A Cosplayer's Response to Xbox's GDC "Core Values"
- Thread starter Liana Kerzner
- Start date
An "inclusive environment" would include strippers or anything the planners want to include, and what is being done is little more than slut shaming because you dont see the womens attire or profession suitable to what you consider professional.Gethsemani said:
Regardless of cosplay, strippers or bag ladies they have every right to be hired to perform a job as entertainment for something in the entertainment industry, if sex makes you unconfortable maybe you need to lighten up and change, not everyone else, when you get to plan the entertainment you can choose how to do it.
But it's not really gamers at this type of event (to be fair I'm sure most of them do play games) but this was an event for game journalists, industry moguls, and other prominent figures.inmunitas said:
And it's not really a reflection on the attendees, it's reinforcing the fact that company event planners think it's a good idea to higher dancers at these types of events, nothing more.
That said it's a pretty spot on sexy school girl costume in Xbox colors, they're pretty popular as far as costumes go (not the colors, the outfit).
Jesus Christ. I'm far from a tumblr-posting-hastag-obsessed-SJW-type but that's absurd. A company is responsible for how they make people feel at their own events. If they're making people feel uncomfortable, they dun fucked.Lady Larunai said:
Hey, it's a video game company, and stuff like Call of Duty is relevant, so they should have shots of real-life warzones! Complete with bloodied orphans and dismembered parents! If you find real life uncomfortable, maybe you need to lighten up and change.
Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesnt meant its not inclusive, it just means its not for you, not everything has to be or can be for everyone, if the majority of people or the planners see it as perfectly acceptable than it is.ThreeName said:
You dont walk into clubs going "alcohol is unprofessional and makes me uncomfortable so no one can drink" if a small group dont like the dancers thats on them, if a small group dislike drinking, rap or pop music or anything than its on them not the planners
It was an after party in the entertainment industry where they hired dancers as advertising, this was not a board meeting or an interview process, it was a party.. Lights, music, dancing, dancers
To use an extreme example, if the promoters decided to break out the Black and White Minstrel Show for entertainment, and maybe only 10% of the attendees were black, that is still not inclusive. If something can categorically exclude a group of people, then it is by nature not inclusive.Lady Larunai said:
They hired exclusively female dancers as advertising, you really can't see the problem here? It sort of changes when you explicitly titillate all straight males/lesbians and the "small group" quickly becomes "literally half of the population" that you're excluding.
Keeping the greater context in mind, doing things that are designed to appeal solely to straight men at an industry event is unprofessional as it generally makes another group of people (straight women) left out as there is no comparative entertainment for them. If you're going to have scantily-clad dancers, for God's sakes, get some men as well.
I, for one, am a big believer in symmetrical sexiness. Lets have all kinds of sexy, please!ThreeName said:
I think some people in this thread are assuming "after hours party" is the same thing as "optional, purely for fun event." It isn't not at all. I work in the tech industry, after parties are often mandatory for employee attendance or "highly encouraged" which is practically the same thing when the next round of raises/promotions/firings comes around, only you don't get paid for it. I've been to a dozen "parties" over the years where I was watching the clock as the minutes ticked by painfully slowly until I could reasonably leave, listening to our clients sing bad karaoke, wondering how much pocket trains I could get away with playing while I pretend to check emails on my phone. So lets keep that in mind, there are going to be people who are more or less forced to endure these sorts of "parties". That makes overt sexual content at such an event less acceptable.CaitSeith said:
I was mainly thinking of the people having a hissy fit over a couple of dances.NiPah said:
I agree that it doesn't reflect much on the attendees, but it's a party in a nightclub, having dancers there fits the setting. I don't even think we know if they were hired specifically, if they work at the venue regularly, or any of those kinds of details.
I do get the feeling that a LOT of these "debates" would go away if this were the case, don't get me wrong, the arguments of whether or not it's appropriate to mix sexy time with work would still persist but the rage induced gender discussions would fizzle out and bring a bit of equal ground to the people talking about it.ThatOtherGirl said:
Now... BRING ON THE BUTTER LETTUCE!
No, you have no idea what other people are or are not comfortable with. I myself am a straight male and have no problem with male dancers. That's like saying I (as a straight man) should be uncomfortable with classical sculptures because of all the male nudity.undeadsuitor said:
There are two arguments happening here.
1. Whether or not the event itself, held at a nightclub and with dancers, was ok. This is a pretty complex issue, considering the 'compulsory' nature of these events for a number of professionals, either because its an expectation to get promotions and such as part of your company's culture that you need to interact with them after-hours, as pointed out by another poster, or because you're press and in order to get that great story you need to go to these events and talk with the people there. Either way, its a mix of work, and pleasure, and that places it in a weird rut. Its not completely optional, and that means to some extent its not completely free for all either.
