8 Bit Philosophy: Does Christianity Make Us Weak? (Nietzsche)

Mazimadu

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Baresark said:
In their defense, they don't just do videogames, though it is a big portion of their site. This is taken from the Wisecrack Youtube channel, which is easily one of the best and this particular series always leads to interesting debates. They always use videogames to discuss various philosophical topics.

If they really wanted a fun film video series, they would do Earthling Cinema. Great show. And Thug Notes is also a lot of fun.
Good point. Given how the forums usually turn out I was expecting a storm of flaming to come out of this given the topic.

It still surprises me that everyone is so civil about this. I am impressed.
 

Lazule

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Callate said:
...Of course, Neitzsche also died insane.

The man had some interesting things to say, no question. But taking him as a sole guiding light undoubtedly carries with it the assumption that one will, of course, be the predator not the prey. Assuming that those who work together to accomplish greater ends (and fend off the "predators", however strong) is unwise. And those who feel they can pick and choose, accepting the benefits of the so-called "herd mentality" when it suits them and victimizing others to their own benefit when it suits them, cease to so much predators as scavengers; in the long term, they often end up with neither the strength of existing on predation nor the protections of affectionate camaraderie.
I think so too. Nietzsche is right on a lot of things but is wrong on others, he shouldn't confuse pity/mercy with weakness. I'm not a man of faith but even I understand this concept. I like philosophers like Nietzsche a lot and Julius Evola but you can't take everything they say literally nor you have to agree with everything they say.

Philosophy is best seen in multiple parts, you take what works+what you like and discard what doesn't. Actually I think Nietzsche would encourage this, idk.
 

Fox12

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I like aspects of Nietzsche, so far as I understand him. He seemed to be searching for answers that he never really found. That said, I fing this video rather... silly, to put it nicely. It's very Ayn Rand. I've never heard of a single Christian saying this. All the Christians I know are quite the opposite. This is the aspect of Nietzsche I can't stand, and it's far worse with his followers. They can be rather narcissistic. They won't stop talking about the sheeple and the heard mentality (while they, of course, are the bold outspoken philosophers).

First of all Christianity, and its followers, don't really espouse any of the things mentioned in this video.

Second of all, humans evolved empathy and emotions because it helps us survive as a species. Selfishness helps the individual, but it hurts the group. That's why people feel compelled to help one another, even if they get nothing in return. It's a beautiful thing, and it's what helps give humanity value. I'm fully in love with capitalism and competition, being a libertarian, but that doesn't mean it's somehow wrong to care for others. It certainly doesn't make us mediocre.

My third point is the most important. You aren't fighting faith, your fighting human nature. Even if you remove Christianity from the picture, you'll still have people arguing for egalitarianism or dispensement of wealth and resources. Look at Communism and Objectivism. Both popularized by atheists, both opposites of one another.

Next time on 8-bit philosophy. Eugenics: time for a come back?
 

CrystalShadow

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Eh. It's Neitsche's philosophy, but I think it's missing something. Especially when presented like this.

Since 'herd mentality' is a point, it should be noted that conformity and 'herd' behaviour is also a form of strength.

A buffalo is vulnerable to wolves, but an entire herd of them is a pretty scary thing to face.

Thus, while you might argue herd mentality makes the individual weaker, it makes the group stronger. It's merely another side of the same argument.


That aside, I'm not really seeing the connection to Christianity in it. It's minimally relevant, if at all, to the point being made in the video.

As for the nature of the world? Probably. But it's a pretty obnoxious reality if you start looking at it like that. One of the harshest least fair kinds of existence.
Brutally efficient is about the kindest description I could give for the nature of the universe if you insist on looking on it in these kinds of terms.

The creation of one thing after all, is entirely dependent on the destruction of another. That's the way of things, and it all can be traced back to conservation of energy.

If the quantity of energy in the universe is fixed (and remembering e=mc[sup]2[/sup] tells us that matter and energy are equivalent), then that means to use that energy for one thing precludes using it for any other.
But, since it is neither lost nor gained, what that means is the only thing that can happen is to change it from one form to another.

And that means something must be destroyed first, to be able to create something else...
Efficient, logical, but absolutely cold and ruthless.
 

