Can The Dark Knight Rises Rise Above Its Predecessors?

[geldonyetich]

I'm going to miss Keith Ledger as the Joker. He was damn good at it.

Though I confess, of all the Batman IP, I look forward to Arkham City the most. Ledger did a really believable joker, but Hamil's is a lot more fun.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

Absolutely. Christopher Nolan is a great director, his brother is a great writer, and Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Tom Hardy, and Morgan Freeman are all great actors. Why wouldn't it live up to the other movies?

 

[jspheonix]

I think it will be a great film but we will all hate it. Because we want (and EXPECT) it to top the Dark Knight, and that will be near impossible. When I see it I will keep an open mind though. Bane was a surprise but I trust Nolan enough not to rehash Batman Forever (may it forever be forgotten). Bane in the comics is relatively interesting, and if my memory serves me correctly Nolan described their Bane as a 'New interpretation' that interests me

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

In what way is Batman unimaginable in our realism? You say he can't be realistic, but I still don't see why.

Really got to get to work, but I'll have a long set of details later on. I do remember the Escapist article on the unrealities of Batman in the Hero issue, but I'm behind time already.

 

[putowtin]

Batman - Michael Keaton
Joker - Jack Nicolson
This is the only batman film that has ever worked
(unless you go back to the classic Adam West/ Burt Ward!)

 

[Vortigar]

Bane can work in a multitude of ways. As long as his intelligence isn't ignored like our friend Schumacher did he fits perfectly in Nolan's vision of Batman. The simplest way is take Batman Begins as a template. Where scarecrow harnessed the populace of Gotham with his gas Bane can harness the criminal element with his steroids, creating an insurmountable problem for the police force and forcing the Bat out. But where Scarecrow easily falls when you finally catch up to him Bane presents an extra hurdle.

Catwoman/Kyle is the problem here as she can easily fail. If used as a love interest for Wayne you can get a retread of the love story of the previous film, especially because Bane will use her as leverage. If used as a love interest for the Bat you can get a retread of Batman Returns (still my fave Batman movie, Keaton, Danny and Michelle are on a roll in that one). Nolan's going to have to walk a tightrope on that one.

I just hope Nolan manages to restrain himself from explaining everything at length all the time. Inception and The Dark Knight are both marred by rather extreme lengths of exposition and preaching. Memento would not be improved by explaining everything in detail thus he wisely left it out, it seems he's forgotten that of late.

But there was also a rumor that Catwoman is going to step up during Batman's recession (who better to follow up a Bat-Man than a Cat-Woman?) as an equal costumed vigilante (someone whom we've yet to see in Nolan's Gotham).

That's an interesting angle you've got there. Rolling up Catwoman and Robin into the same person.

I still believe there's a character that's yet to be revealed though. Catwoman seems like such a weird fit for Nolan's Batmovies it just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Is this in the EXCLUSION of Riddler and Penguin? or are they going to make a cameo? or was that all just speculation?

Cause i would be sad now if those two were the intended villains but was then replaced with Bane. Though Bane would make for a good send off for Nolan if this is his last batman movie. He has a talent for portraying lesser known villains very well.

I mean Bane obviously gets a bad rep from the his previous incarnation, and anyone who isn't into DC would not know his actual character and probably be put off thinking back. Also the fact that Catwoman have been marred similarly by a terrible movie.

Apparently Talia Al Ghul was involved with Bane at one point, so she can still make an appearance woo. XD

 

[Jeffro Tull]

The Riddler is still going to be in this right? After seeing Joseph Gordon-Levitt in Inception, I have been really curious as to how he would portray that character. He was so calculated in that movie that I thought he would be perfect.

 

[anian]

What is there to say, but "in Nolan we trust"...though in my humble opinion, female casting was not that good in the last two films, especially in contrast with previous films - Kim Basinger, Nicole Kidman, Michelle Pfieffer. On the other hand male casting has been excellent (from Bale to Eckhart).
And I hope do something about the Batman voice.

...that's about all the critics I can gather on the new movies. I've seen Begins in theater once, I saw DK two times, so this we'll probably not disappoint.

 

[brazuca]

What is with batfans and realism. Do you really belive a guy (pick your favorite fighter) can fight crime alone, unarmed and with no police training other than books he read about it? That SUPER criminals would not be treated as terrorist and convicted to death penalty. If Batman can not kill the Joker, well... I bet the US gov. can, put him on a chair, electrecute his brain and it is over. Well even Bob Kane killed him.
But I won't reason with comics book logic of real. Just think like this Batman is an attempt (not of copying Zorro), but to humanize super heroes.Y? Super Heroes are boring. Their stories are filled with I knew you would do that.