2. Whether the hiring of exclusively scantily clad female dancers was appropriate or inclusive for a gaming industry event, and what it says about the companies that they view 'gamers' as only sexually charged heterosexual males - the people they were trying to appeal to with this event.
What is NOT being discussed, is anything to do with the women themselves. No-one really cares about them, as blunt as that is. They're professionals, doing their job. W/E. What people are pissed off about is how the gaming corporations obviously view their audience and staff members. As others have pointed out, where are the male dancers? I guarantee you its not a case of there were none to hire. There is a reason none were hired, and it boils down in the end to that they don't appeal to heterosexual males - the only people the major gaming industry cares about. And yes, there are exceptions. As shown by the fact there were no male dancers, Microsoft doesn't care about the exceptions either. It all just ends up reflecting poorly on them, like EAs "Your mum is going to hate it" adds. Its unacceptable because of the picture it paints about their audience. I don't think anyone came up and went "Oh my god people are just hating mums against violence, why do people want to shove gore into everyone's face!" when people complained about that, so why are we complaining about 'prudes' here? That's not where the original complaint is levelled.
1. Whether or not the event itself, held at a nightclub and with dancers, was ok. This is a pretty complex issue, considering the 'compulsory' nature of these events for a number of professionals, either because its an expectation to get promotions and such as part of your company's culture that you need to interact with them after-hours, as pointed out by another poster, or because you're press and in order to get that great story you need to go to these events and talk with the people there. Either way, its a mix of work, and pleasure, and that places it in a weird rut. Its not completely optional, and that means to some extent its not completely free for all either.
2. Whether the hiring of exclusively scantily clad female dancers was appropriate or inclusive for a gaming industry event, and what it says about the companies that they view 'gamers' as only sexually charged heterosexual males - the people they were trying to appeal to with this event.
What is NOT being discussed, is anything to do with the women themselves. No-one really cares about them, as blunt as that is. They're professionals, doing their job. W/E. What people are pissed off about is how the gaming corporations obviously view their audience and staff members. As others have pointed out, where are the male dancers? I guarantee you its not a case of there were none to hire. There is a reason none were hired, and it boils down in the end to that they don't appeal to heterosexual males - the only people the major gaming industry cares about. And yes, there are exceptions. As shown by the fact there were no male dancers, Microsoft doesn't care about the exceptions either. It all just ends up reflecting poorly on them, like EAs "Your mum is going to hate it" adds. Its unacceptable because of the picture it paints about their audience. I don't think anyone came up and went "Oh my god people are just hating mums against violence, why do people want to shove gore into everyone's face!" when people complained about that, so why are we complaining about 'prudes' here? That's not where the original complaint is levelled.
If it's obvious that in such circumstances overt sexual content is less acceptable, then why did they bring the sexy dancers to the party? Is that usual or unusual in the after-hours "not obligatory, but highly recommended" parties?ThatOtherGirl said:
Something I haven't given a lot of thought to until just now:
Within the first year of its release, the XBOX 360 had Bullet Witch, Dead or Alive Extreme 2 and Rumble Roses XX on the console. Perfect Dark Zero was a launch title and the promo art was of the heroine in a skin-tight latex onesie with the zipper halfway down her chest. It was a "different time" and blah-blah, but the closest equivalent today would be Lara Crost in a fluffy parka.
Not quite the same thing, no, but I also have absolutely no clue what the heck the Gears of War 5 promo art is selling me; I don't even care for the franchise, but when I see the promo materials, all I see a pack of skinny multicultural hipsters in ill-fitting cosplay and no chainsaw bayonettes in sight. Not sure who the art style is actually reaching for, but I can't imagine it's anyone who was actually interested in the prior 4 games of meat-headed bovine mutants drenched in head to toe in monochrome splatter.
Microsoft seems to have "Grown Up" away from the absurd fetishism, satire and... y'know, fun, that defined video games until the 360 changed the trajectory of the niche into a massive industry focused on first person shooters and bad behavior simulators as the norm. This isn't a complaint, really - just an observation that they're courting an audience that turns their noses up at the sort of games that accompanied the launch of their previous console a decade ago. Hell, even Cortana's been re-designed for the latest Halo game to downplay literal hologram pseudo-nudity. Not because it makes sense to the lore or even the design aesthetic, but because they want to sell her as the next Siri and toning down the not-really-naked aspect makes that an easier sell to people who don't know (or care) what Halo is.
Meanwhile, Sony has had little problem publishing Drakengard 3, Senran Kagura, and (at least in Japan) Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 on its platform. While Nintendo's track record with localized titles has been an absolute mess lately, they were still solely responsible for the uncut release of Bayonetta 2, complete with a panty-flashing miniskirt Princess Peach outfit included in the re-release of the original game. Part of this is Xbox having seemingly given up trying to garner any Japanese support whatsoever, but none of their in-house games are ridiculous as anything else I mentioned earlier.