Matthewmagic

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I have suspected Neiztche is a more articulate Ayn Rand for a while now. This video feels like you could just replace Neiztche with Rand and very little would change.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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LysanderNemoinis said:
Gorrath said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
Wow, I can't believe that most of the posts so far have been defending or at least not bashing Christianity. It's actually...kind of a nice treat for me to see. But I'd also like to point out that most of the people who want paticipation trophies, not keeping score in games, treating everyone like a winnner, gold stars for all, and wanting people to conform are the very same people who love Nietzsche almost purely because of his hatred of religion.
I'm curious as to where you derive that conclusion from. People who like participation trophies also like Nietzsche because he hates religion? Is there some link or correlation between participation trophies and hating religion? I find that assertion to be a bit odd; what makes you link the two?
Generally, very far left-leaning people, and especially in the education industry (which is almost entirely liberal to a fault), are the ones pushing participation trophies, gold stars for nothing, forcing winners in schools to give up their trophies if the game's a blowout, etc. Also, I've yet to meet a single liberal person who doesn't adore Nietzsche or at least spout his anti-religious rhetoric whenever they happen to encounter anything religious.

First person who picked up on this discrepancy. I'm wondering if the video makers took into account the left-leaning politicians in the US being the ones taking away games like "tag" because "no one wants to be 'it'" and being "it" makes people feel bad. Same with the whole ideals of participation trophies and the like. Just seems funny to me that the very same people who hate on Christianity and tend to love Nietzsche also push the "everyone's a winner" ideal...
 

beastro

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Nietzsche despised weakness to a degree only an incredibly weak person possibly could. On top of that weakness can make one view things very very black and white, and if you associate things with weakness then their opposites get clumped in with strength.

I've gotten glimpses of that dealing with the darkest moments of depression.

Santayana summed him up best:
That there is no God is proved by Nietzsche pragmatically, on the ground that belief in the existence of God would have made him uncomfortable. Not at all for the reason that might first occur to us: to imagine himself a lost soul has always been a point of pride with the romantic genius. The reason was that if there had been any gods he would have found it intolerable not to be a god himself. Poor Nietzsche! The laurels of the Almighty would not let him sleep.

It is hard to know if we should be more deceived in taking these sallies seriously or in not taking them so. On the one hand it all seems the swagger of an immature, half-playful mind, like a child that tells you he will cut your head off. The dreamy impulse, in its inception, is sincere enough, but there is no vestige of any understanding of what it proposes, of its conditions, or of its results. On the other hand these explosions are symptomatic; there stirs behind them unmistakably an elemental force. That an attitude is foolish, incoherent, disastrous, proves nothing against the depth of the instinct that inspires it. Who could be more intensely unintelligent than Luther or Rousseau? Yet the world followed them, not to turn back. The molecular forces of society, so to speak, had already undermined the systems which these men denounced. If the systems have survived it is only because the reformers, in their intellectual helplessness, could supply nothing to take their place. So Nietzsche, in his genial imbecility, betrays the shifting of great subterranean forces. What he said may be nothing, but the fact that he said it is all-important. Out of such wild intuitions, because the heart of the child was in them, the man of the future may have to build his philosophy. We should forgive Nietzsche his boyish blasphemies. He hated with clearness, if he did not know what to love."
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
First person who picked up on this discrepancy. I'm wondering if the video makers took into account the left-leaning politicians in the US being the ones taking away games like "tag" because "no one wants to be 'it'" and being "it" makes people feel bad. Same with the whole ideals of participation trophies and the like. Just seems funny to me that the very same people who hate on Christianity and tend to love Nietzsche also push the "everyone's a winner" ideal...
The Left has carried on aspects of Christianity, as stemming from their roots, only theirs is now a completely secular outlook that carried on an exaggerated form of Christian fair treatment and desire for equality while at the same time being free to attack religion in general.

One merely has to see this in modern things like wars on poverty and people honestly thinking that is can be eradicated while Christ spoke of being generous and fair while admitting that, in this life, there will always be the poor.

