On the Ball: Out Of Control

[Jordan Deam]

On the Ball: Out Of Control

StarCraft II needs to come out for the iPad. Seriously.

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[Outright Villainy]

It's the main reason the wii works for so many people really, people who are new to games need completely intuitive controls or they'll be put off them. Not that they should completely supplant them or anything, as you said, complex controls are what allow competitive play to exist. Motion controls and touch screen are certainly a good introduction to games though.

 

[Jared]

Sounds like most RTS's.

But, once you get it down, you can pretty much steam forward as long as obstancles dont come in your way...Like, unprecitable players.

But, as for iPad and RTS...that would prolly work, be pretty cool for a touch screen too. be like a Hi-Tech Military strategist!

 

[randommaster]

I feel your pain, which is why I usually go for the long game in RTSs. the lower APS I can get away with, the better.

 

[Therumancer]

You do realize Jordan that Starcraft is a giant cheat/mod fest right? Even in beta I'm pretty sure people are using it to fine tune their associative software, especially seeing as the mechanics have stayed roughly the same.

The reason why most veteran Starcraft players are so much faster than you in the execution is that they don't use the same interface that came with the game, rather they use side programs to automate or simplify entire processes for them. Especially in asian leagues this is viewed as part of the game, and isn't really considered to be "cheating" unless you invoke something like a god mode or whatever.

I point this out because of old jokes (some bordering on memes) about how "You don't really think an American kid can beat a Korean kid at Star Craft do you?" with the punchline being a view of two computer screens side by side with flags above them. The American one playing regular Starcraft "out of the box" and the other one so heavily modded as to be barely recognizable. Basically differant ideas on what playing entails, and something I incidently mentioned int he whole "dude stabbed in head for cheating at Counterstrike" article/thread
as part of my suspician that it was actually over gambling on the game, rather than cheating itself.

So basically, if your going to play Starcraft competitively online, and especially in a world circuit, you should at least start looking for mods and learn how to install/run them. Sure some people will gripe at you about it, but most of those people use mods themselves ironically. Chances are if your REALLY playing as well as you say using the default game, your probably "bionic" and will be a real killer when you start playing like most of the other "hardcore" players do.

Incidently all of this is one of the reasons why I don't play RTS games online, and also why I more or less retired from WoW PVP (I simply got tired of mod wars... I still use mods for raiding but it's far less intrusive and time consuming). I think modding blows chips, but really unless Blizzard finds a way to police it, which they have so far had no interest in, that's pretty much what your looking at. Heck, the way WoW is designed they pretty much encourage people to do it, having the directories set up specifically so you can dump mods into the game. Given Blizzard's attitudes so far I can almost guarantee Starcraft 2 is going to be pretty mod friendly.

Such are my thoughts.

 

[John Funk]

You do realize Jordan that Starcraft is a giant cheat/mod fest right? Even in beta I'm pretty sure people are using it to fine tune their associative software, especially seeing as the mechanics have stayed roughly the same.

The reason why most veteran Starcraft players are so much faster than you in the execution is that they don't use the same interface that came with the game, rather they use side programs to automate or simplify entire processes for them. Especially in asian leagues this is viewed as part of the game, and isn't really considered to be "cheating" unless you invoke something like a god mode or whatever.

I point this out because of old jokes (some bordering on memes) about how "You don't really think an American kid can beat a Korean kid at Star Craft do you?" with the punchline being a view of two computer screens side by side with flags above them. The American one playing regular Starcraft "out of the box" and the other one so heavily modded as to be barely recognizable. Basically differant ideas on what playing entails, and something I incidently mentioned int he whole "dude stabbed in head for cheating at Counterstrike" article/thread
as part of my suspician that it was actually over gambling on the game, rather than cheating itself.

So basically, if your going to play Starcraft competitively online, and especially in a world circuit, you should at least start looking for mods and learn how to install/run them. Sure some people will gripe at you about it, but most of those people use mods themselves ironically. Chances are if your REALLY playing as well as you say using the default game, your probably "bionic" and will be a real killer when you start playing like most of the other "hardcore" players do.

Incidently all of this is one of the reasons why I don't play RTS games online, and also why I more or less retired from WoW PVP (I simply got tired of mod wars... I still use mods for raiding but it's far less intrusive and time consuming). I think modding blows chips, but really unless Blizzard finds a way to police it, which they have so far had no interest in, that's pretty much what your looking at. Heck, the way WoW is designed they pretty much encourage people to do it, having the directories set up specifically so you can dump mods into the game. Given Blizzard's attitudes so far I can almost guarantee Starcraft 2 is going to be pretty mod friendly.

