A Beginner's Guide to Dark Souls - 7 Steps to Sucking Less

[EvilRoy]

I have well over 100 hours clocked on the game. Its a good game. I like it. However, that does not somehow magically excuse the problems I have found with it. None of my complaints are objective, they're my opinion. To paraphrase an old quote: of course they are my opinion, I fucking wrote them - I do not need to say IMO after every sentence.

I've been around enough on the internet to know when someone is stating an opinion like a fact, and your posts reek of it. When you say something like:

CONSISTENCY = GOOD. When a character model wields a MASSIVE HAMMER with relative ease, and then performs a weighty and INELEGANT attack with a weapon less than a fifth its size despite MEETING all skill requirements, the game demonstrates VISUAL INCONSISTENCY in how the character model relates to its own environment, producing an impression of ARBITRARY and POORLY thought out gameplay mechanics. INCONSISTENCY = BAD. CONSISTENCY is not a MADE UP expectation, it is a HALLMARK of a WELL MADE game.

You are not saying "Well, this is my opinion of what a good game should be" you are screaming "THIS IS WHAT A GOOD GAME IS AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE WRONG."

Nope, just realized that the only way for me to effectively communicate that my complaints were consistent with each other to you, and therefore not invalid as you had stated, was to spell things out as unambiguously as possible. This means eliminating 'fluff' words that change the implications of a sentence. I figured you would come back with this, but I also knew it was the only way to get the idea across efficiently.

Others shouldn't need to do this, especially when it isn't readily apparent as to whether the conversion is linear or not. Which it isn't, also kind of a problem.

So you didn't ACTUALLY have this problem, you're just supposing that some people were unable to do it. I see.

Not sure how you got that idea. I assumed I was included in 'others' when you said it.

No, this is a legitimate issue I found when playing the game for the first time. Being under the impression that the game tracks things that actually matter, I typically avoided weapons that provided a downgrade in any particular area beyond a certain amount. The opacity prevalent in the scaling area made it difficult to decide what weapons I should keep or toss because I had no idea how it translated to shit that matters.

And yet it sounds like you were able to complete the game just fine. Again, sounds like you didn't actually have a problem, you were just too stubborn to look up a full explanation of the mechanics and do some projections.

I actually was simply incapable of looking it up at the time. Being stuck out in the field meant no internet to find cheat sheets on. Being able to complete a game just fine despite its flaws is not an excuse for the flaws.

At this point I'm not claiming anything, I'm just trying to get you to understand my complaints, why they aren't contradictory, and why I feel they are valid issues for a person to have - something that you originally seemed to take issue with but now apparently don't?

It seems you didn't even encounter many of these so called issues yourself. Which is odd that you'd argue so vociferously about them.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that none of this stuff actually happened to me. I'm just giving up. You don't agree. Fine. At least now I think you understand the crux of my arguments well enough to not mistake two disparate statements as contradictory.

And you shouldn't blame Megaman or Capcom, because those are well instituted control systems. Needing to quickly tap a button twice instead of once from a holding position for a very finicky movement is not what I consider well instituted, particularly when this can lead to death and loss of progress at a moments notice.

If I jump into a pit in Megaman because I had to run halfway out over the ledge in order to make the jump and jumped slightly too soon I can lose all sorts of progression. And hell, the bosses in Megaman are "trial and error" too. Hmmm....I wonder if you call Megaman a poorly developed game?

Depends, did you jump too soon because the button press required you to lift your thumb and press downwards twice, distinctly yet quickly so the gamepad didn't confuse your input for a roll?

Is the expectation that weapons that look similar behave similarly so bizarre? Am I really so foolish for believing my increasing strength should translate into smoother more elegant usage with larger weapons, when the game makes it very clear that not meeting stat requirements makes you swing a weapon like an idiot, or weighing too much makes you roll like a grounded trout? Is asking that visual dissonance be addressed the same as asking that all weapons should behave the same?

Alarien already deconstructed this. Did you have an actual example or just yet another complaint about something that didn't actually happen to you?

Well I guess you understood some of my arguments at least. This one clearly not still, considering the fact that it happens to everyone who plays the game equally whether they agree its a problem or not, but I already just wrote out a post on this for Alarien so I'm not going to retype it.

 

[Alarien]

Okay, lets do this. I hope you'll forgive my fatigue here, but in addition to a full working day I'm on to explanation of my complaints number three or four. And with yet work to go tonight, I'm afraid I'll be typing quickly so don't mind the odd typo, and mention specifically if I word something in a way that you don't get. As much as I feel you deserve an earnest and respectful response for being good about this, its already going to be a late night.

My primary complaints with the UI has to do with very poor inventory organization both on character and in the upgrade screen, an irritating habit of the game of auto equipping consumables to quick-use, un-intuitive item storage that had very limited use, plus complaints on item comparisons ect., and the stat screen which I believe you are referring to specifically.

Using END as an example I'll go into my issues with levelling up. Speaking from my experience as a first time player, the END bar was great. Tick marks make it immediately visually obvious how much each attack or roll or block takes off the bar, so its easy to gauge on the fly how much I can afford for a given manure.

The issue I found with the level up screen was twofold, though they came in phases. The item you noted with capping the bar came as phase two, and since you noted the issue there I won't go into it.

The first phase was the simple, straightforward question of 'how many tick marks do I get per level I invest in END'. This was a large issue for me early on in the game thanks in dual parts to having very few souls to expend on levelling due to consistent death, and having little concept what individual stats are worth levelling up, as every stat appeared to uniformly increase the stats on the right with two single exceptions (HP/END). Simply levelling up once and looking closely at the stamina bar wasn't helpful as the increase was small enough I couldn't visually distinguish the improvement, but I lacked the ability to level in bulk to make the distinction more obvious. Additionally I had heard there are diminishing returns on levelling, but without a concept of the stat maximum this is a largely unhelpful and potentially misleading statement.

Simply having the health/stamina bars on screen when levelling and visually demonstrating the increase would have completely alleviated the issue, but the problem existed and I noted it along with my general UI complaints.

Ok, this is the most you've articulated that issue in this thread from what I've seen (not a criticism, just a statement), and now that you've made it really clear, I understand exactly what you're complaining about. If I'm reading this right, and correct me if I'm wrong, for end/vit you would like to see how the number on the stat screen would directly translate into the tick marks in the main game UI? Correct?