Compare it to the 19th Century when it was the mostly Protestant/secularist progressives in Britain who, out of moralizing, got homosexuality made illegal there while the conservatives opposed it as imposing upon traditional liberty while today the same moralizing from the Left has been applied by their mostly irreligious descendants to do the opposite (Just as the great fault of conservatives is to defend those changes because they've become ingrained in us over time).
 

leviadragon99

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Christian morality represents equality?

Welp, lost me within the first minute, good job there Freddy.

Oh, and compassion isn't a weakness.
 

Matthewmagic

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I'm going to have to be the one to say it huh?

While he may be wrong about the cause, the symptom is a very real problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDDyT1lDhA

I wish we did put more value in thinking for ones self, and in achievement. Maybe fewer people would be so utterly mediocre, and seek to better themselves.

Before anyone makes the accusation I'm not an objectivist or a nihilist. I just see where they are coming from here, and I think the problem has to do with worrying to much about the feelings of other people. If your feelings get hurt, you become stronger. You learn more from failing then you do from succeeding yet, we treat failure like it is some kind of plague.

Do you remember that time you missed a jump in super mario brothers and proceeded to cry yourself to sleep? Me neither, I remember using my next life to figure out that jump. I am better at video games because of it. I'm better at programming because I failed so often when I first started out, and I'm better at math because I have the self esteme to admit to myself when I need to work harder. Yeah, I feel bad when I fail, but that bad feeling leads me to want to change whatever quality within myself that caused me to fail to begin with.

I know the intent is compassion, but the real world effect is duck face selfies and pictures of your dinner in place of substantive conversation and motivation.

maybe that is just me...
 

Mullahgrrl

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So a tiger has teeth and claws because it wills it?

What a moronic philosophy, and one who only could have risen in extreme privilige; I want something so it happens, poor people must simply not want proficiently enough.
 

Lightknight

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leviadragon99 said:
Christian morality represents equality?

Welp, lost me within the first minute, good job there Freddy.

Oh, and compassion isn't a weakness.
Exactly, I'm getting a real Rand-ian vibe from Nietzsche here. The whole selfishness as a virtue deconstruction of social cooperation and compassion for others. It's novel to think about the notion that selfishness isn't bad, it's worth challenging preconceptions, but at the end of the day it struggles against the things that brought mankind out of the stone age. Our cooperation and consideration was tantamount to our survival and progression as a species. Even God is deemed to be an evolutionary advantage where people still do the right thing and contribute to society when they feel like an unseen observer is capable of rewarding or punishment.

The video and Nietzsche seem to fail to distinguish between abhorrence of success verse overdoing a thing. People who win a game are praised for being better than their opponent. Someone that runs up the score isn't being demonized for winning or being better, they're being punished for not showing restraint. For expressing greed well beyond their needs at the expense of others. Seeing a high school team trounce a no-name high school team isn't a sign of strength beyond the moment they're clearly in the lead with little to no chance of a come back. Seeing a businessman gain wealth by producing a product that changes the world, like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, isn't demonized. But seeing someone gain wealth by taking unfair advantage of others is. A golden eagle carrying off a goat or sheep isn't bad. It is taking that to eat and survive. A person selling a product for a reasonable price isn't bad. But someone trying to take everything you've got for a jug of clean water in a time of disaster? That's seen as atrocious.

It's because at some point it stops to be seen as strength and starts to be seen as brutality. We praise those attributes as a society, we always have. But taken too far anything starts to be seen as something bad and this video (or at least the person it's discussing) entirely fails to distinguish between the two. The thing that is initially praise vs the thing done to the extreme and now reviled.
 

mad825

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CrystalShadow said:
Eh. It's Neitsche's philosophy, but I think it's missing something. Especially when presented like this.
It is, I suppose that's the problem when it's being boiled down to a simple stew.

Nietzsche didn't hit on Christianity that much unless it's a subject about hardship. He did believe that a degree of suffering was require to live a happy and successful life by overcoming those odds, it was Christianity's compassion allowed those who had suffered to find salvation cheaply, without having to work hard mentally or physically - without having earning the right to such enlightenment.

He often refer Christianity as a "religion of comfortables","small, mean people hiding in forests like shy deer".
 

visiblenoise

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I guess ultimately everyone reads what they want to in anything. Nietzsche, to me, simply argued for individuality. Not for any specific way of living, apart from the one that you cannot separate yourself from. The lion should be respected for its nature.
 