Such are my thoughts.

Uh.

I haven't seen a single mod online, especially because the game is being patched so frequently. Furthermore, given Blizzard's design of SC2 as an e-sport and emphasis on making the game as even as possible, I highly doubt this will be even remotely the case.

Especially as, given how the game will be tied to your account, cheating (and being caught) means you need to buy another copy. No just making a different account.

 

[dochmbi]

If you've ever watched live pro starcraft, they occasionally show the players in the booths, and you can see their fingers dancing over the keyboard at a very high pace, so I doubt that the mods have such a huge impact.

 

[dochmbi]

Incidentally, Therumancer, this is an obvious april fools joke:

http://www.sc2promod.com/

 

[Evil the White]

Hmm. One way that I thought was quite a good attempt by developers to fix this problem was the headset interface in Tom Clancy's Endar. Although it was a little broken at times, and sometimes unresponsive, it generally worked. The only problem I had was that it was hard to keep track of all the different unit numbers (the enemy's, not mine), especially as they went in and out of the fog. The easy way to solve this was to have a command vehicle, do it was eaier to keep tabs on all the different units, but that meant you lost a unit to keep an eye on your opponent.

 

[Valiance]

I feel your pain, which is why I usually go for the long game in RTSs. the lower APS I can get away with, the better.

Actually, in longer games, it's even more important to maintain a high APM for endurance.

There have been games where I have the early advantage and then tire myself out and nearly lose to simple plays because my arm hurts...

Each time I drag my cursor around a group of units and accidentally send a pair of SCVs into the fray, or missclick and end up ordering my marauders to fire at the Zerg lair rather than the group of Roaches whittling away at me from in front of it, I can't help but feel the controls are working against me.

I hate this feeling too, and it's gotten to the point where I just hardly ever rightclick to attack, ever. I just hit "A" and then leftclick on the ground next to the thing I want them to attack. It's messy but it's easier sometimes, especially when just advancing in a giant army. Much better than accidentally telling the troops to "move" towards machine-gun fire.

And shift-clicking the wire-frame of the SCV will deselect it, as will shift-clicking the SCV itself will remove him from the group selected.

Sadly, I know it's annoying and difficult to do. It's screwed me too. I mean, I remember one match where probably ~40 of my marines and ~6 medics got killed by 3 lurkers because I didn't hotkey my comsat or I forgot the hotkey to scan and they just walked over a bunch of burrowed ones. Believe me, it was a huge momentum swing, and no one likes losing that way.

...Anyway.

I really liked your article, and it is true - most of these games just move too fast and the controls are too awkward or the unit pathfinding is too terrible for most people to enjoy it or even compete at all.

However, I don't think a touch-screen would help much. What happens if I accidentally move my finger over a bit too far and click the lair instead of the enemy next to it? What happens when the box I draw is a little too big or too small and I miss units I wanted included?

I think many of the same issues would exist.

What we really need is a different in-game way of selecting units, like the zoom-out-grab-group thing that SupCom2 has, and the whip unit selection tool. Which I think would both work even better with a touch screen. But a default click-and-drag interface might not work so well with a touch screen, is all I mean to say.

 

[randommaster]

I feel your pain, which is why I usually go for the long game in RTSs. the lower APS I can get away with, the better.

Actually, in longer games, it's even more important to maintain a high APM for endurance.

There have been games where I have the early advantage and then tire myself out and nearly lose to simple plays because my arm hurts...

I know you have to keep a steady APM, but since my APM is pretty low, I go for longer games where I can out-resource my opponent. You don't need high APM when you've got high-end units being produced at twice the rate of whatever your opponent is making.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

The Future is now Mr. Deam

Obviously the UI is under construction but the potential is there and considering how serious most strategy players are peripherals like this could easily make it onto the market

Speaking of Endwar, I found the voice system incredibly tedious to use. What I really want is to use voice commands to initiate small commands like using a buff or deploying an attack. Movement is far too awkward for vocal commands. Plus how am I meant to command with a mouth full of pizza?

 

[Ne1butme]

You do realize Jordan that Starcraft is a giant cheat/mod fest right? Even in beta I'm pretty sure people are using it to fine tune their associative software, especially seeing as the mechanics have stayed roughly the same.

The reason why most veteran Starcraft players are so much faster than you in the execution is that they don't use the same interface that came with the game, rather they use side programs to automate or simplify entire processes for them. Especially in asian leagues this is viewed as part of the game, and isn't really considered to be "cheating" unless you invoke something like a god mode or whatever.

