297: The Princess Problem

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Errr, well I think this is kind of pointless as an article because it's full of some rather bad and biased information. P

For starters, I think the stereotypical princess tends to be a fine character in of itself. It's definatly an extreme counterpoint to "Action Grrrl", but honestly I think all the "strong and sassy" female characters have become an even more obnoxious stereotype over the years nowadays. I think there are both good and bad aspects to the traditionally more passive "princess" and the in your face "Action Girl". If anything I think the real problem is in not having all that much between the extremes, even when you have one type of character change into another it always hits one end of the scale or another.

As far as bad information goes, I will say that Princess Peach has been around quite a bit accross a lot of differant media. She's been playable in platformers and brawl, present in cartoon shows andcomics, and other things, and has been characterized quite well at times. Super Paper Mario" is hardly some kind of exception. Truthfully the biggest complaints you could make about her being a complete non-personality through the franchise would be many years ago, and when you go back that far it should noted that no characters in those games really had much in the way of personality or backstory either. Complaining about Princess Peach is simply too dated to be relevent at this point.

Now I will get to the unpopular part of my arguement. My backround and training (Criminal Justice, Casino Security, etc...) has lead me to the opinion that if your going to start talking about dangerous, and negative stereotypes for girls, I think it's the "sassy action girl" that needs to be seriously cut down, not the more passive princess who needs to be rescued.

I say this because reality is simply that girls are less capable than guys when it comes to violence. The exceptions that exist, are just that, EXCEPTIONS. While there are cases where a girl in great shape or with massively superior training can beat up a guy, but in cases of equal time put in, they wind up behind, and guys max out much higher. In a realistic "on the street" situation with normal people, girls who think they can fight guys do little more than get themselves in trouble. A lot of the more violent rapes out there (stalk girl, corner her in a stairwell, parking garage, or other location, force her down and have sex) occur because some girl thinks she's "Xena" due to a bit of working out, and some self defense classes, and some tubby dude who happens to outweigh her by 80 pounds just flat out overpowers her and does his thing. I'm a big proponent that women need to be taught to run away from guys rather than confronting them when things get dangerous, because all too often I think the whole "girl power" thing and the people who teach it, detaches women from the reality of their situation.

Now, understand that in a battlefield situation with guns (the great equalizer) this is a bit differant, which is why I have less problem with women as soldiers. My opinion when it comes to police work or security is mixed, because the idea is generally to avoid violence, and truthfully I think the differant in physical abillity in many cases means that the contiunum of force is entirely differant, guys will be more belligerant with girls, and push come to shove it's a lot sooner she's going to need something like a gun to control a really bad situation. In that case however I believe the problem is dealt with by maintaining very high standards of physical abillity for law enforcement (which become a bit higher each year in most places, as the job gets nastier), and allowing women to be cops if they can meet those standards, as opposed to lowering the bar specifically to have women in positions of authority. If you have one of those girls who is in the physical range of your average 6' athletic guy then it's less of an issue by definition, of course it's very true that most women can't meet those standards, and it takes a lot more effort on their part to get there and maintain it (but if they can do it, more power to them,they shouldn't be excluded if they can meet the standards for safety reason).

BUT at the same time, the oppression of women was NOT caused entirely by backwards social policies. Understand technology has allowed equality. In a tech level where everything is muscle driven, civilization is hardly like it is today, and power is gained and maintained by being able to swing around th biggest and heaviest pieces of metal (axes, swords, maces), then yeah... women are going to have a SERIOUS problem in any physical capacity, barring very rare exceptions, and of course societies are defined by the masses, not the rare exceptions.

The point here is that "action grrrl" is fine when it's understood to be pure fantasy for the most part, and even more unreachable for a girl than the male counterpart (which is still pretty ridiculous when you think about it realistically). I think the problem with all the characters like that is that combined with current politics, it encourages a stupid number of women to think that they can behave that way, and actually believe that the way the world operated for so long was simply due to social ignorance as opposed to anything physical.

To be honest, I think right now society has a rather strong message that it's wrong for girls to be traditionally feminine, fairly passive, etc. They need to get right out there and be in people's faces and running up to do everything. It doesn't affect everyone, but it causes a lot of problems, and truthfully I've been of the opinion that the media that sells that has causes a lot of problems, and we need a lot more in the way of middle ground.

