4 Science Mistakes Star Wars: Episode VII Needs to Fix

geizr

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On mistake #2, there is another way of viewing this that could actually make it a valid statement.

Often in General Relativity, physicists will choose what are known as natural units such that c = 1 and G = 1, c being the speed of light in vacuo and G being the gravitational constant. In natural units, both time and space have the same measure of distance. Even further, is the fact that when talking of trajectories along space-time, one no longer speaks separately of the time it took and the distance traversed. Instead, one only speaks of the proper time (for time-like trajectories with velocities less than the speed of light) or proper distance (for space-like trajectories moving faster than light) measured along the curve one takes through space-time. Both these measures, in natural units, have units of distance, which then one would convert by appropriate multiplications of c and G to get the normal physical units of time and space separately to which we are accustomed. There are special trajectories that have a proper time and proper distance measure of zero. These are the trajectories traversed by light itself.

Different trajectories would have different measures of proper time or proper distance, and would require different velocities at points along the trajectory in order to maintain the trajectory. The measurement of the proper time/distance along the trajectory is obtained by integrating the metric along the trajectory. In normal flat space-time, with normal physical units, the metric would look like this:

ds^2 = -c^2*dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2

and in natural units, like this:

ds^2 = -dT^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2

In a non-flat space-time, as occurs in the presence of a gravitating body, like, say, a black hole, the metric would be very different, and there would be multiplying functions in front of the square-differentials for each of the coordinates, like so:

ds^2 = -F(T, x, y, z) dT^2 + H(T, x, y, z) dx^2 + K(T, x, y, z) dy^2 + L(T, x, y, z) dz^2

or, even more generally

ds^2 = g_{u,v}*dx^{u}*dx^{v}

where g_{u,v} are the components of the metric and dx^{u} is a coordinate differential dT, dx, dy, or dz. Each of the metric components g_{u,v} can be functions of the coordinates, as prescribed by Einstein's equation,

R_{u,v} - 1/2*g_{u,v}*R = 8*pi*G*T_{u,v}

where R_{u,v} is the Ricci tensor and R the Ricci scalar, both of which define the local space-time curvature. G is the gravitational constant, and T_{u,v} is the stress-energy tensor that defines the distribution of mass-energy.

In general when trying to solve for trajectories through space-time, one finds what is called the geodesic path. This is the path that traverses the shortest distance of proper time/distance through the space time. According to General Relativity, the most natural and easiest path for an object to follow through space-time would be the geodesic. Any other path would require applying a real force (here's a shocker: gravity, in General Relativity, is NOT a force at all) to resist the object's tendency to follow a geodesic path from wherever it happens to be. For a flat space-time, the geodesic is to proceed in a constant direction at a constant velocity. In a gravity environment, the geodesic is to accelerate toward the gravitating body (I think you can guess where this is going!).

In an environment such as the Maw, the space-time would be severely warped and contorted, and the geodesic paths would very likely be ones that take you straight into one of the black holes. However, if you can sidle up close to a geodesic and just barely miss being on it, you can traverse the region along a near optimal path without falling into one of the black holes. The closer you are to this optimal path, the shorter your proper time/distance measure will be along the trajectory you follow, approaching the proper time/distance measure along the geodesic itself. Now, if you are measuring the proper time/distance along the trajectory you follow in natural units, then you could easily speak of the distance (i.e. parsecs) traveled along that trajectory, and you want to have a smaller number to be more impressive because it means you got the closest to the geodesic without being on it such to fall into a black hole.

Now, granted, Lucas likely was not thinking of all this; he likely didn't have much known of GR at all other than some dude named Einstein came up with it and E=mc^2. He may have had the whole curvature thing, too, but it's very unlikely he understood the gritty mathematical details. In fact, it is very likely Lucas simply heard the word "parsec" used at some point in the context of outer space and just assumed it was some measure of time because it has "sec" in it (sec = seconds). Even so, it turns out, by lucky accident, that the way he ends up talking about doing 12 parsecs for the Kessel run can, in fact, be valid, but only from a certain point of view.