Alright, before I wasn't sure if you were talking about about just general increase, but now that you've talked about translating to tick marks, I think I understand this better. Does 5 vit = 1 visible tick of actual health? Does 10 = 1? What is the translation from stat to visible health? Look I realize you've said something before, but bear with me, I'm not being obtuse. Visible "health" is a bit obscure, because the bar movement as a % of your screen can be a bit hard to gauge. Visible tick marks from stat numbers is an objective to objective conversion.

I call "fair enough" on your point. I have already stated that I am not a fanboy of the UI and I agree that it can be improved. I can see that a more objective conversion from number to the very visible tick marks on the screen would be visibly more intuitive that the current system. For those who are unclear on what we're talking about, you can see the tick marks in the top left.

Also no argument on stat capping. If the in-game tooltips said that there were diminishing returns after 50 (possibly with some after 40, I can't remember), that would be useful.

On weapon scaling:

The matter in this case was that I found it inconsistent with the rest of the stat system. Certainly spending the souls and time to work through a guess and check to see was an option, however, two weapons - a spear that scales B and a short sword that scales C (I'm just guessing, no time to look it up) - can't be meaningfully compared side by side, making the scaling system difficult to use in weapon choice for a first time player. Surely a B is better than a C, but is it better by enough to justify changing weapons and accepting the different moveset and attack speed?

Perhaps the fact that scaling was expressed as a letter rather than a number, like all other weapon stats, should have been a solid indication that it was a non-critical aspect of the game, but at the time it seemed to indicate just the opposite.

I can see the complaint, but I am going to start with counter that you might very well hate. I apologize, but I think we're going to need to accept one thing before we start, like it or not: this is a Japanese game. "Well, no shit Sherlock" most of you probably just said, but Japanese games have long used the letter system to attempt to categorize levels of quality with S oddly being highest. That's not necessarily important here, but for those who aren't aware of that already, it's one of those things to just be aware of.

Can two weapons of different quality be compared side by side? Basic answer is "yes, and no." Ugh. Everyone just groaned again.

Ok, so, let's go from here.

First, the stat screen UI: There is a R1 and R2 attack rating for your currently equipped weapon and offhand. If you change weapons, you can immediately see the difference in your current attack rating for that weapon. You can also look at the weapon to see the stat scaling (s through e) rating, if it has it, for str/dex/int/faith. You can also see how it splits physical/magic/light/dark damage.

So, why then, do some weapons have higher attack rating even though they "scale" better (i.e. A vs B) and my level in that stat may actually be higher? (aka, 150 attack rating with a C scaling Claymore vs 225 attack rating with a D scaling Black Knight Halberd) Well, each weapon has a base damage, and it scales from there. Some weapons just plain hit harder than others, even in the same weapon class. Obviously, different weapon classes also hit very differently with light fast weapons hitting for low base damage and big heavy weapons hitting for higher base damage.

For newer players, this can take a bit of getting used to, because you often don't see the benefit of higher scaling weapons until higher level. For example, at base requirement 32 str/18 dex a BK Halberd with D/E str/dex scaling will single hit MUCH harder than a Claymore with C/C scaling. That's because the base damage of the BK Halberd hits like a truck. The Claymore, on the other hand, will eventually outdamage it, when your character's str/dex get closer to 50/40. The D/E scaling of the BKH cannot keep up with the C/C of the claymore.

The big problem here, and I can concede the problem, is that there is no clear "base damage" stat that you can easily see, unless you have a level 1 character with no stats but all the items to just look at. However, I will offer that there is a really reasonable way to simply test it out and that's to just go to Firelink and smack some hollows around with each weapon.

Should a new player have to do that? If you say no, I can understand it, but I would also say that, considering how deep the weapon/upgrade/stat system is, combined with movesets, I would counter that it's completely reasonable to do so.

Is it intuitive? Not really, but it's not so opaque that it creates actual problems. It could be improved, but I can't really agree that it's a failure in the design.

On visual representations and weapon move-sets:

My complaint here was a matter of visual clarity in how the character handles weapons of different weight classes, and how that breaks down as the game progresses.

At an early stage the game clearly demonstrates that being overburdened results in the famous and loved 'fat roll', and lacking required stats for wielding a weapon results in swinging the weapon as though it is made of solid lead. It proceeds to demonstrate that being less burdened translates to various improved speeds, and having the proper stats to use a weapon results in visually normal wielding of the weapon.

The problem with this is that when wielding weapons such as the Zweihander, or the black knight sword, we see the character having a bit of trouble throwing the blade around. My complaint here is that at one point or another the character becomes able to lift and attack with weapons with much higher minimum stats - Smough's Hammer being a particularly extreme example of this requiring STR of 50 (off the top of my head, correct if necessary). Visually, however, I found that it no longer makes sense for the character to wield the Zweihander as though it is very heavy (it is, I'm sure) when that same character can lift and attack with weapons requiring strength on the level of Smough's Hammer.

While I appreciate that the game must maintain balance, why can scaling not be translated into a visually coherent image? A slow moving heavy attack makes sense early on in the game, where presumably the character is only at the brink of lifting and striking with a given weapon, but later at the mentioned levels, why is that same character having so much difficulty striking with a weapon that must weigh less than half of another he was just holding? It seems arbitrary and silly to me, given the games earlier lessons that stats and burden weight definitely translate into obvious visual cues.

Okay, okay, got it. So if a weapon requires 32/18 (I love the BKH, can you tell?) then it being a bit cumbersome (it always is a little wild with the opening of the R1) makes sense at that bare minimum, but at 50/50 it should represent differently?

Visually? Fair enough.

Design problem or flaw? I say no, for the same reason you brought up. It's a balance issue, and here what the devs are balancing is very much NOT the stats. It's the moveset for the weapon.

Each weapons un-encumbered moveset is designed very specifically to balance the use of the weapon vs. the use of other heavier or faster weapons. There's obviously a risk/reward issue. I understand that you know this already. If this were entirely a PVE game, I would completely agree with you. However, please be sure to consider the PVP aspect. Dark Souls is very much a PVP game, just as much as it is PVE, and the moveset of weapons is extremely important in PVP match ups. Timing an attack vs. a boss mob is about you and a digital representation of code. Timing against a person is your game and your time vs. their game and their time. Having the moveset change between 32str and 50str presents an unreasonable balance change in a game that attempts to pit players of vastly different soul level against each other (VASTLY. I'm Darkmoon and I invade people 100+ SL below me all the time, because that's my job as an avenger. They still have a chance, believe it or not, because of weapon/moveset balancing).