If I had a daughter, she might grow up to be a recognizable exception, but not wanting anything bad to happen to her, I'd be somewhat wary about her growing up thinking that it was feasible for her to fight guys successfully. I wouldn't want her to wind up being one of those girls who gets raped or something, when they could have ran away, but decided instead to do the "powerful thing" and confront the guy who did it head on. Even with professional fighters size and weight matters, and I'm sorry even if he's a slob, some dude whose half again your body mass (if not more) is not someone you should be fighting no matter who you are if you can avoid it, and when you have comparitively little girls who try and throw down with guys I'd be reluctant to fight, because of TV, or some self defense/empowerment instructor told them they could... that's a problem.

I think we actually need to see less "yes you can" in video games, with all these female warriors and martial artists, and a bit more balance. Thre can always be exceptions given the fantastic nature of video gaming, but I think ultimatly we need more of a middle ground between "Princess Peach" and "Lara Croft" and that's the real issue I'm getting at, especially when you look at the central issue of "good role models" and such which is
usually at the heart of most discussions about how lame damsels in distress are.
 

vxicepickxv

Slayer of Bothan Spies
Sep 28, 2008
3,126
0
0
I'm sorry Mario, your McGuffin is in another castle.

That's what these mostly relatively helpless princesses are all about. They're little more than plot points to justify telling stories in early video games.

I thought it even more funny in both Faria and Final Fantasy, your first quest is to rescue the princess. The result in Final Fantasy is a bridge gets built for you to carry on your quest.

In Faria, after you rescue the princess, it's revealed that you can't marry the princess, as was the reward, because you're a woman.
 

wetcoast

New member
Mar 15, 2011
1
0
0
I think the real issue is that most games continue to be designed by hetero males for hetero males. So, video games are designed from a male point of view and tend to treat females as stereotypes -- passive, objectified and one-dimensional -- a prize to be obtained. Even when the "hero" is ostensibly a woman (think of Lara Croft) s/he is more a teenage boy's idea of what a woman is than anything that resembles reality. It's disheartening that 30 years on, video games are still mired in that adolescent male rut.
 

Cool Welshy

New member
Mar 15, 2011
189
0
0
wetcoast said:
I think the real issue is that most games continue to be designed by hetero males for hetero males. So, video games are designed from a male point of view and tend to treat females as stereotypes -- passive, objectified and one-dimensional -- a prize to be obtained. Even when the "hero" is ostensibly a woman (think of Lara Croft) s/he is more a teenage boy's idea of what a woman is than anything that resembles reality. It's disheartening that 30 years on, video games are still mired in that adolescent male rut.
I absolutely agree. But maybe the roles will switch when there is more female gamers.

Actually, wasn't there a game where Mario gets kidnapped and Peach gets to save HIM? I heard it didn't do as well as the vice versa, but still.
 

Sylocat

Sci-Fi & Shakespeare
Nov 13, 2007
2,122
0
0
Great article and I agree with a lot of it, but as someone who has worked with abuse victims in the past, it makes me a little uncomfortable to hear Cinderella get reprimanded for not running away... long-time abuse victims tend to internalize their abuse and become too scared to flee. It's not rational, but welcome to the real world.

Agree that Sleeping Beauty is a twit, though. Never before have I so strongly wanted a villain to win (though it helps that I just adore Maleficent in general, and was overjoyed she got picked as the "main" villain in Kingdom Hearts). Sleeping Beauty is so generic I couldn't even remember her name; when she was called "Aurora" in Kingdom Hearts, I went, "Wait, which one is that?"

Of course, in Disney movies, the princesses are still way better than the princes... I can't remember ANY of their names.

Dastardly said:
I really think the bigger question that more games need to be asking, throughout all of this, is where the hell are the King and Queen? It could make a very compelling story, the old war-hero King going all "Liam Neeson" to rescue his daughter (who happens to be the Princess)...
This was basically the plot of Final Fight, where Mike Haggar goes to rescue his daughter (granted, he was the mayor, not the king, but still).

Also, I'm fairly certain (and I think this might actually have been confirmed in one of the RPGs) that Peach is actually the sovereign ruler of the Mushroom Kingdom, her parents are gone. I assume the chancellor (whom we met in Legend of the Seven Stars) keeps things going when she gets kidnapped.

Zelda's situation varies with the iteration, but in most of her games, when she is kidnapped, her father is either incapacitated or imprisoned as well. No word on her mother.
 

