MMOs Need More Bastards
- Thread starter Mike Kayatta
- Start date
EVE currently has some ongoing shenanigans where an alliance is trying to crash the economy for a particularly useful resource. By stockpiling it and then killing anyone trying to mine for it.
And it's working.
And it's working.
This is the best article I have read on the escapist in a long time. I played ultima online back when it was lawless and loved it. Years later I bought a wow subscription under the impression that MMO's had grown more immersive and polished over the years and it hurt to discover that the experience I had fallen in love with was all but dead.
EVE is a good example of the kind of environment Ultima had, Star Wars Galaxies prior to the New Game Experience also had some nice elements of player agency that you wouldn't find in a modern MMO.
What's the point in living in a dead world? Why do people pay to be the slaves to masters who can change the rules of the game at will?
I'd much rather be murdered or cheated by another player than by a thoughtless algorithm building invisible walls and siccing powerful mobs onto me to keep me in line.
EVE is a good example of the kind of environment Ultima had, Star Wars Galaxies prior to the New Game Experience also had some nice elements of player agency that you wouldn't find in a modern MMO.
What's the point in living in a dead world? Why do people pay to be the slaves to masters who can change the rules of the game at will?
I'd much rather be murdered or cheated by another player than by a thoughtless algorithm building invisible walls and siccing powerful mobs onto me to keep me in line.
There are plenty of places to get your PvP fix around, if you're looking for player conflict. However, I believe you are fundamentally wrong when you say what players want is completely unregulated free-will and open conflict. If they did, games that offer that - like EVE - would dominate the market. They don't; I think consumers have voted.
I wouldnt touch wow etc. with yours but Eve interested me for exactly the reasons mentioned in the article. Having said that the idea of playing and the act of playing were poles apart. It just felt like a second job without the pay, having to log in at set times to change skills, mining, etc.
Painful.
Painful.
If these sandbox games were really as viable as pundits say, then they wouldn't have to spend so much time trying to convince us. I've seen a lot of these types of articles and discussions recently, but a lot of it seems like rose-tinted nostalgia.
There's something else going on here. The real issue is not the loss of true sandbox games. Games like Mortal Online, Wurm Online and EVE all cater to that niche. What's actually bugging the people who make these complaints is that the big dogs aren't sandboxes. They don't just want more sandbox games, they want lots of sandbox games so that they have their pick and so that more money will be put into big AAA sandboxes. Yet they want this in a market that's trending towards less investment (F2P) and is trying to court new, non-MMO players to turn a profit. In the current climate, games that require more commitment and investment aren't nearly as viable as they used to be. The vast majority of players are looking for a weekend diversion or something they can unwind with a couple hours a day. Yes there are players that want to really live in another world, but most just want to vacation in one. They want a room at the resort, they don't want to work there.
There's something else going on here. The real issue is not the loss of true sandbox games. Games like Mortal Online, Wurm Online and EVE all cater to that niche. What's actually bugging the people who make these complaints is that the big dogs aren't sandboxes. They don't just want more sandbox games, they want lots of sandbox games so that they have their pick and so that more money will be put into big AAA sandboxes. Yet they want this in a market that's trending towards less investment (F2P) and is trying to court new, non-MMO players to turn a profit. In the current climate, games that require more commitment and investment aren't nearly as viable as they used to be. The vast majority of players are looking for a weekend diversion or something they can unwind with a couple hours a day. Yes there are players that want to really live in another world, but most just want to vacation in one. They want a room at the resort, they don't want to work there.
I played some Mortal Online, a real joy ... here I was practising swinging my blade at a tree ( I understood merely swinging would improve your character use of the weapon ) and a fellow gamer deliberately stood in front of my swing, took a hit and used the ultimate spell in the game... he typed 'guards', then looted my corpse after the gaurdians of justice had beaten me to a pulp. True skill that.
It happens in every game where you give the player too much freedom, Mortal Online I got ganked so often it took me 2 weeks to find a tree to chop down wood, in Age of Conan the players would wait at the spawning point of an area and gank the incoming player before he had actually loaded into the world... he would be dead before he could see the action.
