A Dark Souls easy mode would require a fundamental change in level design.

[SL33TBL1ND]

Lower damage done by enemies, raise damage done by players, increase soul drops. Done.

Stop whining, people.

Sounds like the easiest mod in the world. Question is, will the very existence of this mod destroy the game for everyone, since now it's only a download away?

Only if people are retarded, and then they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[FoolKiller]

1. I'm against having the 'easy' mode in part 3. I like the idea that I can say I beat this game and it is its own accomplishment. It's not "I beat it on hard mode" but "I beat the game". I'm old fashioned but I liked it when it was you either beat it or you didn't. I'm still working on the TMNT game from 1989 (not the arcade but the NES one). I could play through it with a Game Genie or such but that defeats the purpose of beating a game.

2. While I get what people are saying, has anyone considered that there is no easy if you choose to play online? Anyone who will go online with the game and play it on easy is just going to get beat down by the elitists who are upset that the game is watered down.

3. There is already an easy mode. It's called soul form while playing offline.

 

[DoPo]

My, people just love quoting dictionaries instead of actually giving a real valid argument or at least an addition to the actual thread today... What, did you think I didn't know the definition of those words?

Yes, people sure don't want to give valid arguments. Like this one

Going from no difficulty settings to being able to set it to easy mode is still a large change for the overall game. Like you said, it would be a game with more options. Options that weren't intended. It's like a mod for skyrim that gives you weapons that do 2x more damage than standard weapons and have 100 magic damage on it. It makes things easier than intended. So it doesn't make the game better, but worse. All it does is making the game appeal to people that don't want a real challenge.

Options. That. Weren't. Intended. Yeah. Also throw in a non-argument about made up stuff. You don't know what or even if easy mode would be. You don't even know what "intentional" is, apparently, since you seem to suggest that the devs would throw in the option without meaning and probably realising it. You also somehow link your enjoyment of the game with what a random person you'd never meet does. I'm going to have to be brutally honest with you and make you not like Dark Souls any more - there are people who cheat. There it is. There are people who give themselves quite a lot of health, probably make it infinite and otherwise make their game easier than what you play. You must now be disgusted that you're playing the same game as them.

 

[darthzew]

We've gone so far into bitching about an easy mode in Dark Souls that now we're talking about ledges? God help us all.

Ledges have been around since, well, forever. Here's an easy example: the original Super Mario Brothers. If you fell off a ledge... you died. That's just simple logic. You don't have to fix ledges to make an easy mode. People understand that jumping off a cliff equals death. Casual gamers does not equal stupid gamers.

 

[infinity_turtles]

3: I don't want an easy mode because I don't have enough self control not to choose it (I.E. Easy mode is a tactical advantage that people would be stupid not to choose).
Once again, who cares. If you don't have the will power to complete a game you could otherwise complete, without choosing an easier route, why is it anyone else's problem but your own?

Given that I'm the only one I've seen make the stupid tactical choice argument... Equating that to willpower is kind of a dick move. The whole argument is centered around restricting myself to get a challenge devalues loss which in turn devalues success. I've played plenty of games with multiple difficulty modes on the easiest and hardest settings trying to find a way to make me give a crap about losing and succeeding, but if things are easy I don't care and if I'm handicapping myself for a challenge I don't care. So much of enjoying any sort of media is about your outlook, how you perceive things, and in general the way you think. The fact that you'd suggest that the affects of including something that changes the way someone views what they're doing is a bullshit reason to not want it is rather silly.

As for it being my problem... So it causing me problems isn't a valid argument for why adding it isn't the best thing ever for everyone and does in fact affect at least some people who don't want it?

 

[TrevHead]

I've already said enough when it comes to easy mode so I'll keep it brief.

Easy mode or the devs catering towards the mainstream isnt what I want, to do so really would affect me as difficulty comes in many forms not just HP and stats. It's thinking about difficulty in such a one dimentional way that has given us all these mainstream games with crappy hardmodes in them.

To those who say it won't all they have to do is look at PC gaming 5 years ago when every other game was a shitty console port. Lot's of these old IPs have had radical changes to their design because the devs are making the games for the avarage console gamer and not the oldschool PC gamer who loves System Shock 2, Quake 3 or Doom.

Or how about oldschool WRPG / Bioware fans seeing their beloved devs output have less RPG element with each new game, like Mass Effect 1-3.