As for the movies, I'm yet to see Anne Hathawy doing a poor job. So I trust her as catwoman. For Bane, hum... Suprise me, Casino Royale showed me that fanboys like to complain even when they did not see the final piece.

PS: I'm not a huge fan of 007, but I saw all movies, read some books and played a few games, so it counts for something right

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

I still like Mark hamil as the voice of the joker and always will.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Said I'd come back to this:

What do you expect, that he has tea parties with criminals? And he's a dirty fighter? I didn't see any groin shots, scratching or eye gouging... Here's something that Batman doesn't have in common with other 'super heroes' as you say, he wears a costume for two reasons, not only to preserve his identity for safety and legal reasons, but also so that he can act as a symbol. I'm not aware that the 'everyman', wears a menacing costume, owns a tank like car takes down criminals with an arsenal of gadgets, and his fists, and can glide. The fact that to the people, Batman is an unknown masked entity who exists to restore justice to the city, makes him a symbol.

Ok, couple of points I'll get to later, but you're missing something. Batman's symbol is that people are scared of him - Criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot - and Bats role in a fight is to menace them; not just to blur across the screen in front of us.

But you have touched on one thing, the "everyman" doesn't do those things. And why? Because in our reality, that would get him killed.

In what way is Batman unimaginable in our realism? You say he can't be realistic, but I still don't see why.

Basically, Bats is a superhero. Bruce Wayne is a hero. The difference is not just in the "symbol" but in the legends. Bruce Wayne (And Logan, Clark Kent, Peter Parker) performs heroic acts by donating, reporting or being good people.

Batman does something different. He does things that no-one else can do - or does he? If Batman wasn't a superhero, he does seem to possess certain super power:

1) Chiseled Physique: This is one of the main superpowers that all superheros have. Not just the lanternjaw and the rippling physique, but the fact that Bats(Bruce) can benchpress 1000 lbs, dodge point blank shots, catch arrows in midflight and has been shot multiple times.

Now, apart from the huge amount of time that would take to keep up (Most Olympic medallists need to spend 4 hours a day working to get to that pace), the two disciplines of Strength and Dexterity work against each other. As Bruce Lee found out, huge biceps actually make your punches weaker because you're having to work against that movement.

BUT, that's a cartoon stickler, so Nolan's Bats is just going to be good.

2) Plot Immunity: Well, that's a fictional character power, so again, we can discount it.

3) Super Efficiency: It's usually assumed that to reach master status in a discipline you have to put 10,000 hours into it. [http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt1.html](10 years)
Let's have a look at Bruce's resume:
Peak Athleticism
Weapons Master
Martial Arts Master in 127 different Martial Arts
Billionaire
Stealth Master
17 different languages
(Oh..he's 70 now... And really that's not the end of his skills: Even with his basic Nolan skill-set, he's 40 years on from his folks getting killed)

4) Super Building: The Bat Cave: Apart from cleaning up the Bat Guano (acidic), you'd need 100s of workers to build that thing.

5) Super Building: The Bat Mobile: Better than any military vehicle.

6) Super Building: The Bat Jet: See above.

7) Super Building: The Bat Belt: Not only would it weigh a ton, be dreadfully impractical and unwieldy, but it apparently has interdimensional space because in the Nolan films he can pull out mini-mines, a huge time bomb firer, (Not to mention the Bat-Thermos or the Shark Repellent Bat Spray)

8) The Bat Credit Card: How has Bats suffered in the latest financial crisis? He hasn't? Well, where has the paycheques gone for his hundreds of workers needed to keep the Batcave clean and updated? (Even Alfred, being ex-SAS, couldn't get that job done) How about all the construction money, repairs, rebuilds? Does he have a Bat-Accountant?

9) Super Building: The Bat Computer : Better than the FBIs files, it's alleged. Even if it's running Linux, we're talking a minimum of 2 hours a day updating, cleaning, checking.

10) Bat-Immunity: Batman has $6.5 Billion. Oprah is worth $2.7. Is there anything we don't know about Oprah? The Bat Universe Julian Assange (Jack Ryder) would have detailed Bruce down to his last cent.
And Commissioner Gordon? Bats is going to be leaving a lot of skin flecks around your crime scenes, so a quick talk with CSI will get you his identity.
Oh, and Bruce, the CPA are here to see you about Robin...