Players wouldnt just act like thieves and bandits in the game world, they would abuse and exploit every glitch possible, hack the game if they could do so safely and pick on new players because its easy... they aint playing the game, they are having fun by purely ruining the game for others, I mean why kill a new player that doesnt have anything of value to take ?
In EvE they have a competition called Hulkageddon... the aim of the game is for players to attack and destroy players that are mining, not to steal the ore or materials but purely as a score tally, x amount of z mining class ship... the ones who destroyed the most was the winner, hell there was even prizes.
That was a lot of fun for the miners you could imagine, as a Hulk costed a lot in ISK plus took a relatively long time to skill up to use... co-incidently the ones who organised the event used to sell many Hulks, and the price of the Hulks shot up.
The true problem is to allow freedom to play as a evil character, but not be a griefer and that is the hard part.
It happens in every game where you give the player too much freedom, Mortal Online I got ganked so often it took me 2 weeks to find a tree to chop down wood, in Age of Conan the players would wait at the spawning point of an area and gank the incoming player before he had actually loaded into the world... he would be dead before he could see the action.
Players wouldnt just act like thieves and bandits in the game world, they would abuse and exploit every glitch possible, hack the game if they could do so safely and pick on new players because its easy... they aint playing the game, they are having fun by purely ruining the game for others, I mean why kill a new player that doesnt have anything of value to take ?
In EvE they have a competition called Hulkageddon... the aim of the game is for players to attack and destroy players that are mining, not to steal the ore or materials but purely as a score tally, x amount of z mining class ship... the ones who destroyed the most was the winner, hell there was even prizes.
That was a lot of fun for the miners you could imagine, as a Hulk costed a lot in ISK plus took a relatively long time to skill up to use... co-incidently the ones who organised the event used to sell many Hulks, and the price of the Hulks shot up.
The true problem is to allow freedom to play as a evil character, but not be a griefer and that is the hard part.
Yeah, pretty much this.krellen said:
Sandbox games have always been niche. The vast majority of MMO players are just looking to spend time running around a pretty world with a pretty character, hanging out with friends and generally engaging in good old-fashioned escapism. They definitely don't want their pleasant time to be interrupted by douchebags. This is why casual-friendly themepark MMOs will always be the most popular side of the genre.
For people who want games like the article mentioned, EVE is currently out, ArcheAge will be out soon enough, and Ultima Online is still hanging on. Any more than that and you'll start saturating the market.
Ultima Online is still around, yes, but as I mentioned in the article, it no longer caters to hardcore players. And I know about EVE, but honestly that's just about it. Personally, I don't like EVE, and no, two options (maybe one, I haven't looked into ArcheAge) does not count as "saturating the market." We currently have tons and tons of games using the WoW casual model. I'm not saying that just because a game allows jerks, it is therefore good. That would be like saying "I like sword games, therefore any game with a sword is good." I feel like the market shifted before developers even had the chance to explore the possibilities of working within a free will framework. Like any other business, new ventures tend to follow success. That's the only reason you see 100 games model off of the same rule set, not because consumers have somehow spoken. Yes, more people play Bejeweled than even something as popular as Uncharted, but does that mean Naughty Dog should close down? With only one current viable option, one filled with problems I might add, there's no way you can say that only the WoW model works. I'm waiting for a mainstream game handled by a major company to step up to the plate and try it again. UO wasn't perfect--far from it--but it morphed before allowing the system to evolve and refine. We lost an entire system of gameplay because of that.EmperorSubcutaneous said:
Ugh, far too many care about what makes them feel good then rather what's fun.
I played UO. Yes we had griefers, we had people who'd camp the moongates(think public mage portals in the middle of the woods) and every kind of problem.
However. I played a merchant and it was still fun for me. You know why? Because I played it smart and not like an idiot.
Easiest example is seeing someone walk up to a guy covered in black wielding a large halberd and saying "Hey can you give me stuff?" I've seen it happen. So when I go outside of town and see said noobie's body looted, cut apart and the like I laugh it off as he killed himself.
Playing in a Sandbox is fun. You just can't play like an idiot which most people don't bother turning on the brain when they play mmo's like WoW. You know how you deal with griefers? You have fighter friends who know that they get discounts for dealing with people. You build reputations as being protected and willing to barter rather then fight if given a chance( REAL REPUTATIONS NOT BLOODY FACTION MEASUREMENTS). People like you some people don't you deal with it and you play it smart, you know if the road is covered in bodies, time to leave the road and find a new path.