ADDENDUM: Realized I forgot to make the distinction of proper time and proper distance more clear when working in normal physical units. In normal physical units, proper time and proper distance are related by

ds^2 = -c^2*dK^2

where dK is the proper time differential. In natural units, it would just look like

ds^2 = -dK^2

and time and space become interchangeable as having the same units. So, even Lucas' notation in the novelization of "standard time units" would still be valid under this scheme as long as time-like trajectories are followed through the space-time. For space-like trajectories, one can only validate the statement under natural units.

Of course, we all know what Lucas really meant and the fact he didn't have a clue what he was talking about. But, it still sounds cool, if you're willing to squint your eyes really hard through GR lenses.
 

Ishigami

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I disagree on #3.
Realistic physics in space combat would make it hard to comprehend as the most effective way to evade fire in such a scenario is randomly executed erratic movement.
It would result in sort of a Michael Bay action aesthetic with too much stuff happening at the same time resulting in sensory overload.
The space combat in the prequel trilogy was ass but not because of the ?wrong? physics. It was ass because we didn?t care about the characters and already knew they would be fine anyway.
 

Groverfield

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Gordon_4 said:
Babylon 5 managed it with the Starfury.
Speaking as one who dismissed Babylon 5 within the first 5 minutes of the show because I already watched reboot and it wasn't all that good even when I was a kid, I have no frame of reference to speak on as far as how to compare the two series's technological capabilities and styles. With a quick trip to the wiki, all I see is an X-wing given to X-zibit. It gives no omnidirectional propulsion for strafing just a tight cornering radius, which makes it sound more like a Dramamine sink than a revolutionary weapon. Also it still has wings for space combat, and is a fighter that still relies on turning for movement, which means that it would still bank on turns. Yes, it has thrusters everywhere, but they're maneuvering, not propulsion for sustained movement or omni-directional non-jet combat. What's worse, with proper engine placement and getting rid of stupid space-wings, you could probably use half of the thrusters for twice the maneuverability in a spheroid design, but you'd still need more control than a humanoid body could manually give.
 

Chairman Miaow

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It's strange seeing so many people talk about the EU as canon. Wasn't it all declared non-canon?
Groverfield said:
Gordon_4 said:
Babylon 5 managed it with the Starfury.
Speaking as one who dismissed Babylon 5 within the first 5 minutes of the show because I already watched reboot and it wasn't all that good even when I was a kid, I have no frame of reference to speak on as far as how to compare the two series's technological capabilities and styles. With a quick trip to the wiki, all I see is an X-wing given to X-zibit. It gives no omnidirectional propulsion for strafing just a tight cornering radius, which makes it sound more like a Dramamine sink than a revolutionary weapon. Also it still has wings for space combat, and is a fighter that still relies on turning for movement, which means that it would still bank on turns. Yes, it has thrusters everywhere, but they're maneuvering, not propulsion for sustained movement or omni-directional non-jet combat. What's worse, with proper engine placement and getting rid of stupid space-wings, you could probably use half of the thrusters for twice the maneuverability in a spheroid design, but you'd still need more control than a humanoid body could manually give.
There are moments in B5 where the Starfuries do exactly what is described in point 2, continuing their initial trajectory but completely changing their facing.
 

Hochmeister

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You're kinda missing the whole point of Star Wars with these. It's a space opera, not sci-fi.

#4: Not really necessary. Different g planets could be a cheap gimmick for an exotic locale, but wouldn't really add anything to the story or setting. Now what they do need to do is treat gravity more realistically; for example that one scene in the beginning Eposode 3 where everything in the ship starts falling down while it's in orbit is painful to watch.

#3: No. Combat in Star Wars is a reinterpretation of WW2 combat IN SPACE! And that's why it's awesome. Again, space opera, not hard sci-fi. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

#2: This is rather nit-picky as the parsec instance is the only case of misused jargon I can think of in Star Wars. Naturally JJ should avoid using jargon buzzwords (such as quantum computers, nanotubes, nanomachines, mutant neutrinos, etc...) to describe Star Wars tech; as long as the people in universe feel comfortable with it and they aren't pulling convenient tech out of their rear it's perfectly fine for everything to be black boxes... which they currently are.

