172: Heathens by Design

[Anthony Burch]

Heathens by Design

"Super Mario doesn't believe in God."

"For all his magical items, heroic deeds and self-sacrifice, Mario knows - simply knows - that there is no external, mystical force shaping events and willing to intervene on his behalf. There's the player, of course, but he boots up the system and grabs the controller, the player and Mario are one and the same. Mario, and Mario alone, is the only person who can save the Princess, defeat Bowser and restore order to the land. No invisible, benevolent overlord. No God. And he likes it that way."

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[ZeroMachine]

Eh... as intelligent as this was, and althought it brought up some interesting thoughts, I think you're digging to deep. And trust me, I LOVE to dig deep.

Yes, the Mario games never acknowledge that there is some god controlling them. But does it deny the idea of a god at all? No. In fact, it makes it seem more like my personal view on whatever created us. Some powerful being put one thing in motion and then sat back, got some popcorn, and watched the show.

As for your insight on GLaDOS and the guy from BioShock (still haven't played that, sadly, so I don't know exactly what you were talking about), that doesn't scream "you're being controlled by a god, and therefore god is bad" at all like you made it sound. The story wasn't about fighting against a "god" at all. It was about fighting for freedom from someone with power. That doesn't mean god. Of course, you were right about God of War but that's a given.

So like I said, interesting, but felt a bit like you were grasping at straws to me.

 

[CodeChrono]

"grasping at straws to me."

That was my inital reaction as well. To me, it just screamed "people who belive in God are moronic and games prove it".

Seeing as how I am of the Christian faith, I won't say that I'm offended (I'm not really, I felt more perturbed than anything), but I will say that it made me seriously consider what the Escapist represents, because this week seemed to be all about creationsism or religion in some way shape or form, mostly the negative. I've always been a pretty avid reader of the articles, because I find them interesting. And the Editor's Note did make me feel better, because I see that the point was supposed to be about God games. However, I think the correspondants really took it in a totally wrong direction.

I digress. This post will be more than likely overlooked and ignored, and probably flamed at one point or another.

 

[elmaxx]

I think you're digging way too deep man.

Someone get the author some decaf and maybe take him out for a walk. Take it easy dude.

 

[Simski]

I wouldn't say the Mario universe is atheist.
I would neither say it is theist.

I believe the Mario universe is apathetic to the idea of a god.
No-one in that universe have simply ever even heard of a god, they wouldn't know what god was if we asked them.

 

[Baby Tea]

While this was an interesting read, I think that the writer's view of God seems to be coming from an interesting standpoint. He claims that Metal Gear, Mario and, later in the article, ALL games are anti-theist, simply for the fact that God doesn't swoop in to save the day at a moment of peril, or 'save the day' with a snap of his fingers.

I wonder where this idea of a 'divine super hero' comes from. People seem to think, first, that the SEEMING inaction of God is a proof of his non-existence. Secondly, they seem to think that if God DOES do something, it must be in the realm of the supernatural (With a bolt of lightning, crack of thunder, and an earthquake).

So I would say half the of the article is way off. The non-mention of God in a game where God doesn't 'swoop in to save the day' isn't anti-theist in the same way that movies or fictional books that don't reference God aren't anti-theist. They are all (Games, books, movies, etc) simply stories, and the non-mention of God, or the protagonist being 'the only one' who can save the day, doesn't an anti-theist statement make.

The other part of this article is odd, considering the writers description of God (The one who would end wars with a snap of the fingers). The 'anti-god' games. These games put the same limitations on the antagonist that the writer put on the player in the 'god games'. For instance, if Kratos REALLY was trying to kill God, then God could just will Kratos to die, or be non-existent. End of story. But since they have to battle and fight and the 'god' can actually die, then they aren't God at all. Perhaps a 'demi-god', to use the writer's words. The same goes with the Bioshock analogy.

So like I said, interesting, but felt a bit like you were grasping at straws to me.

Ditto.

 

[thisbymaster]

Sigh, way to go over thinking everything. It sounds like you had already come to your conclusions before even started this piece. It also seemed horribly one sided, you can't produce a convincing argument without showing the other side and their supporting evidence.
+C

 

[ldjosh]

Grasping at straws might even be a stretch. I'm seriously sick of The Escapist green lighting articles like this. It seems every issue has at least one article that's "Christians are dumb" or "Guys like boobs and sex". I would pay good money to see mario ***** slap this guy with a bible.

 

[Simski]

I wouldn't say Black & White is anti-theist either.
The old Norse and Greek religions had flawed gods for example.
Several gods with limited power who where able to make mistakes, and sometimes compete over power.

It was ofcourse not very supportive of the Christian religion, and for that I'm thankful.
I hate that religion, Greeks and Scandinavians knew how to make religion interesting.