Microsoft hosting a luncheon to talk about Women in Game Development the same day as the after party with themed go-go dancers smacks of... hypocrisy, if nothing else. Tone deafness, maybe? When you're going out of your way to talk about welcoming environments and how the industry isn't a "Boy's Club" and all that, yeah, that probably not the time for sexy schoolgirls the same way that pole dancing is generally frowned upon at a funeral. Context is key, and this... well, it's more complicated than people just being outraged over a sexy billboard or whatever it is I usually see trotted out at times like this.
Now, whether or not dancing girls are "appropriate" for a corporate function depends on where the event was hosted, who was set to be in attendance, and so on; I have no personal, moral, or professional issue with this. I work in a very casual corporate environment, and I know those above me have gone to similar shows where the "Networking" was code words for "All The Alcohol I Can Stomach". Were there go-go dancers? Dunno. Didn't think to ask.
(FWIW: Male Dancers are fine, too. The problem is, to paraphrase someone who ran an "Aerial Dancing" company interviewed for some Travel Channel show I can't remember the specifics on, most straight women are fairly comfortable with - or if not, simply ignore - dancing women. Most straight men WILL complain or get angry/leave the party when surrounded dancing men. This is likely a pretty common issue with those who organize live entertainment, to the point where they likely only suggest male dancers on request or for bridal/LGBT themed events - but never having rented go-go dancers, hey, it's just a guess.)
Regardless, Microsoft/Xbox has shown what their "core values" are by the very products they publish. They don't like sexy. They don't like extreme. They don't like loud, caustic, over the top fun, and could certainly care less about cosplayers when they spent the majority of the Xbox One's launch pushing Kinect 2 and then... not pushing much else but the same AAA annual seat-fillers available on the competition's boxes. That's fine, I guess. That's probably why I haven't been interested in an Xbox One exclusive since Sunset Overdrive. The more time passes, the happier I am to have a PC and a Wii-U/3DS and, occasionally, wish I could justify a Vita... *Shrug*
Xbox's only exclusives are going to Windows 10, and they're enabling shared servers with their competition. PS4 has outsold the XB1 at over 2:1. Their brand is crumbling before our very eyes, and would apologize to anyone if they thought it'd prevent one more bridge from bursting into flame. Unfortunately, sex positivity doesn't get headlines in the gutter that is the "nerd press"; posting screenshots of people whinging on twitter and posting the saucy photos with faces blurred out do. It's sad, more than anything.
Liana, I'm... struggling to see the connection between what you do and what transpired here. Some people are upset about the idea of Microsoft hiring dancing girls at a "corporate" event (I'm not), and others are rolling their eyes at the lip-service they pay to FEMALE FRIENDLY INCLUSIVE INITIATIVE!! while hosting parties full of sexy dancing girls (I am). The former - for better or worse - is, in the public eye at least, largely composed of the sort of people who tend to dislike the latter. I won't get into Second v Third Wave here, I've said enough, but the fact that Liana represents the minority opinion on this matter - even here - is... interesting.
All the same, you wrote an honest, passionate piece, ultimately about how pandering to "women" as a monolith is pretty much useless, as well as the baggage that trying to protect one type of person may carry to another type - suggesting that 'inclusive' is simply not as simple as "be less sexy" as so many people seem to assume. I may not agree with every dotted line that you made to get there, but at least you didn't take screenshots for 5 minutes and call it a day like a few other gutter-trash level articles on this whole affair I've read have done.
I'll take passion I don't fully agree with over apathy I do any day.
Within the first year of its release, the XBOX 360 had Bullet Witch, Dead or Alive Extreme 2 and Rumble Roses XX on the console. Perfect Dark Zero was a launch title and the promo art was of the heroine in a skin-tight latex onesie with the zipper halfway down her chest. It was a "different time" and blah-blah, but the closest equivalent today would be Lara Crost in a fluffy parka.
Not quite the same thing, no, but I also have absolutely no clue what the heck the Gears of War 5 promo art is selling me; I don't even care for the franchise, but when I see the promo materials, all I see a pack of skinny multicultural hipsters in ill-fitting cosplay and no chainsaw bayonettes in sight. Not sure who the art style is actually reaching for, but I can't imagine it's anyone who was actually interested in the prior 4 games of meat-headed bovine mutants drenched in head to toe in monochrome splatter.