Calculating your chance to hit someone in PVP is not about stats, but about understanding movesets and weapon strengths and weaknesses (your own and theirs). The higher SL player will get the benefit of their scaling, but not of a moveset change, because, if that were the case, then that would eliminate any chance the lower SL player has.

You might also argue that the moveset's timing and effectiveness doesn't have to change, but, fairly, is it reasonable to ask the Dev's to program a higher level moveset that looks less cumbersome? It might be cool, but it seems a bit much to ask.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject, now that we're talking openly and evenly. I apologize if I came off a bit passive aggressive, I personally hate passive-aggressives, but that's probably because my post wasn't actually directed at you. It's what I see as the opposite side of the "smug community" argument, in that there is a huge community of people who hate the game unreasonably or ignorantly. Clearly, that's not you, but I would argue that your arguments get mirrored a LOT and with a lot less discussion and knowledge.

I don't get on people for not liking Dark Souls or having intelligent reasons for not liking it (you've sold me that you actually enjoy it, anyway). I have a problem with people showing up in every Dark Souls forum and thread and declaring the game "objectively" bad, when they can do nothing of the sort.

 

[EvilRoy]

Well if your master plan was to sound arrogant you knocked it out of the park.

You've managed to throw in some pretty unbelievably condescending statements in this thread yourself, I think I'm allowed to sound like a jackass now and then.

Not sure how you got that idea. I assumed I was included in 'others' when you said it.

So you're unable to do simple math on the stats screen and visualize percent changes to your stamina bar and wanted the game to do it for you? Stop dancing around the bush and please tell us as unambiguously as possible.

Plus 1 right there.

Yes. I feel that the game would have better done its job of communicating the effects of stat increases through a simple visual demonstration, and I feel that its failure to do so was to the detriment my and potentially others enjoyment of the game, particularly considering the already high barrier to entry present. I get that this wasn't a problem for you. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but not everyone is you dude.

But what was the flaw? That you weren't getting as much attack power as you thought you should? You clearly had enough to do what needed to be done in the actual game. Again, be clear here, because it sounds like you're just angry that you *couldn't* look it up.

Its pretty readily identifiable as a flaw when the game introduces a mechanic and then proceeds to never delve into how it actually works. Maybe you were able just to ignore it, but as a first time player I found it unhelpful and annoying. Did I want to look it up? Yeah. Should the game just have explained it? Also yeah.

Anyone who played Demon's Souls would have known about this beforehand too....

I didn't, and shouldn't have needed to. Its not even a direct sequel.

I think I've hit upon a pretty great question and I note you dodged it. Megaman is a game with automatic deaths littering the levels, trial and error gameplay, and potential for significant lost progress if you die.

Do you think Megaman is a not a well made game?

There is nothing inherently wrong with trial and error gameplay, so long as the upcoming challenges are reasonably foreshadowed. Did megaman do this? I don't know. Never played it. What I do know however, from a fast net search, is that megaman had dedicated controls for most actions, meaning that the issues I have with the controls in Dark Souls aren't readily comparable.

At any rate, this is it. You win, I'm an ass (people knew this anyway), my complaints don't count because whatever, long story short work to do, thanks for keeping it more or less together for the conversation - I actually mean that one relatively sincerely, I realize that I was coming off a bit of a prick, but something about your posts was reading to me like just the most condescending counter statements possible and with a divided attention it was too easy to slip into jackassery in response.

 

[Thanatos2k]

Yes. I feel that the game would have better done its job of communicating the effects of stat increases through a simple visual demonstration, and I feel that its failure to do so was to the detriment my and potentially others enjoyment of the game, particularly considering the already high barrier to entry present. I get that this wasn't a problem for you. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but not everyone is you dude.

Thank you for admitting that it's just something you don't like and not really a problem with the game.

Its pretty readily identifiable as a flaw when the game introduces a mechanic and then proceeds to never delve into how it actually works. Maybe you were able just to ignore it, but as a first time player I found it unhelpful and annoying. Did I want to look it up? Yeah. Should the game just have explained it? Also yeah.

What exactly did you need explained? That the weapon damage scales according to the stats mentioned on the inventory screen, and that higher grades scale better than lower grades? It sounds like you understood that just fine. So what didn't game explain?

I didn't, and shouldn't have needed to. Its not even a direct sequel.

That's like saying Megaman 2 isn't a direct sequel. (Edit: That's like saying Street Fighter 3 wasn't a direct sequel)

There is nothing inherently wrong with trial and error gameplay, so long as the upcoming challenges are reasonably foreshadowed. Did megaman do this? I don't know. Never played it. What I do know however, from a fast net search, is that megaman had dedicated controls for most actions, meaning that the issues I have with the controls in Dark Souls aren't readily comparable.

You've....never played Megaman? Any of them? I..uh...ok.

 

[newwiseman]

Been a long time since I played Dark Souls, the only thing I really remember is taking an hour to break the dragon's tail by sniping it from under the bridge with a really weak bow... and I didn't even use the dragon tail sword because I preferred the katanas, fast high damage, dodge and roll aced all the endgamers coming for my head. Even the ones with freaking 20+ full heals.

 

[EvilRoy]

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject, now that we're talking openly and evenly. I apologize if I came off a bit passive aggressive, I personally hate passive-aggressives, but that's probably because my post wasn't actually directed at you. It's what I see as the opposite side of the "smug community" argument, in that there is a huge community of people who hate the game unreasonably or ignorantly. Clearly, that's not you, but I would argue that your arguments get mirrored a LOT and with a lot less discussion and knowledge.

I don't get on people for not liking Dark Souls or having intelligent reasons for not liking it (you've sold me that you actually enjoy it, anyway). I have a problem with people showing up in every Dark Souls forum and thread and declaring the game "objectively" bad, when they can do nothing of the sort.

