Can The Dark Knight Rises Rise Above Its Predecessors?
Does this town deserve a better class of criminal?
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Does this town deserve a better class of criminal?
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Can The Dark Knight Rises Rise Above Its Predecessors?
- Thread starter Elizabeth Grunewald
- Start date
Short answer: Yes, obviously.
Long answer: I predicted Catwoman long ago, because she'd give the film an interesting angle + we needed a new love interest following Rachel's death.
Plus Anne Hathaway got nominated for an Oscar a couple of years ago. Bear that in mind while you're slagging her off.
Bane, I'm not so sure. I never saw his episode in The Batman (my only previous experience with the mythos) and even then I think he was portrayed as dumb muscle. As Hardy's work with Nolan previously was in Inception (aka everyone on here's favourite film of 2010, it seems) I think we can have confidence in his portrayal.
Also, a fairly simple question: has Nolan let us down yet?
Long answer: I predicted Catwoman long ago, because she'd give the film an interesting angle + we needed a new love interest following Rachel's death.
Plus Anne Hathaway got nominated for an Oscar a couple of years ago. Bear that in mind while you're slagging her off.
Bane, I'm not so sure. I never saw his episode in The Batman (my only previous experience with the mythos) and even then I think he was portrayed as dumb muscle. As Hardy's work with Nolan previously was in Inception (aka everyone on here's favourite film of 2010, it seems) I think we can have confidence in his portrayal.
Also, a fairly simple question: has Nolan let us down yet?
Batman Begins bored me. It's a tired re-hash in the name of REALISM, that that hack Frank Miller started without realising certain simple rules.
Superheroes aren't realistic.
There's been books written about how Bats can't do what he wants to, Spidey would tear his arm off, and Lois Lane definitely doesn't want Superman to have his wicked way with her.
But it's the 21st century and everything has to be real. REAL Transformers, REAL Batman, REAL Spiderman 3 and they all were crap.
Until The Dark Knight.
See, no-one expected this to be good. Even the Bat-fans weren't expecting it to be THIS good, because - for once - they caught the ball.
It's not about Batman. It never was. Nor is about Wolverine, Spiderman or Superman.
It's about Bruce vs Evil Bruce. Or Power vs. Responsibility. Or Saving the World vs. Dooming the World. or Wolverine vs. Wolverine...
Many a time, Hollywood relies on it's panel of movie-goers to judge how to make a film, and slaps in someone who knows about it to get the details right; but they forget the biggest detail of all.
It's not about the Heroes. The Heroes are some sort of Campbell/Freud/Jungian amalgam that lets the Hero show he's a Hero, and the Villain show he's a Villain.
And in Batman versus the Joker, it's always been Bats vs. Anti-Bats : which they got.
Now this time, you've already got two plots going.
Catwoman : Female Batman gone bad - Love Arc.
Bane: The man who broke the Bat - Hate Arc.
The only way this can resolve successfully (imho) is if the two villains go at each other to get Bats. One of them is going to have to kill the other one in front of Bats. Preferably in a twisted mirror of his parent's death.
But what's really going to happen?
Prediction: Bane is all HERP-DERPHULKBANE SMASH and Catwoman makes lots of jokes about her pussy before being offed so Bats can do the "KHAAAAAN" moment.
If it's any different, I will be more than pleased; but I honestly don't think that half the writers even understand what a superhero is.
Superheroes cannot be realistic. Because that just makes them heroes. And heroes don't need to dress up.
Superheroes aren't realistic.
There's been books written about how Bats can't do what he wants to, Spidey would tear his arm off, and Lois Lane definitely doesn't want Superman to have his wicked way with her.
But it's the 21st century and everything has to be real. REAL Transformers, REAL Batman, REAL Spiderman 3 and they all were crap.
Until The Dark Knight.
See, no-one expected this to be good. Even the Bat-fans weren't expecting it to be THIS good, because - for once - they caught the ball.
It's not about Batman. It never was. Nor is about Wolverine, Spiderman or Superman.
It's about Bruce vs Evil Bruce. Or Power vs. Responsibility. Or Saving the World vs. Dooming the World. or Wolverine vs. Wolverine...
Many a time, Hollywood relies on it's panel of movie-goers to judge how to make a film, and slaps in someone who knows about it to get the details right; but they forget the biggest detail of all.
It's not about the Heroes. The Heroes are some sort of Campbell/Freud/Jungian amalgam that lets the Hero show he's a Hero, and the Villain show he's a Villain.
And in Batman versus the Joker, it's always been Bats vs. Anti-Bats : which they got.
Now this time, you've already got two plots going.
Catwoman : Female Batman gone bad - Love Arc.
Bane: The man who broke the Bat - Hate Arc.
The only way this can resolve successfully (imho) is if the two villains go at each other to get Bats. One of them is going to have to kill the other one in front of Bats. Preferably in a twisted mirror of his parent's death.
But what's really going to happen?
Prediction: Bane is all HERP-DERP
If it's any different, I will be more than pleased; but I honestly don't think that half the writers even understand what a superhero is.