Microsoft seems to have "Grown Up" away from the absurd fetishism, satire and... y'know, fun, that defined video games until the 360 changed the trajectory of the niche into a massive industry focused on first person shooters and bad behavior simulators as the norm. This isn't a complaint, really - just an observation that they're courting an audience that turns their noses up at the sort of games that accompanied the launch of their previous console a decade ago. Hell, even Cortana's been re-designed for the latest Halo game to downplay literal hologram pseudo-nudity. Not because it makes sense to the lore or even the design aesthetic, but because they want to sell her as the next Siri and toning down the not-really-naked aspect makes that an easier sell to people who don't know (or care) what Halo is.
Meanwhile, Sony has had little problem publishing Drakengard 3, Senran Kagura, and (at least in Japan) Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 on its platform. While Nintendo's track record with localized titles has been an absolute mess lately, they were still solely responsible for the uncut release of Bayonetta 2, complete with a panty-flashing miniskirt Princess Peach outfit included in the re-release of the original game. Part of this is Xbox having seemingly given up trying to garner any Japanese support whatsoever, but none of their in-house games are ridiculous as anything else I mentioned earlier.
Microsoft hosting a luncheon to talk about Women in Game Development the same day as the after party with themed go-go dancers smacks of... hypocrisy, if nothing else. Tone deafness, maybe? When you're going out of your way to talk about welcoming environments and how the industry isn't a "Boy's Club" and all that, yeah, that probably not the time for sexy schoolgirls the same way that pole dancing is generally frowned upon at a funeral. Context is key, and this... well, it's more complicated than people just being outraged over a sexy billboard or whatever it is I usually see trotted out at times like this.
Now, whether or not dancing girls are "appropriate" for a corporate function depends on where the event was hosted, who was set to be in attendance, and so on; I have no personal, moral, or professional issue with this. I work in a very casual corporate environment, and I know those above me have gone to similar shows where the "Networking" was code words for "All The Alcohol I Can Stomach". Were there go-go dancers? Dunno. Didn't think to ask.
(FWIW: Male Dancers are fine, too. The problem is, to paraphrase someone who ran an "Aerial Dancing" company interviewed for some Travel Channel show I can't remember the specifics on, most straight women are fairly comfortable with - or if not, simply ignore - dancing women. Most straight men WILL complain or get angry/leave the party when surrounded dancing men. This is likely a pretty common issue with those who organize live entertainment, to the point where they likely only suggest male dancers on request or for bridal/LGBT themed events - but never having rented go-go dancers, hey, it's just a guess.)
Regardless, Microsoft/Xbox has shown what their "core values" are by the very products they publish. They don't like sexy. They don't like extreme. They don't like loud, caustic, over the top fun, and could certainly care less about cosplayers when they spent the majority of the Xbox One's launch pushing Kinect 2 and then... not pushing much else but the same AAA annual seat-fillers available on the competition's boxes. That's fine, I guess. That's probably why I haven't been interested in an Xbox One exclusive since Sunset Overdrive. The more time passes, the happier I am to have a PC and a Wii-U/3DS and, occasionally, wish I could justify a Vita... *Shrug*
Xbox's only exclusives are going to Windows 10, and they're enabling shared servers with their competition. PS4 has outsold the XB1 at over 2:1. Their brand is crumbling before our very eyes, and would apologize to anyone if they thought it'd prevent one more bridge from bursting into flame. Unfortunately, sex positivity doesn't get headlines in the gutter that is the "nerd press"; posting screenshots of people whinging on twitter and posting the saucy photos with faces blurred out do. It's sad, more than anything.
Liana, I'm... struggling to see the connection between what you do and what transpired here. Some people are upset about the idea of Microsoft hiring dancing girls at a "corporate" event (I'm not), and others are rolling their eyes at the lip-service they pay to FEMALE FRIENDLY INCLUSIVE INITIATIVE!! while hosting parties full of sexy dancing girls (I am). The former - for better or worse - is, in the public eye at least, largely composed of the sort of people who tend to dislike the latter. I won't get into Second v Third Wave here, I've said enough, but the fact that Liana represents the minority opinion on this matter - even here - is... interesting.
All the same, you wrote an honest, passionate piece, ultimately about how pandering to "women" as a monolith is pretty much useless, as well as the baggage that trying to protect one type of person may carry to another type - suggesting that 'inclusive' is simply not as simple as "be less sexy" as so many people seem to assume. I may not agree with every dotted line that you made to get there, but at least you didn't take screenshots for 5 minutes and call it a day like a few other gutter-trash level articles on this whole affair I've read have done.
I'll take passion I don't fully agree with over apathy I do any day.
Because they didn't care, lots of men like looking at sexy dancing women, and they assumed participation was largely male would by my guess. People do things that are not acceptable all the time.CaitSeith said:
As for if it is usual, I can't speak to that. Never had to deal with it myself but I don't work in the game industry. We are talking about an industry (video games) that regularly hires women to stand around and be an excellent ass and pair of breasts next to their product. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that was the case.