Considering these ideas are generally accepted around these parts I find it strange that the same ppl would shove their fingers into their ears when it comes to difficulty.

As for Dark Souls 2, it's obvious that game is going to be "mainstreamed" in some way considering From and BamCo booted the original creator and replaced him with not just one but two devs who have gone on record to say they want the game to be more accessible. I'm not expecting DS2 to be a total POS but it's obvious it won't be the same work of art where almost every aspect of the game is focused towards the creators vision. If DS 2 has any "soul" remaining I suppose only time will tell, especially if From / Namco management intend to keep the directors on a short leash.

 

[BrotherRool]

Just think of it as 'easier mode'. Sure people will still die, but they're going to die _less_

 

[Ishal]

My, people just love quoting dictionaries instead of actually giving a real valid argument or at least an addition to the actual thread today... What, did you think I didn't know the definition of those words?

Yes, people sure don't want to give valid arguments. Like this one

Going from no difficulty settings to being able to set it to easy mode is still a large change for the overall game. Like you said, it would be a game with more options. Options that weren't intended. It's like a mod for skyrim that gives you weapons that do 2x more damage than standard weapons and have 100 magic damage on it. It makes things easier than intended. So it doesn't make the game better, but worse. All it does is making the game appeal to people that don't want a real challenge.

Options. That. Weren't. Intended. Yeah. Also throw in a non-argument about made up stuff. You don't know what or even if easy mode would be. You don't even know what "intentional" is, apparently, since you seem to suggest that the devs would throw in the option without meaning and probably realising it. You also somehow link your enjoyment of the game with what a random person you'd never meet does. I'm going to have to be brutally honest with you and make you not like Dark Souls any more - there are people who cheat. There it is. There are people who give themselves quite a lot of health, probably make it infinite and otherwise make their game easier than what you play. You must now be disgusted that you're playing the same game as them.

I just started playing Dark Souls a few days ago as an early Christmas present and I must say that it is a VERY, VERY fun game. However, I've already been called a filthy casual for two reasons. 1) because it is also known to some of my friends that I enjoy "button mashing games" like Skyrim and God of War 2) My first attempt was with a pyromancer. Apparently I am a dickless coward since I kite/los creatures to my advantage and because I'm a "mage nerd" and FUK MAGIK UZORZ!! But I don't care about that, I'll play it again as a melee class with a lance or halberd (seriously you can use spears and other pole ranged weapons in this game that is really cool). If something is in the game us as players can usually safely assume it was meant to be in there right? I mean, I was given the choice to give my character a class after all.

I guess I'll weigh in on the difficulty a bit too. This game has developed a pretty large cult following, and thus, some of its vocal members exaggerate its difficulty. Make no mistake, it is difficult but only because the player can make it so. Pretty much everything in the game hits ridiculously hard and you often can't just hack and slash your way to victory. Honestly it can all be shown in this boss battle. If you aren't careful and don't mind your surroundings then one of these guys will get the jump on you and its all over.

Spoiler

OT: The game requires you to think and read and otherwise not be lazy. Not too many things are outright told to you and thus people think its "hard". I get why this game has such a cult following, I got quite the nostalgia trip when I first looked at the menu screen and had my first encounter with a lowly skelton or whatever mob and it killed me. This probably will sound odd, but I got a Castlevani:Symphony of the Night vibe from Dark Souls. As to an easy mode or if including something like that would fundamentally change the style of the game, I don't know guys, for me this a tricky one. To me Dark Souls comes across as very purposefully designed to be unforgiving in certain situations. Then there is the weak argument that I hear all the time, "casuals seek experiences, non-casuals seek challenges". I don't know if I'm experienced enough with the game to fully give an educated opinion yet. I still plan to play through it at least 3 or 4 more times, and I haven't even beat it for the first time yet. But there is something to be said about that. The reason I want to is because I know I will be challenged both by the static difficulty of the bosses, and the variable difficulty with facing them each time with a new build and a new style of play that I won't be familiar with

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Well, I think the game is fine the way it is.

That is not to say I find the difficulty that super enjoyable however. After I got through managing the controls (playing the PC version), which is still a pain in the ass, I found most of the difficulty in the game is based around having the right strategy and the right gear / setup to tackle stuff.
You have to grind out souls and the right stats and gear until you are able to clear the next area, possibly dying a few times until you know exactly what is going to happen, then stroll through it.

Sure, there is some skill involved with blocking and dodging and picking your fights, but that's not all too different from other games.