Superheroes cannot be realistic. Because that just makes them heroes. And heroes don't need to dress up.
Doubt it'll receive as much praise as the Dark Knight. I hate to say it, but I doubt Dark Knight wouldn't have been so praised if Ledger didn't die.
Yes, the movie was great, yes it did deserve the praise, yes Ledger was great, but if he didn't die, it wouldn't have gotten all the "Ledger's final act" hype that helped propel it into the spotlight.
Still was a good movie though. Hopefully this one's good as well.
Yes, the movie was great, yes it did deserve the praise, yes Ledger was great, but if he didn't die, it wouldn't have gotten all the "Ledger's final act" hype that helped propel it into the spotlight.
Still was a good movie though. Hopefully this one's good as well.
Bane is the villain who rendered Batman paraplegic after strategically wearing him out by busting out every inmate from Arkham. Catwoman shot Black Mask to the face.
Nolan has stayed true to the comics and delivered that and more. Hardy and Hathaway are unpredictable choices but really, who saw Heath Ledger as the Joker coming? Noone. We all know how that turned out.
Nolan has stayed true to the comics and delivered that and more. Hardy and Hathaway are unpredictable choices but really, who saw Heath Ledger as the Joker coming? Noone. We all know how that turned out.
Bane is usually presented as either the stupid musclehead, or a intelectual. I can never quite seem to get why, but it seems only some writers like him better when he's smart (but not as smart as Batman) and really strong. It kinda makes him a more dangerous enemy.tomtom94 said:
From my point of view, the Batman has always been a kind of bland character. He's always a moody rich misunderstood playboy. Begins bucked that trend a bit, and I liked it, but when it comes right down to it the color in Batman has always come from it's villains. Good villain, good movie.
Bane is an interesting choice for Nolan's final movie. There is a part of me that hopes Nolan ends the movie with Batman's back broken and Catwoman saving the day in some strange way. Wayne recovering from the broken back while crime starts to go on the rise again (Making people realize how much they miss Batman) would provide an unconventional backdrop to the inevitable 4th installment.
Anyway, my two cents from the peanut gallery.
Bane is an interesting choice for Nolan's final movie. There is a part of me that hopes Nolan ends the movie with Batman's back broken and Catwoman saving the day in some strange way. Wayne recovering from the broken back while crime starts to go on the rise again (Making people realize how much they miss Batman) would provide an unconventional backdrop to the inevitable 4th installment.
Anyway, my two cents from the peanut gallery.
You know, I've always preferred Batman Begins over TDK but never been able to put my finger on why. I just find the story to be so much deeper. I've been a fan of Nolan ever since Following and am very much looking forward to seeing what he has to offer in the next sequel.
I don't know.. I'd prefer if it didn't need to go out on a bang... its the bookend to a triology.. I feel it should do what it needs to end that triology..
what would be awesome but would never happen is if it ends ala final crisis with dick grayson taking over grant morrison style.. it'll let them not oversaturate the bruce wayne character but still retain batman.. they could even take it in a whole different creative direction.. but alas this probably will not happen
actually Grant Morrisson's Batman and Robin got me thinking a lot of V for Vendetta's end with the whole V as a symbol.. the reference I'm making is the graphic novel which conveyed a different meaning than the movie...
what would be awesome but would never happen is if it ends ala final crisis with dick grayson taking over grant morrison style.. it'll let them not oversaturate the bruce wayne character but still retain batman.. they could even take it in a whole different creative direction.. but alas this probably will not happen
actually Grant Morrisson's Batman and Robin got me thinking a lot of V for Vendetta's end with the whole V as a symbol.. the reference I'm making is the graphic novel which conveyed a different meaning than the movie...
Well, I've seen in a Batman animated movie featuring Bane and Penguin and holy shit, Bane is a formiddable enemy.
The first time I met Bane was in the god awful Batman & Robin, lamest Bane I've ever seen, but in that animated movie I saw, not only he had an amazing strenght, he also had the wits and even surpassed Batman in a lot of things. He had his very own thugs to do the dirty job and obviously he ends up fighting the cape crusader himself and he even ALMOST broke his back, if it wasn't for... uhh... someone, I don't remember whom, rescued Batman at the very last moment. I think it was Batgirl... or Robin?.
I mean, Bane is an insane material to work with and I have my hopes in Nolan that he makes him the villain he deserves to be.
Also, I saw in another movie a vampire Joker working for Dracula, but that's a different story...
The first time I met Bane was in the god awful Batman & Robin, lamest Bane I've ever seen, but in that animated movie I saw, not only he had an amazing strenght, he also had the wits and even surpassed Batman in a lot of things. He had his very own thugs to do the dirty job and obviously he ends up fighting the cape crusader himself and he even ALMOST broke his back, if it wasn't for... uhh... someone, I don't remember whom, rescued Batman at the very last moment. I think it was Batgirl... or Robin?.
I mean, Bane is an insane material to work with and I have my hopes in Nolan that he makes him the villain he deserves to be.
Also, I saw in another movie a vampire Joker working for Dracula, but that's a different story...