11) Bat-Endurance: Bats has come back from getting his back broken. Even in the Nolanverse, Bats has suffered as many headpunches as Muhammed Ali.

12) Bat-Safety: Take a look at Gotham City. It is constantly in a state similar to the L.A. Riots. The Police are as good as useless against Joker, Penguin, Mr. Freeze etc. (Even in the 1960s)

But one man can hold off a CITY full of villains so that people want to live there?

13) Bat-Hermit:
Batman shuns social contact. He's friends with an elderly ex-SAS guy and a small orphan. Despite the fact it would take thousands of people to clean the Batcave, support the Batvehicles, run Wayne Enterprises, Keep the Batcomputer free of bugs and stop his good name being dragged through the dirt (You mean no-one on Bat-Twitter ever thought that the two of them could be the same person?), he keeps to himself.

Soooo, what's the real answer?

Well, if we nip back to the Pulps with Zorro and Sherlock for a moment...

Who do we know about these things from? A group of Spanish villagers, Doctor Watson and beaten criminals.

Are they going to exaggerate? Of course they are.

So while Bruce Wayne will be a hero, and Bruce Wayne (suited) will be great; BATMAN is, as gamezombie said, a symbol, and will act as he's portrayed. Not because he's realistic (because the above 13 points kick that chair out) but because all of his stories are hugely exaggerated versions.

And that's how Bruce sees them as well. He's a man obsessed and is living the dream, even if it's a total fantasy.

Batman can't be realistic, because then the whole Bat-mythology, Bat-symbol and Bat-legend falls. Like Big Daddy.

Batman (realistic) would be a kevlar coated ninja. Batman, as he's told, is 10 foot tall, can smell fear and if you ever see him...you're already in jail.

And take a quick look at what he really is: A white billionaire playboy beating up street thugs, while leaving the big multinationals alone because they keep him in gadgets.

What would our media do to him after they crucified him?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Well perhaps Alfred Pennyworth has bitching clean up skills, and Lucius Fox is a ninja with numbers.

If they can do the work of 100 men, then they're the superheroes.

I still think that Batman is realistic in many aspects, but even movies about true stories are often exagerated.

Many, granted; but in no way can you call him realistic.

You've touched on so many points, and several of them have flaws, e.g cleaning the Batcave? I don't think he'd be worried about a bit of dust, (it's got the word CAVE in it's title, I wouldn't expect a mini bar and some lazy boys, also, sure he gets punched around a little, but Muhammad Ali didn't have a face protecting cowl when he fought, also you mention the Bat jet, that doesn't even EXIST in this universe, which is what we are discussing, I hope, (because I'd be kinda screwed if I was trying to defend the realism in the animated series and/or other non Nolan Batman movies.)

A bit of dust? I strongly suspect that to keep it habitable, given that batshit is toxic, it would need round the clock cleaning. Muhammed Ali may not have had a face cowl, but I doubt Ali got shot, stabbed, electrified etc. And the BatJet is really an icing point, his skill set alone marks him as Super. I didn't even get to his 5 degrees.

I disagree that Batman's symbol is that people are scared of him, I think he is a symbol of truth and justice, and the way in which he carries out his work to establish this symbol INVOLVES criminals being scared of him, not everyone, I'd say that better describes the boogyman's symbol.

Truth and Justice is Supes role. Fear is - and always has been - Bats trademark. Even in Adam West and Tim Burton's world.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Yeah, the citizens of Gotham just love this masked hero who absolutely terrifies them, and you found Adam West's Batman scary?

Criminals fear him, Authorities (and the Innocent) respect him. That's possibly the major thing that Bats couldn't get in our world. We love to tear down our heroes.

Bats whole "super powers" schtick is that he's reached mastery across so many levels - which would be impossible for any normal human to do. He's reached the level of Donald Trump, Bruce Lee, Einstein and Elliot Ness in less time than it took any of his real life counterparts - and he's matched all of them. He's a multiple area savant.

I don't find Bats scary at all, but Cesar Romero's Joker feared Adam West as much as Jack Nicholson's Joker feared Keaton's Batman.

Superman entrusted Bats to take him down if he ever went nutsoid. This is a guy who can travel at supersonic speeds, stop a moving train and jump buildings in a single bound. And he fears/respects Batman. That's a superhero in anyone's books.