Your responses are all pretty reasonable, and I don't have much to say to them on a point by point basis. I suppose my primary response is that I was thinking back to my first days of playing this game, far and away from the civilized world (ie internet) and recalling those things that I found troublesome or annoying. Would I say these issues are gamebreaking or unforgivable flaws? No, not really - I did beat the game in spite of them and still very much enjoyed it (I'm actually a little sad that GFWL is going down, since it may spell the end of MP just when the sequel will be rekindling interest in the original.) But I did find them to be flaws, and the assertion or implication that this game is perfect does bother me, especially when the game already has a bit of a PR problem with some gaming groups. I do think the game would have been better and more accessible, no matter how slightly, had these items been addressed.

Don't worry about coming about coming off passive-aggressive, I'm well aware that I came off as a bit of a prick, but such as life on the internet.

[Who uses the Moonlight Butterfly Horn though?]

 

[Alarien]

Hah, that character is my sorcerer mess-around. I never played a dedicated one before that. She had the Moonlight Butterfly Horn almost entirely for really weak trash mobs for a little while. However, I almost never used it. Despite what you see equipped there, she was mostly running around with the best catalyst for her SL and the Dragon Crest shield.

I'm honestly not even sure why I still have it equipped at Priscilla. Probably hadn't taken the time at the bonfire to upgrade Velka's Rapier, which, for a sorc, is pretty nice as a trash killer.

Also, the MB's shield is terrible, so... horn it was for melee damage when necessary to that point, which was rare.

Hopefully GFWL doesn't kill off multiplayer. From has said that they are looking into options for the PC. Hopefully that means that once DS2 is out, we might see a Steamworks patch.

Maybe a bit hopeful, but considering that they ported the game solely on a petition, they might devote the resources to keep their rabid community from throwing a collective fit.

 

[SilverBullets000]

I feel I would have enjoyed the game (and actually beat it) more if there had been a freaking manual explaining things to me. Basic controls and how things work. So many times I didn't know how to do something and if I could have just looked it up in the manual it would have been solved. Fun fact: I never did figure out how to use magic. My character would try to cast the spell, stick their hand out, and when nothing happened, she would look at her hand and scratch the back of her head. I know you're supposed to have like the spell and totem or whatever equipped, but even then it wouldn't work. I was at the halfway point in the game by then so I couldn't go back and do the tutorial again, and when I asked for help, people mocked me. The answer I remember the most is: "God, you got to level 30 and you don't know how to use magic? Did you figure out how to use you sword at least? All you do is hit the attack button." So yeah, I gave up shortly after that because no one would help me. Something like this would have been very helpful for me back then.

I don't know if you've figured it out or not, but just in case you haven't:

In order to use spells, you need a catalyst. If you didn't specifically pick the mage class (or the Dark Souls equivalent, I can't be bothered to look it up), then you can buy one by going down to New Londo, taking a right and walking toward a hollow lying on his side until you see a flight of stairs leading down, and talking to the mage through the cell window there.

There are three types of magic in game: Magic, Pyromancy, and Miracles. All require a different item to use. If you don't have the item, they won't work. Likewise, some Magic and Miracles are off limits until you level up their stats (Intelligence for Magic, and Faith for Miracles). In order to tell if you have enough stats to use a spell, look under the particular spell at the little yellow symbols. The wand is representative of magic, and the...Smash Bros. Hit effect (I guess that's supposed to be light) is representative of faith.

Magic scales with Intelligence, and some magic requires you to have a certain level of intelligence before you're able to use it. All magic spells have a scroll behind the symbol represented on your HUD. As I said before, they require a catalyst in order to be used. The man who sells you one also sells a few spells too.

Pyromancies will have a tattered brown scroll behind the symbol and require a pyromancy glove. You need a specific NPC to level up your glove because the magic's attack power doesn't scale with your intelligence, but all pyromancy spells will be usable from the moment you obtain them. This NPC is later in the game, after you defeat the third boss and head down into a sewer-like area. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLn2RoABxHg

Miracles will require a talisman, which can be obtained by joining the Way of the White covenant through a cleric in the very first shrine area. Likewise, you can also buy miracles from him, but only after joining his covenant. Miracles are reliant on Faith and are more for healing than offense. Just like magic, some miracles require a certain level to use.

So, yeah. Sounds to me as if your stats were under leveled or you trying to use the wrong item to cast your spell. Hope that helps.

EDIT: Also, later items in the game will allow you to augment weapons to scale with your magic/faith. In fact, the guy in New Londo I mentioned earlier will allow you to forge a magic weapon from a +5 weapon, so be sure to upgrade that as soon as possible.

 

[mavrik]

Interesting, so if I go to mavrik's post.

1) UI complaint, no explanation, just "ugly and worst"
2) Unintuitive controls (no further explanation)
3) dying due to camera or lock on silliness
4) slog through the same opponents over and over
5) deal with character responsiveness (90 year old grandpa) comment

Is that an example of legitimate complaints that are being dismissed semantically? I'd say that those are, for the most part, declarations of "this sucks" without much real explanation and display either a lack of game knowledge, or a general dismissiveness of the game or of learning anything about it. However, I'll respond to it as well as I think I can:

1) I'm not going argue whether the UI is ugly or not. It actually can reasonably seen as "ugly." I don't necessarily think so, but I also agree it's not particularly sleek and, due to the lack of scaling, is a bit more obtrusive than necessary. Worst? Worst is a pretty large declaration. I am sure we can find more than a few that are far worse.

2) Unintuitive controls: I'll even give this a half hearted +1. Mostly because the controller control scheme is a bit weird at first. Lock on on the rstick button (actually works well on the 360 controller, pretty ass on the PS controller)? R1 and R2 bumper/trigger for attack? A button is a generic "interact" and jump/sprint tied to the same? Yeah, sure it's not overly intuitive. It's also not a hard interface. But, hey, sure, I can see the argument, compared to a lot of other games.

3) Dying due to camera/lock on: Yep, it happens. There's no excuse for it, and I can give it a big thumbs up. Nothing like locking on to an enemy who leaps to their death and drags you with it. Really kinda crappy. Thankfully, it's fairly rare, but there nonetheless.

