gender roles in the West? If you only read Shakespeare, what would your expectation be of women in Renaissance Padua? If you only read historical romance novels, how would you describe a typical woman of 19th century England? Did all women in the middle of the twentieth century really live and die by the Emily Post guide to etiquette?
As for her comments directly relating to video games: these are all things that Western women raised to believe in the Modern Feminist myth *want* to hear, because it feeds into what they've been told their entire lives. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Feminist movement. After all, I wouldn't be able to do what I do in my job right now if it weren't for the feminist movement in the last century.) As other people have pointed out, there have been PLENTY of strong women characters in JRPGs. In fact, in the game that the picture for the article comes (Shadow Hearts) from are *at least* two strong women characters: the French spy Margerete and the Japanese Lieutenant Colonel Kawashima. They are both strong women who have a no-nonsense attitude and a female nature - Margarete is a shameless flirt, and Kawashima is a love interest of one of the other NPCs. Also, what does the titular 'Wussy RPG girl' Alice do, after seeing her 'defender' Yuri disappear in a horrible catastrophe? She spends the next six months on her own, making her own way, fighting her own fights, while searching for him. Does she have help? Sure, as a game mechanic. But the story clearly shows her in control of the party. Does she fall into a subordinate role when her man reappears? Sure, also as a gaming mechanic. (And I haven't even addressed Koudelka, the woman who drives the main characters along their path throughout the majority of the story...)
And that's just the characters from the game she happens to mention. I could go on and on. (For example, the second game in the Shadow Hearts series has one of my favorite female characters in any JRPG, Karin, who starts out as a soldier in an army in WWII.) Others have already mentioned many characters, so I won't.
Now, as a woman myself, I notice gender roles in games/books/movies/commercials, and I see bias all over the place. For instance, if you really stop and watch modern-day TV, the worst negative stereotypes on TV (shows or commercials) are always against men, not women. Our society is just inured to it. Also, if you're going to complain about 'Wussy RPG girls', have enough intellectual honesty to admit that it goes both ways (male/female) and across all cultures of the developers (Japanese, Korean, American, European). Just because Mass Effect allows you to play male or female, don't think that represents equality of the sexes - it just means that the character is essentially gender neutral. (And, for the record, I think both God of War and Gears of War portray far more damaging sexual stereotyping of men than anything I've seen women 'subjected' to in the typical JRPG.) Anyone who thinks that Neo is a better character than Aerith, BTW, needs to pay more attention to symbolism, since they do exactly the same thing.
However, this article is inaccurate at best, relying on Western stereotypes of other cultures at worst. She makes the common mistake most Westerners do, that a sexist society MUST be a bad society, as if gender division of roles is inherently teh ebilist ebil [sic] of them all. As for wondering why these stereotypes still exist 300 years later... Ummm, I'm sorry, what version of the Western World does she live in where those exact same stereotypes are not used all the time in our own literature and media? Although that subject too big for discussion, the short answer: it ain't just Japan, baby. These stereotypes persist because of a mix of societal acceptaince, marketability, and smidgeons of truth thrown in here and there. In Japan, in the United States, in Europe: everywhere.
Ahem. Sorry to the few of you who actually read this. Had to get it out.
/rant
Oooooh, one of my hot-button topics. (I apologize in advance to the author of the article)
SHORT VERSION:
My biggest disappointments in the article were as follows:
1) The disingenuous manner of accusing JRPGs of having poor role models for women and ignoring similar poor role models in western RPGs
2) Cherry-picking a few characters to match her thesis and ignoring the wealth of characters that don't support it
3) Trying to make it sound as if certain common character types (i.e., making a character have low self-esteem about herself) are somehow culturally 'Japanese' and not what they are: common writing techniques used by all writers in all cultures
4) Assuming that the characterization of women has gotten better because "modern women demanded it" (nah, that's too long to go into, let's just say i really disagreed with that part of her article)
LONG VERSION:
I must say I can pretty much disagree with most everything in the article. "In Japan...women were seen as inherently fragile and their 'heroism' was defined by their maidenly virtue..." Citation, please! I'm sorry, is this author talking about the Japan that exists in our world? Or is she talking about Europe? Or is she, in fact, talking about the Japan that Westerners think they know about but, in fact, don't have a clue about. For example, in the Tokugawa period, is she talking about samurai? Ainu? Peasants? Merchants? Imperial? Courtesan? Each strata of Japanese society had different expectations of their women, and absolutely NO class of women in Japan (in any era) were ever expected to let their "heroism" rest solely on their 'maidenly virtue'.
Also, her reference to the Onna Daigaku - really? One could make the same argument about the Bible being a guidebook for proper womanly behavior for the same time period in Europe, but historical study shows that although many people wrote about the Bible as an guide for proper behavior, the vast majority of the society didn't actually hold women to that ideal save through lip service. You'd think she only knows about Japanese culture from one or two books and not from actual historical study... If that's the case, then I challenge you to think about this: how accurate are Disney movies and Looney Tunes at portraying gender roles in the West? If you only read Shakespeare, what would your expectation be of women in Renaissance Padua? If you only read historical romance novels, how would you describe a typical woman of 19th century England? Did all women in the middle of the twentieth century really live and die by the Emily Post guide to etiquette?