Gorrath

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LysanderNemoinis said:
Gorrath said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
Wow, I can't believe that most of the posts so far have been defending or at least not bashing Christianity. It's actually...kind of a nice treat for me to see. But I'd also like to point out that most of the people who want paticipation trophies, not keeping score in games, treating everyone like a winnner, gold stars for all, and wanting people to conform are the very same people who love Nietzsche almost purely because of his hatred of religion.
I'm curious as to where you derive that conclusion from. People who like participation trophies also like Nietzsche because he hates religion? Is there some link or correlation between participation trophies and hating religion? I find that assertion to be a bit odd; what makes you link the two?
Generally, very far left-leaning people, and especially in the education industry (which is almost entirely liberal to a fault), are the ones pushing participation trophies, gold stars for nothing, forcing winners in schools to give up their trophies if the game's a blowout, etc. Also, I've yet to meet a single liberal person who doesn't adore Nietzsche or at least spout his anti-religious rhetoric whenever they happen to encounter anything religious.
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
Gorrath said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
Wow, I can't believe that most of the posts so far have been defending or at least not bashing Christianity. It's actually...kind of a nice treat for me to see. But I'd also like to point out that most of the people who want paticipation trophies, not keeping score in games, treating everyone like a winnner, gold stars for all, and wanting people to conform are the very same people who love Nietzsche almost purely because of his hatred of religion.
I'm curious as to where you derive that conclusion from. People who like participation trophies also like Nietzsche because he hates religion? Is there some link or correlation between participation trophies and hating religion? I find that assertion to be a bit odd; what makes you link the two?
Generally, very far left-leaning people, and especially in the education industry (which is almost entirely liberal to a fault), are the ones pushing participation trophies, gold stars for nothing, forcing winners in schools to give up their trophies if the game's a blowout, etc. Also, I've yet to meet a single liberal person who doesn't adore Nietzsche or at least spout his anti-religious rhetoric whenever they happen to encounter anything religious.

First person who picked up on this discrepancy. I'm wondering if the video makers took into account the left-leaning politicians in the US being the ones taking away games like "tag" because "no one wants to be 'it'" and being "it" makes people feel bad. Same with the whole ideals of participation trophies and the like. Just seems funny to me that the very same people who hate on Christianity and tend to love Nietzsche also push the "everyone's a winner" ideal...
I would counter by saying that your experience differs from my own? In my youth I belonged to a fair-few church organizations, including the Kiwanas. There wasn't a single one that didn't offer these sorts of participation awards. I don't dispute that this is also a phenomenon in education and youth sports, but it's hardly limited to them. What's more, nearly half the U.S. is left leaning and 85% are Christian, there is a ton of overlap between left and religious. Irreligiosity may be commonly thought of as being a "left" movement, but it isn't. There's plenty of religious people on the left and plenty of irreligious people on the right. Left-leaning =/= not irreligious or anti-religious.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I tried watching this video. I really did. But I couldn't. It was hard listening to it basically attack my faith, but then when it got to the point where "good and evil" are just words and don't matter, I was done. I've seen that type of thinking before, from the made up Sith in Star Wars, to dictators and murderers justifying their actions.
 

Mutie

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Sound like a load of alpha male poop to me. Strength does not dictate success, our very species is testament to that. Those who will never know strength or power or love have other roles to fill. We are artists, intellectuals and (ironically) philosophers. Cogs perpetually spinning in an endless mechanism. I find it hilarious (in a poetic kind of way) the fashion in which the strong and the bigoted believe themselves to be the focal point, when they are little more than the puppets and masks. The decal on the machine, as it were. And we all know what happens when one of those fools acquires totalitarian power.

But alas, I shall rest easy in the knowledge that the confident and the egotistical are (in my experience) ultimately blind to the wider picture. Old souls return in weak shells.
 

Strazdas

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I tried reading nietche because everyone keeps mentioning him. after a few books i just couldnt do it anymore. his blatant racism, crazy ideas and self-contradiction just turned me off constantly. and this is a great example on one of those crazy ideas.