4) Slog through same opponents (after death): Why? There's actually very few places where the distance between bonfires and and/or bosses is ever particularly far. In fact, the base game's bonfires are really reasonably close and, when it comes right down to it you can run past almost EVERY enemy in the game to get to the next checkpoint. The only 2 places in the entire game that actually feel like a challenge to work past all the enemies, for me, are the Duke's Archives and Oolacile Township (DLC). Maybe Sen's, if I really stretch it. Slogging can either be bypassed entirely or you can use it to help practice, and, with few exceptions, the practice is actually generally a good idea in NG.

5) Character non-responsivness: this is just not the case. I have never had the character actually NOT respond. The movesets of the game are not the movesets of DMC or Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, or Bayonetta. This isn't Street Fighter IV where you can "Cancel" out of a move to dodge or block, much of the time. It's basically a commitment to attack. Only attack when you know it's a good idea. The character will move/attack/block/roll on queue. I have never had it happen otherwise, however, they will not "chain" moves together before the game is scripted to allow them to do so. That's not a flaw, it's a base part of the design.

I don't really see that many of the other responses to these were much different. In fact, the arguments themselves were just as dismissive and/or semantics, which goes to my point that the responses are generally proportionate to the question or complaint.

You're right, I haven't properly explained my pain point at first, but I did explain them more in detail in this post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.843348-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Dark-Souls-7-Steps-to-Sucking-Less?page=2#comment_form]. I, however, never did "display dismissivnes about the game" or "learning anything about it" - I've explicitly said that I'm sticking with the game to see if any of my complaints are going to disappear and if I'm going to start enjoying it more. So please don't make stuff up :/

1.) I think we've already beaten the UI horse more than enough and EvilRoy explained the things that bother me way better than I could.
2., 3.) For controls and camera you see my point as well - it's something I expect to get used to over time, but you got the point of what I was trying to say exactly

5.) For that I've also written that it's probably just also something that you have to get used to - the fact is that combat animations and character movement are noticably slower.

However I simply don't agree with you on the 4th point. I really dislike games that are repetitive and force me to grind stuff. You argument just reads like you're trying to apologise for a mechanic, that's in game just to, really, pad it's length. In Dark Souls it doesn't really add anything to the gameplay experience except tediousness. It just makes you run through the same places and engage in the same enemies over and over again so you can have another go at a boss or so that you can get back to a place where you accidentally stepped into an area that's too high level for you. It's just a waste of player's time to make the game look longer and really really multiplies the annoyance about other cheap deaths. Traps, areas where you die after you walk in, bosses which aren't consistent with environment wouldn't be half as jarring if any death wouldn't be followed by "oh ffs, I have to go through all that AGAIN?!".
It MAY be rather short. It MAY be possible to skip most enemies. It's still as pointless and the same waste of time. Just like grinding in MMOs.

But as I said, there are some really cool parts to this game and it is mostly enjoyable to play. It's just that now it's a 7/10 game instead of 9/10. I will be sticking with it to see how much the experience improves... at least until they release Thief for us in EU

 

[Doclector]

Sounds like it'll help quite a bit. I played as pyromancer for a while, but it just didn't seem to work. The things I had trouble with were the ones where I barely got any breathing room, and it didn't seem very viable to use the pyro's main early game crutch of having fireball spells, nor was it viable to grind away to get a higher DEX stat.

I was wondering whether I should try knight again. The last time I did was my early, EARLY attempts at the game, so early that at first I made the critical error of trying to go to the graveyard (BTW at firelink shrine go up the steps at the cliffside, past the well. You'd be surprised how many people don't even see those steps until they're pointed out, and the graveyard is IMPOSSIBLE at that point) so I think it'll go better this time. I was also wondering whether to use halberds/spears more, because honestly, I like spears, they're not in enough games, so this looks like a good bet.

 

[rreetteepp]

I because I am an idiot... but also lucky as well didn't fight the gargoyle for ages and ages because the only time i went up in the church i got sidetracked and so by the time i finally realised he was up there i was way past the point i should of been and killed him and his buddy in about two hits. Unfortunately this did lead to me walking around the world going "what the hell am i supposed to do next" because i was oblivious to his part of the church haha

 

[Alarien]

Sounds like it'll help quite a bit. I played as pyromancer for a while, but it just didn't seem to work. The things I had trouble with were the ones where I barely got any breathing room, and it didn't seem very viable to use the pyro's main early game crutch of having fireball spells, nor was it viable to grind away to get a higher DEX stat.

I was wondering whether I should try knight again. The last time I did was my early, EARLY attempts at the game, so early that at first I made the critical error of trying to go to the graveyard (BTW at firelink shrine go up the steps at the cliffside, past the well. You'd be surprised how many people don't even see those steps until they're pointed out, and the graveyard is IMPOSSIBLE at that point) so I think it'll go better this time. I was also wondering whether to use halberds/spears more, because honestly, I like spears, they're not in enough games, so this looks like a good bet.

Spears are "ok" in Dark Souls. They have really low damage, but you can poke enemies from behind a shield, which makes for a really good way to learn enemy move sets and timing.

However, my personal opinion, is that they are really just a crutch, much in the way pyromancy is. Pyromancy is very effective in the early game, but really falls quickly as a useful primary form of combat near the end of NG and into NG+. Relying on it tends to make people who didn't get used to melee or sorcery in the early game more frustrated because they didn't necessary learn some lessons earlier. It's not bad, it's just not very good. Pyromancy IS very good situationally as a way to drive extra damage into bosses that are weak to fire (firestorm knocks Priscilla out of stealth, for example).

Spears are similar. They are pretty low damage, but a semi-safe weapon to use. You can stay back and poke/dodge or poke/block. It's a good way to spend some time at relatively close range and get used to weapon timing. However, I have yet to find a spear in game that has really good late-game or NG+ damage. Spear/Winged Spear/Partizan +15 with buffs may have decent damage, but they will never outdamage the light fast weapons or Great Scythe for sustained DPS and will never hit as hard as the sword and axe classes. You can make them work if you are patient, but one of my problems with that is that the GAME is not patient. NG+ 4 kings will not wait for you to poke them to death. I will bet that most players will have an insane amount of trouble trying to beat that boss with a spear weapon. Doable, but unreasonably challenging.

I would recommend just plunging in and getting a sword or axe type weapon and messing around with a few to see if you like slower and stronger (claymore) or fast and light (uchigatana) or something balanced (longsword) for your play style. Once you can beat most of the game with one of these weapons, all other methods of play will see much much easier and you'll be able to balance pyromancy and sorcery in where they really help you, as opposed to using those as a crutch.