#1: Agreed, as I noted above trying to explain how everything works in the Star Wars universe would end badly. It's not about the tech, it's about the characters.
 

Quellist

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I think this thread needs a serious dose of the MST3K Mantra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ugebzq3juE

Because it looks to me like its pretty much going to dissolve into a flamewar before long. Does Star Wars really need this degree of analysis?
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Groverfield said:
Gordon_4 said:
Babylon 5 managed it with the Starfury.
Speaking as one who dismissed Babylon 5 within the first 5 minutes of the show because I already watched reboot and it wasn't all that good even when I was a kid, I have no frame of reference to speak on as far as how to compare the two series's technological capabilities and styles. With a quick trip to the wiki, all I see is an X-wing given to X-zibit. It gives no omnidirectional propulsion for strafing just a tight cornering radius, which makes it sound more like a Dramamine sink than a revolutionary weapon. Also it still has wings for space combat, and is a fighter that still relies on turning for movement, which means that it would still bank on turns. Yes, it has thrusters everywhere, but they're maneuvering, not propulsion for sustained movement or omni-directional non-jet combat. What's worse, with proper engine placement and getting rid of stupid space-wings, you could probably use half of the thrusters for twice the maneuverability in a spheroid design, but you'd still need more control than a humanoid body could manually give.
The Starfuries behave exactly as point 2 describes several times. Yes they have wings, its where the missiles get mounted and admittedly gives them a bit of style - but I'll say this: if I had to pick a one man fighter craft to take into space, it would be the Starfury.
 

ExileNZ

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Rhykker said:
ExileNZ said:
Rhykker said:
4 Science Mistakes Star Wars: Episode VII Needs to Fix

Sometimes, a science faux pas takes away from a movie. Here are four science mistakes that Star Wars has made in the past that Episode VII can either address or avoid.

Read Full Article
I'm afraid I have to take issue with your sandwich comment. I don't know about you, but for long-distance travel which I have to do myself (driving as opposed to, say, flying), I'm perfectly capable of measuring the time required in sandwiches.Phrases like "This is a 3-sandwich trip" or "Great, I got here in only two sandwiches" are commonplace in my household. This expands into larger units too, because any trip that requires more than 3 or 4 sandwiches will also require water and probably an ice pack, so anything above four sandwiches is a picnic basket (or hamper, or chilly bin, or whatever your local jargon dictates).
You are my favorite person.

I want to see a show in which they measure everything with regards to food intake.

"How much time before the bomb goes off?"

"We've only got two sandwiches!"
By my calculations, that would make it about 2-3 hours. Unless it's at mealtime, in which case 2 sandwiches is only about five minutes - makes for a much more dramatic countdown.
 

darkstarangel

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If you're going to knit-pick the scientific violations in star wars then you're severely limiting yourself by only picking four. However, these could easily be cleared up if they were explained in the films (not to give George Lucas anymore bad ideas for the original series).

1. Who is to say the other planets dont have different gravities. What if most of the inhabited planets do have the same gravity, especially the colonised planets? People aren't going to settle on a planet they find difficult to move in.

2.The ships propulsion could be modified to emulate atmospheric flight in space for the benefit of the pilots. Swivelling your plane can be doable but it would also be disorientating to do in space where every direction is empty space with stars.

3. If I recall correctly, the milennium falcon travels through hyperspace. Which is the means of travelling to distant planets in such short amounts of time. If travelling at a constant distance & time in normal space , for example the kessel run, than a ships speed can be determined by it's distance travelled in hyper space. As in, the less distance travelled in hyperspace to reach it's destination in normal space than the faster the ship. Even though parsecs are still pretty far.