Mr.Mattress said:
OT: Christianity is a religion that wishes for people to be kind, fair, just, charitable and humble
christianity is a very strange religion. its like soviet union. it pretends to be all that great thing for people, but when you examine it it is nothing btu cruel dictatorship. at least islam is open about its goals.


leviadragon99 said:
Christian morality represents equality?

Welp, lost me within the first minute, good job there Freddy.

Oh, and compassion isn't a weakness.
no, christian morality forces equality. that is, it will force everyone into being exactly same thing and therefore equal.

Gorrath said:
What's more, nearly half the U.S. is left leaning and 85% are Christian, there is a ton of overlap between left and religious. Irreligiosity may be commonly thought of as being a "left" movement, but it isn't. There's plenty of religious people on the left and plenty of irreligious people on the right. Left-leaning =/= not irreligious or anti-religious.
i find that quite odd, considering that US does not have a single left leaning political party.
Also from what i read the "God believers" amount dropped to around 66%.
 

ephesus64

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There's a counterpoint here about Nietzche's thoughts eventually, please give me a moment. The Christian traditions as sourced in the Bible were intended as statements of fact about reality. Taken as fact, Scripture posits that humans as a whole tend toward (what a surprise) self-interest, and need to be informed of how their existence is owed to a powerful creator who condescended to live among them as Christ. This God desires reciprocal interaction with inherently lesser beings, and actually appears rather fond of His creations despite how they tend to use their limited free will.

"Hell" therefore is unrestrained self-interest, not a stick to pit against a carrot. If you do not desire to have a God with authority to declare how you should use the privileges you were given, you do not have to live with one. However, outside of the original source of Light, Love, Order, Beauty, etc., self-rule may ultimately not be as good as imagined.

From this viewpoint, humans are inherently equal before a common creator. Power and privilege count for very little when compared with the authority of the universe's designer, so kings and beggars live on a considerably leveled playing field. Equal worth before God is freedom: the beggar does not need to see his existence as worthless compared to the king, and may live his life as well as he can with the hope of citizenship in God's Kingdom; the king does not need to rule tyrannically so as to preserve his power as though it were the only thing of value, and in fact can treat all humans with equal dignity though they may not have equal ability and privilege to rule, because a greater authority than himself demands it. That's part of what is meant by "freedom in Christ". It draws humans toward good.

What Nietzche felt squashed the desire to succeed and grow as a person and as a society actually gives people freedom to pursue those things rightly. As idols of ultimate importance for a person, things such as power, wealth, and pleasure can quickly become rather ugly. As freedoms within a greater Kingdom, the human pursuit of greatness is actually strengthened. When a culture strays from this, then science, art, and government suffer. When they are seen as minor aspects of life before a God with the authority to say what is right and wrong use of creation, I believe it is then that you then see real greatness.

It's true that you don't need a god to have morals, but no one else has any obligation to follow them. Best of luck with that, honestly.

tl:dr? Sorry. I enjoyed writing it, and I enjoyed the general lack of vitriol and rants for or against Christian Theism so far. Taken as facts, some of what I said is highly offensive, and I apologize for glibly bringing up matters of life and meaning on a gaming website if it seems inappropriate.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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I remember this one infuriating moment in my childhood where in a race where there was only me and one other... I ended up in second place. For whatever reason, my first thought even as a child was that "I came last" and that no matter how much it was true I came "second" the second place ribbon I had was no more that a participation award.

I felt annoyed, embarrassed, and straight up sad that I had to be dragged up to "celebrate" coming last. I was something like 5 or 8 years old at the time. In the end... It wasn't the loss itself that annoyed me... It was that they actually expected me to pretend it was a good thing in front of the "Herd". For whatever reason I wanted to be as adamant as I could that the 2nd place ribbon I was given was "FAKE".

... And so it came to be that I began to hate the time of year that school competitions came around, even when teachers and otherwise urged everyone to participate. I knew the others were better at sports so it made no sense to expose my weakness, and it made even less sense to give up my sense of pride and accept the condescending "participation" awards.

Instead... I eventually took up martial arts, one of the skills that wasn't paraded about on those days. And I was free to practice it and thrive or fail on my own terms without anyone around to pay attention.

So in the end... I understand the sentiment that Christianity's herd mentality is bad.