 

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

I doubt a world filled with conveniently placed coins, mushrooms, and power stars is entirely devoid of some omniscient force.

 

[raemiel]

I concur with everyone else that this just seemed to be grasping at straws. The whole case of games being anti-theistic due to there not being a 'swooping' in of a god doesn't mean much since games like Mario are not concerned with matters of religion. Those games which are, like Black and White, lay out the rules for your actions as a god-being, and so are sufficient in how they address the concept.

Other games such as Bioshock or Portal with their omniscient and possibly omnipotent controlling character does not address the god question as it is merely how the plot/game has been formulated. If Fontaine from Bioshock is analagous to god then so is Dr Kleinman from the original Half-Life. For a short period of time at the beginning he guides Gordon through the ill-fated experiment, this is a similar role (for a short time) to that of Fontaine or GlaDOS and can hardly be considered a concept of god.

Does the author have any ideas on how games may address and allow the concept of a god? (beyond the Bioshock and Portal concept)

 

[Simski]

Does the author have any ideas on how games may address and allow the concept of a god? (beyond the Bioshock and Portal concept)

Bible games could be a start.
(although I am obviously not the author)

 

[ZeroMachine]

First, just want to say:

I doubt a world filled with conveniently placed coins, mushrooms, and power stars is entirely devoid of some omniscient force.

Priceless XD

Second, I thought of something else as a counter argument to the "all games are anti-theistic" just for the sake of seeing what others thought. Now, from what I've seen, Halo is pretty bashed on these forums, so bear with me. To anyone who read the books (or even just played the Halo 3 single player and watched the opening cut scene) they would know that Cortana chose to work with John-117 not because he was the strongest, fastest, or smartest, but because he was the luckiest. And even though in game it doesn't seem this way because of the player, I can't help but think that in the story that "luck" is a bit of divine intervention. I mean the crap that MC does, come on, that has to at least make you give it a thought. And although I won't go into detail, the same concept can be given for games like Half Life, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, even GTA. For those characters to realistically be able to do any of the things they do, they've got to be pretty damn lucky, and therefore, again, some people would say "someone is looking out for them".

Anyone else see my point?

 

[LOOY]

I will say that it made me seriously consider what the Escapist represents

Free-speech

I wouldn't say Black & White is anti-theist either.
The old Norse and Greek religions had flawed gods for example.
Several gods with limited power who where able to make mistakes, and sometimes compete over power.

It was ofcourse not very supportive of the Christian religion, and for that I'm thankful.
I hate that religion, Greeks and Scandinavians knew how to make religion interesting.

Yup, Pagan gods were much cooler, and alot more likely if you think about it.

 

[darrinwright]

So like I said, interesting, but felt a bit like you were grasping at straws to me.

this.

 

[Agamemnon582bc]

Was there a point to this article other than, "lol, religion"? I thought this site was about video games.

Free-speech

Really? They seem to do a lot of banning for that around here (especially if you say anything bad about the moderating team).

 

[ZeroMachine]

...[snip]...
Anyone else see my point?

No. Luck doesn't imply divine intervention, divine intervention doesn't imply luck.

I'm not saying it definitely did, I'm saying it could. I can still see you're points, but I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't mean it definitely meant that. I personally don't even believe in "luck". Some people might feel that way though. Although I'm not religious myself, I grew up around a lot of religious people and have a few religious friends, so I know that some people take luck as the guiding hand of god.

 

[xitel]

I seriously doubt that just because there is no God present in the happenings of a game, that makes the game take place in an aetheistic world, much less an anti-theistic one. Who's to say that the god in the game world just chooses not to interact with the player's character? How many times in present day reality does a giant hand reach out of the sky and pluck a person out of the way of a car? Just because God does not directly intervene doesn't mean he does not exist.

Plus, the fact that god games limit your powers is true, but again, it does not mean you are not a god, per se. Maybe God wanted to have fun, so he limited his own power before interacting with his world. There's an old paradox: "If God can do anything and make anything, can he make a rock so heavy that he could not lift it?" If God is considered to have unlimited power, then he could easily limit his own power temporarily. It's an abstract and confusing concept, but it makes sense.

A good way to reconcile the article's claims that because God does not intervene, he does not exist is to assume that every games is a god game, in that you the player are assuming the role of god. The difference between games is how God chooses to manifest himself in the game world, be it as an Italian plumber in a fungus monarchy, or as himself with a somewhat limited sphere of influence.

As to the god-as-villain idea, I think the article's opening claims that if god was really in a game he would be all-powerful defeats the idea that the only way god can exist in a game is as a villain. If he was the same omniscient God the article claims does not exist in games, the villain wold be unbeatable. Instead, he is a god-like entity, not a god. So even if a god-villain exists, unless the player character is a god as well, then it still does not mean that a god is present in a game.