As for her comments directly relating to video games: these are all things that Western women raised to believe in the Modern Feminist myth *want* to hear, because it feeds into what they've been told their entire lives. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Feminist movement. After all, I wouldn't be able to do what I do in my job right now if it weren't for the feminist movement in the last century.) As other people have pointed out, there have been PLENTY of strong women characters in JRPGs. In fact, in the game that the picture for the article comes (Shadow Hearts) from are *at least* two strong women characters: the French spy Margerete and the Japanese Lieutenant Colonel Kawashima. They are both strong women who have a no-nonsense attitude and a female nature - Margarete is a shameless flirt, and Kawashima is a love interest of one of the other NPCs. Also, what does the titular 'Wussy RPG girl' Alice do, after seeing her 'defender' Yuri disappear in a horrible catastrophe? She spends the next six months on her own, making her own way, fighting her own fights, while searching for him. Does she have help? Sure, as a game mechanic. But the story clearly shows her in control of the party. Does she fall into a subordinate role when her man reappears? Sure, also as a gaming mechanic. (And I haven't even addressed Koudelka, the woman who drives the main characters along their path throughout the majority of the story...)
And that's just the characters from the game she happens to mention. I could go on and on. (For example, the second game in the Shadow Hearts series has one of my favorite female characters in any JRPG, Karin, who starts out as a soldier in an army in WWII.) Others have already mentioned many characters, so I won't.
Now, as a woman myself, I notice gender roles in games/books/movies/commercials, and I see bias all over the place. For instance, if you really stop and watch modern-day TV, the worst negative stereotypes on TV (shows or commercials) are always against men, not women. Our society is just inured to it. Also, if you're going to complain about 'Wussy RPG girls', have enough intellectual honesty to admit that it goes both ways (male/female) and across all cultures of the developers (Japanese, Korean, American, European). Just because Mass Effect allows you to play male or female, don't think that represents equality of the sexes - it just means that the character is essentially gender neutral. (And, for the record, I think both God of War and Gears of War portray far more damaging sexual stereotyping of men than anything I've seen women 'subjected' to in the typical JRPG.) Anyone who thinks that Neo is a better character than Aerith, BTW, needs to pay more attention to symbolism, since they do exactly the same thing.
However, this article is inaccurate at best, relying on Western stereotypes of other cultures at worst. She makes the common mistake most Westerners do, that a sexist society MUST be a bad society, as if gender division of roles is inherently teh ebilist ebil [sic] of them all. As for wondering why these stereotypes still exist 300 years later... Ummm, I'm sorry, what version of the Western World does she live in where those exact same stereotypes are not used all the time in our own literature and media? Although that subject too big for discussion, the short answer: it ain't just Japan, baby. These stereotypes persist because of a mix of societal acceptaince, marketability, and smidgeons of truth thrown in here and there. In Japan, in the United States, in Europe: everywhere.
Ahem. Sorry to the few of you who actually read this. Had to get it out.
/rant
Ah, but is it the female being stereotyped, or is the male character stereotyped first and the female then written to match the male stereotype? Remember, most video games are/were written to sell to men first, and they'll see the female character(s) as decoration, but the male character(s) will be their avatar (where the main character is not a female written solely to please libido, a la Tomb Raider)drisky said:
What about Yuna from FFX...she wasn't frail...she didn't sacrifice herself...hell she wielded her powers on her own and even saved herself when she did get kidnapped (trust me I remember that scene well it made me laugh) she also wasn't overbearingly macho or anything like that...she was endearing to the player because she was an outgoing girl pretending to meek and humble to honor her father's memory...her character developed even more when she casts aside the precepts that she once held close after she finds out they don't even matter anymore.
Lulu wasn't a cold hearted woman who kicked ass, she was reserved but emotional woman who didn't let the world tell her who she should be. She wasn't afraid to call out when the hero did something stupid.
Rikku...well okay Rikku was the typical chattery, overly outgoing, plucky, tomboyish girl but she was still pretty endearing because it fit (she was 15 or 16) she also started out seeming tough but throughout the game you see that she's just a 15 year old girl trying to get her father to notice her instead of Yuna (which was sad because he's Yuna's uncle not her father).
Lulu wasn't a cold hearted woman who kicked ass, she was reserved but emotional woman who didn't let the world tell her who she should be. She wasn't afraid to call out when the hero did something stupid.
Rikku...well okay Rikku was the typical chattery, overly outgoing, plucky, tomboyish girl but she was still pretty endearing because it fit (she was 15 or 16) she also started out seeming tough but throughout the game you see that she's just a 15 year old girl trying to get her father to notice her instead of Yuna (which was sad because he's Yuna's uncle not her father).
Tit-Mage was not the heroine. "Kidnapped 37 times over the course of the game, even getting kidnapped from other kidnappers at least once" Yuna was.The Electro Gypsy said:"Can you imagine a FFVII where Cloud consteantly suckerpunches Barret?" Yes, and it's totally hilairious.
However I do agree with you that teh ladies are a bit *too* kind sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's bad for a character. There are kind people in the world so having a person who is kind and caring does fit, especially when there are super macho people around, it's nice to have some balance to the spectrum, even if it's a bit mad.
If you want a woman char who's fairly powerful while still being a woman in persona, look at Thingy-Mah-Giggy from FFX (The Caster I cannot remembe- Lulu, she was 'ard as nails) who was essential in the party, was constructive to the other chars but still had emotion. (Also, I seem to be the only person out of everyone I've spoken to who actually liked FFX
Lulu was the Amazon who guides the protagonist through the ropes until he becomes competent and she loses all purpose in the story but stands around to give a general sense of being vaguely wise and informed. Think Rose from Legend of Dragoon. That's a different archetype.
I think you managed to hit every note except her point.Therumancer said:
Female RPG characters who are not heroines and thus have nothing to do with the article. Check.
Completely unrelated male anime archetypes with typical anti-feminist underpinning as if the guy from Love Hina has anything to do with the conversation or is comparable to the JRPG Princess archetype in any way. Check.
Western cartoons that have nothing to do with JRPGs, and even then have "Princesses" who are strong-willed and smart and who take control of their destiny, unlike JRPG Princesses. Check.