 

[Krantos]

This thread is a great example of exactly what Yahtzee was talking about when he said Fans can ruin anything.

He lays out a pretty good guide to starting the game, one I wish I'd had when I first started playing, and the very first page has someone complaining that they get pissed when someone says the game has a high barrier of entrance.

News flash: It does.

Other tidbits I picked up from this thread:

-It's apparently acceptable that the game expects you to do the math with stat upgrades yourself.

-Anything not explained you should know from playing the previous game or reading a wiki.

-Introducing mechanics and not explaining them is perfectly acceptable, laudable even.

-Unintuitive interface = deep

I'm sorry to say, but that's just bad game design people. Don't get me wrong. I like the game. Quite a bit actually. But be reasonable here; the game has flaws. The reason it is so well loved and so ardently defended is that it manages to be a fantastic game despite these flaws. Not because of them.

I'm eagerly awaiting the release of DS2, but I DO, desperately hope that these issues are addressed.

 

[Trishbot]

This thread is a great example of exactly what Yahtzee was talking about when he said Fans can ruin anything.

He lays out a pretty good guide to starting the game, one I wish I'd had when I first started playing, and the very first page has someone complaining that they get pissed when someone says the game has a high barrier of entrance.

News flash: It does.

Other tidbits I picked up from this thread:

-It's apparently acceptable that the game expects you to do the math with stat upgrades yourself.

-Anything not explained you should know from playing the previous game or reading a wiki.

-Introducing mechanics and not explaining them is perfectly acceptable, laudable even.

-Unintuitive interface = deep

I'm sorry to say, but that's just bad game design people. Don't get me wrong. I like the game. Quite a bit actually. But be reasonable here; the game has flaws. The reason it is so well loved and so ardently defended is that it manages to be a fantastic game despite these flaws. Not because of them.

I'm eagerly awaiting the release of DS2, but I DO, desperately hope that these issues are addressed.

Pretty much nailed it.

Dark Souls is lauded for not holding your hand... but it then goes a few steps too far. It's basically like giving you a guitar for the first time and telling you to "figure it out" without giving you a lesson or showing you how to even hold the instrument. Sure, you can EVENTUALLY figure it out through lots and lots of trial and error, but when you're just starting off, you need all the help you can get rather than being expected to know how to do it because you heard it played in a song a few times.

Dark Souls seems like a very "Guide Dang It" game, where it encourages exploration and trial and error, but then simultaneously has extremely brutal penalties for screwing anything up. FUNDAMENTAL and IMPORTANT things are either not covered or glossed over. Sure, you can pull up a wiki, but to me that's like saying you need to read the book of a movie in order for the movie to make any sort of sense (see also: Final Fantasy 13 putting all its important lore and development in easily skippable datalogs instead of within the actual game).

Once you "read that book" (wiki, forums, etc.) and you understand where the game is coming from, of course you'll have a better time. It just sucks how much that's a necessity to get past some of the more obtuse, unintuitive design choices.

 

[Alarien]

Okay, so these last two posts are another example of what I was talking about, in that gamers like to attack Dark Souls without supporting their comments, which is, again, why the community of people who do like the game tend to blow them off.

It's not that Trishbot or Krantos (yes, I'm talking to you, not around you) are wrong. Hell, they are probably right. It's just that they make declarations and then stop short of actually explaining.

There is no question Dark Souls has a high entrance barrier. That's actually one of the features of the game. I would argue that the barrier is scaled down significantly from Demon's Souls, which was far worse in it's system of punishment and the obscurity of it's systems, but Dark Souls IS, as Trishbot says, a game that drops you in and says "figure it out."

However, it doesn't give you nothing. It just expects you to look a little harder, since it doesn't give you a bunch of pop up explanation and in-your-face screaming tooltips, like much of the modern generation.

-It's apparently acceptable that the game expects you to do the math with stat upgrades yourself.

Which math? I already discussed with EvilRoy the endurance to tick marks math. What he was complaining about is pretty reasonable. However, actual math tends to stay in the stat screen interface and level up/change math is all very much done for you and displayed in blue/red for changes. Raise endurance 1 point, the stamina stat goes up (blue) 2 points. Raise strength 1 point, the R1 Attack Rating goes up 2 points. Change from a high damage weapon to a lower damage weapon and the attack rating goes down (displayed in red). The actual math I've found in game is all very much there on display and calculates for you. What math are you referring to, so that people reading this thread and seeing your complaint and evaluate it for themselves?

-Anything not explained you should know from playing the previous game or reading a wiki.

I have two responses to this. The attitude that you should do this or have to do this to understand the game is wrong. The gamers who suggest this are wrong. It's a bad attitude to have on the part of the community and it is out there, so I won't defend that.

I will defend whether it is actually the case and I would say that it is not. You can pretty easily learn just about every mechanic and the effect of every stat/balance in game without reading a wiki. You can learn about rolling by equipping/unequipping armor. You can play with and compare weapons/stats in the stat screen and level up windows. You can use the tooltip (select by default on 360 style controllers) in the stat screen to get a more detailed explanation of the stat. I found that in Demon's Souls, I needed to read up on a few things here and there. With Dark Souls, I never really had that issue, and it wasn't because I had prior knowledge. Most of the things were there to see, like Poise (a more obscure addition.

-Introducing mechanics and not explaining them is perfectly acceptable, laudable even.

Both posts reference this, including calling them Fundamental and Important. Which mechanics are we discussing that were not explained? I am unclear on this. There are tooltips all throughout the tutorial section. There are available tooltips in the stat screen. What mechanics were not explained? I'd honestly like your input on that.

-Unintuitive interface = deep

In my own defense, and I admit I didn't read any other comments that you might be referencing, I never said that the interface was deep. I did agree that the interface is unintuitive to a point. I have never claimed that the interface is deep. I did say that the upgrade and stat systems are deep. They are. There's really not much argument to it too. The ability to upgrade your stats (up to 50 without any real diminishing returns) in several useful abilities (str/dex/end/vit/int/faith) and to match that with weapon/armor upgrades (do I go elemental for weapons so I can not worry about str/dex scaling and then focus entirely on int for spells? or do I go pure str/dex so that I can deal massive damage while avoiding taking fire by dodging?) is actually deep. It is not "level up for general stat increase" or "level up for generic +1 damage on a weapon" as many games are.