Dark Knight Rises MIGHT not hit the same highs as its predecessor, but I get the feeling that it would be because Nolan set the bar in ORBIT so it's going to be tough to top it. Still, he hasn't done a bad film yet and I fully trust his decisions
aside from the Riddler, these two are the BEST for Nolan's style of Batman.
Catwoman: on one hand, she's a burgler, on the other hand, Bruce loves her. plus she can actually FIGHT Batman. Nolan's Bman has ALWAYS been about the battle within
Bane: as long as he's hispanic, he'll do fine. the cartoon series (other than the 90's one) and movies don't do him justice. he ISN'T just pure dumb muscle. he's as intelligent as he is deadly. Bane more or less grew up inside a maximum security prison. while there, he built up his physique just so he could survive, but he also studied different languages and such in his spare time. he agreed to an experiment with Venom in hopes that it would lead to his freedom. he became a hulking monster and escaped. he began work as a mercinary and became interested in Bats. he watched him, studied him, and tortured both Batman and Bruce Wayne psychologically. then, when Batman was most broken, Bane finally revealed himself and LITERALLY broke Batman (over his knee). he put the Dark Knight out of commission for a while, and he didn't even fight him.
Catwoman: on one hand, she's a burgler, on the other hand, Bruce loves her. plus she can actually FIGHT Batman. Nolan's Bman has ALWAYS been about the battle within
Bane: as long as he's hispanic, he'll do fine. the cartoon series (other than the 90's one) and movies don't do him justice. he ISN'T just pure dumb muscle. he's as intelligent as he is deadly. Bane more or less grew up inside a maximum security prison. while there, he built up his physique just so he could survive, but he also studied different languages and such in his spare time. he agreed to an experiment with Venom in hopes that it would lead to his freedom. he became a hulking monster and escaped. he began work as a mercinary and became interested in Bats. he watched him, studied him, and tortured both Batman and Bruce Wayne psychologically. then, when Batman was most broken, Bane finally revealed himself and LITERALLY broke Batman (over his knee). he put the Dark Knight out of commission for a while, and he didn't even fight him.
I don't think either of those Actors fit the roles they are going for honestly, but we'll see what happens, they could surprise me however.
I will say that I think the Batman movies are lionized a bit too much, as memories are short. "Batman Begins" had a LOT of criticism over the reboot desicians, while most said it was a good movie, I don't think the general audience and fan population embraced it quite as much as is let on. It's success was mostly "It's batman, and it doesn't suck".
"The Dark Knight" had the death of Heath Ledger behind it, which captured people's imaginations. While morbid, I think it's frequently overlooked what a big deal that was. What's more it's not like an actor like Heath Ledger who was a politically correct darling at the time was going to be panned after his death. He did play a really good version of "The Joker" but if he was still alive, and there wasn't the whole nerdboy "The Joker is the first comic book villain to kill someone in real life" thing given the rumors about what Heath's method of acting and role preparation might have done to him, would the moive have sold as well?
Don't get me wrong, I think this will be a good movie, but really after the newness of the first movie and the credit it got from being a decent Super Hero movie, this is Nolan's first real attempt to make a successful sequel as he's not likely to have the massive amount of press a famous death like that is going to cause, along with the automatic praise that actor was guaranteed after his death given the views on him at the time in the movie establishment.
I'm sure many people will disagree with me here, of course, but it's just my opinion. I think a pair of good movies are being lionized a bit more than they should be, especially the first one which seems to be being viewed more favorably after "Dark Knight" by the fan commnunity than it was at the time (but don't get me wrong, it was never badly received, just not shouted from the rooftops to this degree).
I will say that I think the Batman movies are lionized a bit too much, as memories are short. "Batman Begins" had a LOT of criticism over the reboot desicians, while most said it was a good movie, I don't think the general audience and fan population embraced it quite as much as is let on. It's success was mostly "It's batman, and it doesn't suck".
"The Dark Knight" had the death of Heath Ledger behind it, which captured people's imaginations. While morbid, I think it's frequently overlooked what a big deal that was. What's more it's not like an actor like Heath Ledger who was a politically correct darling at the time was going to be panned after his death. He did play a really good version of "The Joker" but if he was still alive, and there wasn't the whole nerdboy "The Joker is the first comic book villain to kill someone in real life" thing given the rumors about what Heath's method of acting and role preparation might have done to him, would the moive have sold as well?
Don't get me wrong, I think this will be a good movie, but really after the newness of the first movie and the credit it got from being a decent Super Hero movie, this is Nolan's first real attempt to make a successful sequel as he's not likely to have the massive amount of press a famous death like that is going to cause, along with the automatic praise that actor was guaranteed after his death given the views on him at the time in the movie establishment.
I'm sure many people will disagree with me here, of course, but it's just my opinion. I think a pair of good movies are being lionized a bit more than they should be, especially the first one which seems to be being viewed more favorably after "Dark Knight" by the fan commnunity than it was at the time (but don't get me wrong, it was never badly received, just not shouted from the rooftops to this degree).