4. I used to hate midi-chlorians, spelled medichlorians in the books, because I thought it was the force at first but it kind of makes sense to have something that can connect sentient beings to the force that not everyone has. But the article was right, it does kind of kill the mystery of it all.
Still, I think it would make a good a twist to make it so that the medichlorians dont inhabit people to connect them to the force but rather they're symbiotes that feed off, or are drawn to the force. And they inhabit the cells of people connected to the force to feed off the force powers. This would explain why the medichlorian count determines the strength in the force of the individual. The stronger the force the more they grow. And the jedi order can be divided on this doctrinal issue which can be a subject of debate among jedi scholars. That would definately add character to the star wars universe anyway.
 

Rastrelly

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No one needs to retcon midichlorians. The only thing that needs to be retconned is actually the connection between them and the Force. What do I mean? Current system: Force Midichlorians). There are creatures (in SW universe) able to feel or even use the Force. Midichlorians can be one of them. They can be some sort of symbiotic microorganisms co-existing with other organisms who have a good connection to the force. Thus midichlorians are still there, they still can be used to "measure" the Force, but they are becoming just a symptom, not a reason.

Edit: Noted the comment above. Hivemind?
 

thedoclc

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Rhykker said:
TiberiusEsuriens said:
*Snip*
Rhykker said:
That's well-put, and when fully explained, it's no longer a mistake. I feel as though the Expanded Universe really addresses a lot of the "issues" with Star Wars, but unfortunately, what's seen in the movies is what's seen in the movies. The audience can't possibly intuit that explanation given what little context was presented.

So in sum... The EU did a great job at making Han's line make sense. But it's still a mistake in the movie, because it doesn't come across like that. I'd be cool with Han giving the explanation you outlined in Ep 7 :)
Respectfully, the EU is a clumsy retcon compared to what some commentaries claim is the original intention of the scene. EU fans parse the the words in the scene but do not watch the actors and their body language.

When Han leans in and brags about the ship, we cut to Obi-Wan leaning back and Sir Alec Guinness giving an exasperated look. We then cut back to Harrison Ford during an awkward pause. If we watch the body language of these two men and assume they are skilled actors (not a stretch for either of them!), it becomes clear.

Han was blowing smoke and misspoke. Obi-Wan saw right through it. Han realized his mistake and that Obi-Wan caught him. Obi-Wan needs Han, and Luke is still naively sitting at the table, so both just let the awkward moment pass. Han's later annoyance with "that old fossil" makes more sense, since his ego was bruised at that point.

In one fell swoop, the original scene establishes that Han is a lying, shady scoundrel and that Obi-Wan is far more knowledgeable than he is letting on. Later, EU writers retconned what is a brilliant moment of characterization. They were too in love with Han to realize what made Han cool was his fallibility; he screwed up, got into antics, and got out of them with luck and courage. In short, because Han made mistakes, or displayed occasionally foolish bravado, he was interesting.
 

Hunter Creed

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Rhykker said:
4 Science Mistakes Star Wars: Episode VII Needs to Fix

Sometimes, a science faux pas takes away from a movie. Here are four science mistakes that Star Wars has made in the past that Episode VII can either address or avoid.

Read Full Article
In regards to #1, I think that is to allow a diverse cast of creatures and characters. Vsauce has a video talking about how tall can humans get. Michael points out that Humans born on Mars (which as you point out has only a third of Earth's gravity) would allow them to grow a few inches taller. But alas, the downside would be that they would grow in such an environment that they would never be able to ever visit Earth. As their bones and muscles wouldn't grow to be as strong as people born under Earth's gravity.

If Star Wars was to follow reality, then if you were born on, say, Coruscant, chances are you wouldn't be able to do much traveling. In Star Wars, characters are constantly changing locations, whether it's because they feel like traveling to Zegema Beach or because the (second) Death Star is orbiting the planet of Endor and the only way to destroy the shield generator is to land on the planet itself.

If SW followed reality, characters probably would be stuck on the planet they grew up on. Sure they might be able to go to a planet with a lower gravity, but then their children might end up stuck there. Then you also have the problem where if they were gone for too long, their bones would lose density and they would have trouble returning home.

If we were to start following different gravities, then why would we keep ignoring things like (as you mentioned) bone density loss on extended periods in 0 gravity or on planets with lower gravity. It would make harder (if not impossible) for characters to move to other planets.

Hunter C. Creed