WorldCritic

New member
Apr 13, 2009
3,021
0
0
Peach holds a special place in my heart due to the fact that in Super Mario 2 and some of the RPGs she is one of the most useful characters, while in the main series she makes it her life's ambition to piss me off by always getting kidnapped and never once showing any signs of resisting. Come on you stupid *****! You have fought alongside Mario against cosmic threats and even had your own game, but you still can't put forth some effort to fight Bowser off when he tries to capture you?
 

Light 086

New member
Feb 10, 2011
302
0
0
thaluikhain said:
WanderingFool said:
HankMan said:
Well if she could save herself, then it wouldn't be much of a game for us now would it?
That certainly would make sense...
Um...play as the kidnapped princess breaking out of the castle, instead of the hero breaking in? Like The Great Escape only with more expensive clothes and probably a less awesome theme.
But there has to be a romance subplot, it's law because they said so. How would you end the story without 'they lived happily ever after'? I don't think the supposed hero would go for a girl who could emasculate him, do you?

On Topic: I agree, it has to do with the stereotyped gender roles. These stories were written far before women had rights.

Now the have female heroes, who save the prince, like In DA: Origins. Alistar can't tie his own shoes, you think he can rule a kingdom? One of the dlc's showed what happens if your character dies and he leads the wardens, the archdemon wins.
 

Arnoxthe1

Elite Member
Dec 25, 2010
3,391
2
43
I completely deny this article.

Like everyone else has said, he totally ignores sheik. Also, what about the fact that earlier in the game, she gave link the OoT and taught him the song of time. Not to mention the fact that during the end, she opened all those doors and then held Ganon AND THEN gave link some serious sword power. ALSO she gives him the light arrows. I win.

And then Midna. Well, Midna might as well have crushed this article under her feet with the small fact that she helped Link THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME. Zelda also helped some but, admittedly, not as much as she did OoT.

Peach is a whole different ballgame in the fact that nobody plays the Mario games for the story. It's all about the gameplay and Peach is just one open, fat, giant excuse for the players to have all this fun in all these weird levels. Nothing more and nothing less.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
3,829
0
0
thaluikhain said:
There's a tendency to think this weakness stems from an outdated gender stereotype - that because these stories were written so long ago, they cast women in roles both passive and powerless. You only have to look at the wicked witches and the domineering stepmothers, however, to realize that this is not the case at all. These characters hold plenty of power, and they wield it with a calculating intellect. So princesses aren't weak because they're women; they're weak because they're princesses.
So...the good women are powerless princesses, but there's no gender stereotype because the evil women have power?

Um, might be missing a fairly obvious point there.

WanderingFool said:
HankMan said:
Well if she could save herself, then it wouldn't be much of a game for us now would it?
That certainly would make sense...
Um...play as the kidnapped princess breaking out of the castle, instead of the hero breaking in? Like The Great Escape only with more expensive clothes and probably a less awesome theme.
Reminds me of the plot-lines of Kings Quest 4 and 7. (well, 7 in particular)
(Ironically, King's quest 7 is the last real kings quest game they made, because king's quest 8 was really quite different, and not all that popular, I seem to recall)

In King's Quest 4, Princess Rosella (who you play as) has to find a way to cure her father. (So in a way that's the 'object' equivalent of 'save the princess' really. Huh.)

King's quest 7 is more interesting in that you alternate playing as princess Rosella, (who has been lured away and kidnapped by her own sense of curiosity), and her mother (Queen Valanice)

Valanice follows Rosella into the portal she was kidnapped through, and you start play as Valanice trying to figure out where she's ended up, and where Rosella is.

When you get out of the first area, you switch to playing as Rosella, as she figures out why she's now a troll, who took her, and how to escape to find the castle in the sky she was actually looking for.

The story alternates between these two perspectives, and it's ultimately Rosella sorting out the problems by herself, even as her mother tries to find her.

One thing's for sure, Princess Rosella is 'weak' only in a physical sense, and seems quite capable of sorting out her own problems (which are essentially self-inflicted anyway, considering how she got 'kidnapped' in the first place.)
 

SanguineSymphony

New member
Jan 25, 2011
177
0
0
Paper Mario
Super Princess Peach
SMB 2
Super Mario RPG
Smash Bros.