That's not to say that the interface is deep. The combat/moveset system along with stat and weapon/armor customization are actually deep. Spend an hour or two focused on PVP and you will rarely see two people in the same armor sets or using similar weapons and spell mixtures, and yet you might find that they are all pretty well balanced against each other. There is very little "cookie cutter" in this game, which is a testament to it, frankly.

The game is flawed. The game has things that could and should be fixed. However, we benefit from detailed conversation rather htan jumping out and saying that something was just bad, and not adding anything to how and why it's bad.

 

[Doclector]

Sounds like it'll help quite a bit. I played as pyromancer for a while, but it just didn't seem to work. The things I had trouble with were the ones where I barely got any breathing room, and it didn't seem very viable to use the pyro's main early game crutch of having fireball spells, nor was it viable to grind away to get a higher DEX stat.

I was wondering whether I should try knight again. The last time I did was my early, EARLY attempts at the game, so early that at first I made the critical error of trying to go to the graveyard (BTW at firelink shrine go up the steps at the cliffside, past the well. You'd be surprised how many people don't even see those steps until they're pointed out, and the graveyard is IMPOSSIBLE at that point) so I think it'll go better this time. I was also wondering whether to use halberds/spears more, because honestly, I like spears, they're not in enough games, so this looks like a good bet.

Spears are "ok" in Dark Souls. They have really low damage, but you can poke enemies from behind a shield, which makes for a really good way to learn enemy move sets and timing.

However, my personal opinion, is that they are really just a crutch, much in the way pyromancy is. Pyromancy is very effective in the early game, but really falls quickly as a useful primary form of combat near the end of NG and into NG+. Relying on it tends to make people who didn't get used to melee or sorcery in the early game more frustrated because they didn't necessary learn some lessons earlier. It's not bad, it's just not very good. Pyromancy IS very good situationally as a way to drive extra damage into bosses that are weak to fire (firestorm knocks Priscilla out of stealth, for example).

Spears are similar. They are pretty low damage, but a semi-safe weapon to use. You can stay back and poke/dodge or poke/block. It's a good way to spend some time at relatively close range and get used to weapon timing. However, I have yet to find a spear in game that has really good late-game or NG+ damage. Spear/Winged Spear/Partizan +15 with buffs may have decent damage, but they will never outdamage the light fast weapons or Great Scythe for sustained DPS and will never hit as hard as the sword and axe classes. You can make them work if you are patient, but one of my problems with that is that the GAME is not patient. NG+ 4 kings will not wait for you to poke them to death. I will bet that most players will have an insane amount of trouble trying to beat that boss with a spear weapon. Doable, but unreasonably challenging.

I would recommend just plunging in and getting a sword or axe type weapon and messing around with a few to see if you like slower and stronger (claymore) or fast and light (uchigatana) or something balanced (longsword) for your play style. Once you can beat most of the game with one of these weapons, all other methods of play will see much much easier and you'll be able to balance pyromancy and sorcery in where they really help you, as opposed to using those as a crutch.

Yeah, I'm getting the hang of the spear as the low damage, high defence option. Of course, it's handy that there's a second slot easily switchable for both hands, thus meaning I can carry a spear and something more risky but high in damage, probably some form of sword as I'll have to be levelling dexterity more than strength to make spear usage more viable, so something like an axe isn't a great option.

 

[Alarien]

]Yeah, I'm getting the hang of the spear as the low damage, high defence option. Of course, it's handy that there's a second slot easily switchable for both hands, thus meaning I can carry a spear and something more risky but high in damage, probably some form of sword as I'll have to be levelling dexterity more than strength to make spear usage more viable, so something like an axe isn't a great option.

Consider the Baldur Side Sword (Baller Swag Sword, apparently, to some people) if you can get one to drop or try farming the Silver Knights in Anor Londo for the SK Straight Sword and SK Spear. Both are actually very good weapons. People get down on the SK Sword but it has a very nice parry/backstab adjustment (being a straight sword), hits relatively hard, and has an amazing 2handed R1 spam to kill invaders. It tracks really well, which means that BS fishers and roll bs'ers get wrecked if you start swinging right as they are getting close to your back or roll at you. It also turns fast enough to protect your back most of the time.

The SK weapons are dex primary, btw, so they work well with a bow or spear build. The SK sword can be buffed (awesome) for great damage and absolutely wrecked NG 4 kings. The SK spear has built in divine-damage, which means it permanently murders skeletons in the Catacombs (and Nito's little buddies).

 

[Saidan]

Great job Yatz, that's a great piece of advise for newcomers to the game.

My bits of advice:
1. Take the master key, the other gifts are pretty crap
2. If you don't start as a pyromancer, go get the flame at the first opportunity (I think you can rescue a guy who will sell it to you in the lower burg, if not the lady in blighttown will) since it doesn't draw from any stats, making it great for warriors.
3. Once you find the blacksmith in the parish, buy the seal of whatever from him. It unlocks a big door in the forest next to a fake wall hiding a bonfire, and leads to an area where you can trick high-level enemies into jumping off cliffs for grinding purposes.
4. Once you kill Havel the Rock (under the tower you fight the bull demon on top of) put on his ring and never take it off. It's great to be able to fast roll in decent armor.

Sorry, but I must strongly disagree with your first point. A new player should NEVER take the master key in the first run, cause that item allows you to sequence break, which will result in an incomplete experience. They may skip most of Blightown, and might just totally miss the Gaping Dragon, among other relevant points of interest.

The other three points are perfect.

Captcha: agree to disagree

Kinda fitting, haha.

Well, I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on skipping the depths and blighttown being a BAD thing. Hated those levels.

So did I, and I avoided them like hell, but only after my first play. They are still part of the experience, so new players should still face them, at least once.

 

[yamy]

My only other advise is: get a bow. Even if you have terrible Dex they're still really useful for luring out enemies one by one. As long as you aren't fighting multiple enemies at once Dark Souls is pretty easy.

Also some of the bosses and enemies are trivially easy if you have a good bow. Killed the Hydra without it even noticing me and killed Ceaseless Discharge without getting hit once.