It's just not for this generations easy work, good reward gamers. They've been playing games that for the most part don't care if you are being an idiot or being the smartest gamer on the server. So you end up with a whole lot of gamers who wanderer around a "dangerous" world completely oblivious to any threats because they have no threats and if they do encounter a threat they consider it a exploit of a griefing and not gameplay. It's sad.
Skill balance issues aside(tank mage, tank magers everywhere..) UO was a great idea and it's sad it's still the most open mmo I can think of.(Sorry eve, you don't have a cooking and begging skill..)
I played UO. Yes we had griefers, we had people who'd camp the moongates(think public mage portals in the middle of the woods) and every kind of problem.
However. I played a merchant and it was still fun for me. You know why? Because I played it smart and not like an idiot.
Easiest example is seeing someone walk up to a guy covered in black wielding a large halberd and saying "Hey can you give me stuff?" I've seen it happen. So when I go outside of town and see said noobie's body looted, cut apart and the like I laugh it off as he killed himself.
Playing in a Sandbox is fun. You just can't play like an idiot which most people don't bother turning on the brain when they play mmo's like WoW. You know how you deal with griefers? You have fighter friends who know that they get discounts for dealing with people. You build reputations as being protected and willing to barter rather then fight if given a chance( REAL REPUTATIONS NOT BLOODY FACTION MEASUREMENTS). People like you some people don't you deal with it and you play it smart, you know if the road is covered in bodies, time to leave the road and find a new path.
It's just not for this generations easy work, good reward gamers. They've been playing games that for the most part don't care if you are being an idiot or being the smartest gamer on the server. So you end up with a whole lot of gamers who wanderer around a "dangerous" world completely oblivious to any threats because they have no threats and if they do encounter a threat they consider it a exploit of a griefing and not gameplay. It's sad.
Skill balance issues aside(tank mage, tank magers everywhere..) UO was a great idea and it's sad it's still the most open mmo I can think of.(Sorry eve, you don't have a cooking and begging skill..)
I played Conan which was pretty much like this and the result was no one ever got anything done or made any friends because everyone was fighting each other. Ultimately it failed...
I much prefer the set factions of horde and alliance in WOW tbh rather than a crazy and pointless free for all.
I much prefer the set factions of horde and alliance in WOW tbh rather than a crazy and pointless free for all.
EVE Online as has been said before. PVP with real tangible risk and reward is awesome, shame fantasy mmos are too concerned with making players grind and run instances to give them real pvp.
A fantasy MMO with similar systems to EVE
99% player driven economy
gear 'fittings'
passive game progress like the skill training in EVE
real risk in PVP/PVE
no hand holding of players like gear protection, banning scammers, banning lite griefers and completely safe zones
no classes, everyone has access to the same arsenal potentially
and the main thing that every fantasy mmo I've ever played is missing, actual exploration with hidden non static sites like maybe temples, ruins, villages etc.
That would be tits
A fantasy MMO with similar systems to EVE
99% player driven economy
gear 'fittings'
passive game progress like the skill training in EVE
real risk in PVP/PVE
no hand holding of players like gear protection, banning scammers, banning lite griefers and completely safe zones
no classes, everyone has access to the same arsenal potentially
and the main thing that every fantasy mmo I've ever played is missing, actual exploration with hidden non static sites like maybe temples, ruins, villages etc.
That would be tits
I applaud you, as I also like gameplay such as this. However, the game I played was a more recent one. Minecraft, and on anarchy servers, not the other ones. I enjoyed the almost schizophrneic nature and horrific atmosphere the game articulated, but I myself was probably the closest thing to a "good guy". I've only griefed twice, I've stolen from people maybe five times, and both of those crimes were necessary for my survival. It was a dog eat creeper world, and one I couldn't get enough of. Sadly, it seems the anarchy servers' fate will be similar to Ultima's. I have yet to find an anarchy server that I enjoy. Most feel too heavily modded or have too much of a bad playerbase (by bad, I mean people who prefer to add mods to the server)