Peach fighting back is an element in all of said games and probably others as well.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,148
3,890
118
Light 086 said:
But there has to be a romance subplot, it's law because they said so. How would you end the story without 'they lived happily ever after'? I don't think the supposed hero would go for a girl who could emasculate him, do you?
Hmmm...ok, then, 2 princesses both escape from the same castle, and fall in love with each other? Preferably princesses from different royal families, I guess.

BobDobolina said:
No, it's still based on an outdated gender stereotype. The stereotype is: women can be powerful and independent and therefore evil, or powerless and male-reliant and therefore virtuous.
Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.
 

VondeVon

New member
Dec 30, 2009
686
0
0
I would posit that the reason all the princesses we rescue are weak and demure, is because all the feisty and strong ones have already rescued themselves.
 

VondeVon

New member
Dec 30, 2009
686
0
0
BobDobolina said:
Just to zero in on this:

There's a tendency to think this weakness stems from an outdated gender stereotype - that because these stories were written so long ago, they cast women in roles both passive and powerless. You only have to look at the wicked witches and the domineering stepmothers, however, to realize that this is not the case at all. These characters hold plenty of power, and they wield it with a calculating intellect. So princesses aren't weak because they're women; they're weak because they're princesses.
No, it's still based on an outdated gender stereotype. The stereotype is: women can be powerful and independent and therefore evil, or powerless and male-reliant and therefore virtuous.
Too true.
 

LINCARD1000

Spooky Possums!
Jun 16, 2009
11
0
0
Once, just once I would like to rush in on my trusty stead/nucwear-wessel with gun/sword in hand to rescue a kidnapped PRINCE.

"Hey man, how YOU doin'? *leers* Join me on my mount? Heh, I said 'mount'."

*ahem* Just for a bit of diversity, y'know?
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
2,420
0
0
Sylocat said:
Great article and I agree with a lot of it, but as someone who has worked with abuse victims in the past, it makes me a little uncomfortable to hear Cinderella get reprimanded for not running away... long-time abuse victims tend to internalize their abuse and become too scared to flee. It's not rational, but welcome to the real world.
Working with similar situations from time to time, I certainly understand this real-life phenomenon that "outsiders" often see as baffling. But because I know how that works, I see more reason to go after Cinderella, not less.

Now, when I say "go after Cinderella," I obviously mean the author, or the current person using the story. I think the writer of this article probably means the same. Cinderella is a fictional character.

These sort of stories are idealized "happily ever after" tales. They're meant to show the world at its best in some way. Cinderella is meant to idealize the "good things happen to good people" idea... except it doesn't. Rather than having the story revolve around how Cinderella gradually finds the strength to leave, it's all about being rescued by magic, with no effort on her part. The message being delivered is, "Good things will happen, so just sit there and do nothing."

Cinderella's story glorifies the prince, more than anything. He is the one that rescues her. Even the all-powerful, magical fairy godmother just prepares Cinderella to go catch a prince.[/b] Once the party's done, she goes right back home. Until the prince, that is, comes searching for her.

It's a story written during a time when women were encouraged to be passive, wait for men to provide for them, and put up with whatever was happening until that time came. Surely you could see how continuing that story, unaltered, into today just isn't the best model for girls?
 

jamesworkshop

New member
Sep 3, 2008
2,683
0
0
Oh please rescue the princess is the story line of maybe two game series, practically every videogame character (male or female) in existance is far more capable than humans have any physical capability to be.
It's only a trope because of the billions of mario games
 

Mouse One

New member
Jan 22, 2011
328
0
0
jamesworkshop said:
Oh please rescue the princess is the story line of maybe two game series, practically every videogame character (male or female) in existance is far more capable than humans have any physical capability to be.
It's only a trope because of the billions of mario games
And about a billion other stories, from Brothers Grimm to Arthurian Legends to Greek myths. And hey, when you look at a story like Perseus and Andromeda, it's not bad when you think about women's (lack of) status at the time. Andromeda tells Dad to stuff it with his marriage plans, she'd rather marry the guy who saved her. On the other hand, she doesn't slip the chains and bonk the dragon on its nose, either. Still, not bad for 500 BC or so.

But now we live in more enlightened times, and these tropes are showing their age. And there's an increasingly larger female gamer population; not including casual games, it's about 40%. No, really, it is-- probably not on game forums, though. The saving princess motif has all the appeal to women that saving Rainbow Sparkle Pony has for men. Sure, good gameplay will make up for it, but it's still hard to relate to.