 

[SiskoBlue]

I love Dark Souls, but it is a dense game for a new player. You only have to look at the 10 paragraphs comments above explaining how simple and intuitive the game is to realise it's not.

The things I think it does wrong;

1. Weapon explanation - I know there are classes like, thrust, slash, etc. but my god, stat boosts over 5 different damage output, plus defensive capabilities (which I'm assuming only come into play if two-handing a weapon and blocking with it? Who knows? I sure as hell don't). And figuring out the minimum stat requirements, oh, and scaling systems, plus it depends what enemy it's good against.

Basically, the result is this; you pick up a weapon and without a lot of learning you have absolutely no idea if it's any good. Worse than that, you can try and it seems terrible so forget about it. 50 hours later you find out that if you had just upped this stat, and reinforced that, and lowered your load here, it would have been the best weapon you have. The word OPAQUE was correctly above. Yes, you can figure it out, but I can also figure out calculus, but I don't want to do that at 11pm at night while trying to kill the firesage demon.

And don't talk to me about magic/pyromancy. Magic seems even more powerful that physical weapons, just as soon as you can figure out who sells which spells. Oh, and how to make them sell those spells. And don't forget you need a wand, but what makes a "better" wand? What's it's range, why does it have physical defense stats? Effectivesness against certain enemy types is all well and good but I can't tell if fire/lightening/divine/magic/? is more or less effective??? Again, you can figure it out but it's hard. And despite a friendly community the average advice is something like this

"Although the Pyromancy Flames has INT scaling, this scaling does not affect the Flame's MagAdjust (which governs the damage spells inflict). The INT scaling is only for the strong attack's Fire damage. The only way to increase the MagAdjust is by upgrading the Flame." To the average dark souls veteran, this makes perfect sense. To someone just starting you have to learn what the Pyromancy flame is, what INT scaling is, what the "strong attack" means, and how to upgrade the Flame (Good luck finding einygi without using the internet!). There's nothing wrong with this, but it's a lot of learning expected that's OUTSIDE of what the game explains.

Counterpoint - Of course, this part of the point of Dark Souls. FROM Software said the mechanics and rules were deliberately obscure because it knows it's geeky audience love to discuss this stuff endlessly on the net. And we do.

2. Cheap deaths - To be fair, these aren't as common as people think, but there are times where your character slides off in the Crystal Cave, or gets bumped to their death. And some of the bosses have horrendous one-shot killers that can frustrate when you can't see the loophole to it.

Counterpoint - It's done with a sense of humour. You may notice that you feel pretty damned pleased you've finally figured out how to beat ever monster between the nearest bonfire and the fog gate. Good for you. Now you're ready to take on the boss..... SPLAT! YOU DIED! That actually meant for you to feel that way.

3. Didn't you know? - People make it sound obvious but you can miss whole worlds and chunks of good stuff unless you're extremely observant, or studying up online. Of course the counterpoint is that they wanted it to be that way so you become naturally cautious, and curious and reading about MagAdjust at 11pm for 20 minutes instead of fighting a Firesage Demon.

Things they did right!

1. Balance - You can look at any forum of Dark Souls and you'll see people say "STR/DEX build is the best, using the XXX armour set, with XXXX weapon", immediately followed by "NO! My XXXX with XXXX and XXXXX at 50 pwns in PvP!". The truth is they're all the best. Different enemies, different bosses, different play styles, there are hundreds of "best character builds" and they all work. The fact that all the veterans DON'T have the same setup tells you this is a very well designed game. So my tip is play it anyway you want, everything has got advantages and disadvantages, and most of the time you can completely change your mind and do it all differently because the equipment matters just as much as character stats.

2. Fair - I know, it seems contradictory of the cheap deaths criticism above, but to be honest with yourself, some of the cheap deaths could have been easily avoided if you'd be taking more care. The deliberate cheap deaths from the game are actually rare, and meant to be funny. They usually are in hindesight.

The truth is you could probably beat the whole game with no armour and the broke-ass sword you start off with. If you can become a master at how to dodge and timing your attacks about 90% of the baddies will never touch you and you can chip away at their health. All that fancy equipment does is make the game easier. Better armour and ranged magic means you don't have to be a master dodger, and those powerful weapons and boost items mean you can finish the fight quicker BUT the point is, they're not actually necessary.

----------------------
My advice to anyone starting out is to not worry too much about all that complicated stuff about weapon/spells/armour/items. It doesn't really matter what class you start as after the first few hours as you'll change your stats to whatever you want. And you'll never lose a single weapon/armour piece you pick up so you can decide whether or not to use it later.


I think the main problem people have with Dark Souls is changing their mentality. This game is NOT like other RPG's that want to give a guided tour of a mystical land. It's actually more like an old-school platformer like Mario.

Remember back to those games. You'd start a new platform game and you'd die 10 times just trying to beat the first level, basically because a) you're learning the character's move set so make bad jumps to begin with and b) learning the level map because you didn't know that lava pit was there.

And when you died you'd have to start the level all the way from the beginning again. How terrible!, the modern gamer might say "I've just played this game for an hour and I didn't make ANY progress? What a waste of time". But you just accepted it as part of the game because you know you weren't wasting your time. You were LEARNING the game. Each time you played you got a little better, a little further, eventually you make it all the way to the end of a level. HURRAH! Sense of accomplishment!

And that's how Dark Souls works. You start a level (bonfire), learn the enemies and path to the end of the level (next bonfire). The bosses are hard, but they're the same concept. Unfortunately I think they're almost TOO brutal. I love Dark Souls but tough bosses made me stop playing twice for extended periods because I really felt I WASN'T making any progress.

The beauty of Dark Souls is that they married this platformer/learn-the-game-through-multiple-deaths mechanics to an RPG. If you focus your goals too much on leveling up the RPG side of things, you'll get frustrated. Instead, if you look as each death as a learning experience, it feels a lot more pleasurable. And like a platformer a lot of the enjoyment is the complete surprise of new areas, and new enemy types.

The RPG elements become the icing on the cake. For example, you remember how frightening that Taurus demon was, and those 3 cheap hollow bastards that swarm you at that one bit? Well, you'll fight them again but this time you now have a f***ing great sword/spell/hammer/fireball for them, and revenge is oh so satisfying. And how would that be fun if they hadn't been terrifying and annoying the first time you fought them?

...and that's why I love Dark Souls.