I point this out because of old jokes (some bordering on memes) about how "You don't really think an American kid can beat a Korean kid at Star Craft do you?" with the punchline being a view of two computer screens side by side with flags above them. The American one playing regular Starcraft "out of the box" and the other one so heavily modded as to be barely recognizable. Basically differant ideas on what playing entails, and something I incidently mentioned int he whole "dude stabbed in head for cheating at Counterstrike" article/thread
as part of my suspician that it was actually over gambling on the game, rather than cheating itself.

So basically, if your going to play Starcraft competitively online, and especially in a world circuit, you should at least start looking for mods and learn how to install/run them. Sure some people will gripe at you about it, but most of those people use mods themselves ironically. Chances are if your REALLY playing as well as you say using the default game, your probably "bionic" and will be a real killer when you start playing like most of the other "hardcore" players do.

Incidently all of this is one of the reasons why I don't play RTS games online, and also why I more or less retired from WoW PVP (I simply got tired of mod wars... I still use mods for raiding but it's far less intrusive and time consuming). I think modding blows chips, but really unless Blizzard finds a way to police it, which they have so far had no interest in, that's pretty much what your looking at. Heck, the way WoW is designed they pretty much encourage people to do it, having the directories set up specifically so you can dump mods into the game. Given Blizzard's attitudes so far I can almost guarantee Starcraft 2 is going to be pretty mod friendly.

Such are my thoughts.

Uh.

I haven't seen a single mod online, especially because the game is being patched so frequently. Furthermore, given Blizzard's design of SC2 as an e-sport and emphasis on making the game as even as possible, I highly doubt this will be even remotely the case.

Especially as, given how the game will be tied to your account, cheating (and being caught) means you need to buy another copy. No just making a different account.

Yeah, I'm not sure what he's talking about either. I've been watching the Korean Proleague and i've never seen any 3rd party addons or timers to make it easier. No scripts or batch files. While maphacks do exist, they get broken every patch and i've noticed that players that use them generally suck at making decisions with their new-found knowledge.

Copper league forever!!!!

 

[microhive]

I'm not having these issues since I've been playing RTS for 10 years and I am pretty good at multitasking. Also I am able to write the entire English alphabet in 2,4 seconds so I got some APM.

Silver league ftw!

 

[Guyovick]

I'm not sure the multi-touch surface control scheme would be simpler. You would still have to issue the same commands, the only change would be how. It basically replaces learning button clicks with learning gestures. Since not all commands have an intuitive gesture (what gesture would you make to "quickly return the view to your base") you either have to leave out commands or learn unintuitive gestures, which may be worse than learning button presses.

unrelated grammar nazi post: (feel free to ignore the rest of this post)

against opponents who grok the game on a level that you probably never will

I just got done reading Stranger in a Strange Land and your use of the word grok stands out as incorrect.

Grok means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed...

There aren't any levels of grokking, it is a binary state of mind. You could replace your use of the word 'grok' with 'know' and you would be okay.

 

[samsonguy920]

The Future is now Mr. Deam

Obviously the UI is under construction but the potential is there and considering how serious most strategy players are peripherals like this could easily make it onto the market

Speaking of Endwar, I found the voice system incredibly tedious to use. What I really want is to use voice commands to initiate small commands like using a buff or deploying an attack. Movement is far too awkward for vocal commands. Plus how am I meant to command with a mouth full of pizza?

Not to mention what happens to the surface when you do an ARGH! or laugh. While eating pizza.

Anyway, this is what I had in mind, definitely a lot easier to use than that tiny iPad for an RTS. Microsoft Surface would have quite the use as well.

 

[Nick Holmgren]

I 100% disagree. I didn't know how to do hot keys in SC1 but once I found out how they work in SC2 while playing at a friend's they feel vary intuitive. I put my Production on like 5, m army on 1, some caster on 2, my important caster on 3. if I need to split my army the 2 detachment goes on 4. 5-9 are for production though I never use much past 7. Really it took 2 minutes to pick up. Okay mastering it takes longer but then so does everything. Did you become a Super Mario Bros. speed runner in a day? Thats what the top gold and most of the platinum league are like.

 

[Nick Holmgren]

Oh and that would slow micro so badly. Star-craft is meant to be able to be competitive yet more accessible then SC1. If it was SC1 you would be in the near bottom of the only ladder with no one even close to your skill level to play.

 

[geldonyetich]

I don't see anything wrong with putting Star Craft on the iPad so long as it doesn't completely chug down the platform.