I'm fine with this type of difficulty though, there should definitely be games out there that don't allow you to casually stroll through all levels, that's the kind of thing this game goes for, so I don't see what an easy mode would accomplish, except for hauling in a few gamers who just want to see the sights and be done with it.

Personally I like strategic difficulty way more though, where you have to plan an encounter ahead of time. The sort of difficulty encountered in Dragon Age on Nightmare +.

 

[WoW Killer]

It's thinking about difficulty in such a one dimentional way that has given us all these mainstream games with crappy hardmodes in them.

That's what happens when you design everything around the easy/accessible mode then alter stats for the harder settings. If you design first from the perspective of the harder mode, then you don't run into these problems. I used the example of a map/compass in another thread:

If you design the game around having a map/compass and then take these out for a hardcore mode, then you run the risk of the world not having sufficient landmarks with which to navigate. But if you design around not having these features, you can always add them in over the top for that easy mode. The easy mode doesn't become broken by having a world that's possible to navigate without the extra tools, and the hard mode is unaffected because that's what you initially balanced the game around.

 

[Warachia]

I think you completely missed the point of difficulty, choosing to deliberately walk off a cliff is not the fault of the designer, there is nothing in the game (level design wise) that needs to be changed for an easy mode, you just need to put a warning sign in front of the traps that have no warning.

 

[DoPo]

I just started playing Dark Souls a few days ago as an early Christmas present and I must say that it is a VERY, VERY fun game. However, I've already been called a filthy casual for two reasons. 1) because it is also known to some of my friends that I enjoy "button mashing games" like Skyrim and God of War 2) My first attempt was with a pyromancer. Apparently I am a dickless coward since I kite/los creatures to my advantage and because I'm a "mage nerd" and FUK MAGIK UZORZ!

I also just played it. Literally, I played it until 5 minutes ago. Borrowed it from a friend of mine to see how it would run in my computer. I already knew that apparently "magic is too easy lol", so my test character I made was an assassin (otherwise I would have picked at random and could have gotten a pyromancer). But apparently when you start a game you can choose an extra item - without really thinking I picked one at random, and I was told I chose wrong because I had picked the Master Key which unlocks every door and that makes the game too easy. Yeah, double standards. The game already has stuff that makes it easy but you shouldn't pick those because it's easy. So an inclusion of easy mode would have been treated absolutely the same way and people are now making a big fuss over non-issue, as there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between staying away from powerful options and staying away from a powerful mode.

 

[barbzilla]

3: I don't want an easy mode because I don't have enough self control not to choose it (I.E. Easy mode is a tactical advantage that people would be stupid not to choose).
Once again, who cares. If you don't have the will power to complete a game you could otherwise complete, without choosing an easier route, why is it anyone else's problem but your own?

Given that I'm the only one I've seen make the stupid tactical choice argument... Equating that to willpower is kind of a dick move. The whole argument is centered around restricting myself to get a challenge devalues loss which in turn devalues success. I've played plenty of games with multiple difficulty modes on the easiest and hardest settings trying to find a way to make me give a crap about losing and succeeding, but if things are easy I don't care and if I'm handicapping myself for a challenge I don't care. So much of enjoying any sort of media is about your outlook, how you perceive things, and in general the way you think. The fact that you'd suggest that the affects of including something that changes the way someone views what they're doing is a bullshit reason to not want it is rather silly.

As for it being my problem... So it causing me problems isn't a valid argument for why adding it isn't the best thing ever for everyone and does in fact affect at least some people who don't want it?

1, You are not the only person to make that argument by a long shot. I haven't read through this thread completely, but I am referring to all of the threads I have read through on this subject, all of the arguments against it fall into those categories. I used the tactical reasoning as an example, and it is but one example of people making that argument. The fact that you took it so personally tells me you understand my reasoning. As for it being a dick move, how? It is a statement made on an evaluation. The fact that it is truth, does not make it a dick move. As for it being a willpower issue, how is it not a willpower issue. You argue that you don't want an easy mode because you would choose it instead of the superior normal mode. You are telling me that you would choose an inferior product just because it is easier, and not because it is better. What other explanation is there besides it being you lack the will to stay your course on a difficult product? I'm not trying to insult you, I am being quite genuine.

2, It is your problem because the only people with any reason to decide to add or not add another difficulty is the developers. Where I have a problem with the argument is the biggest people crying this are the ones against the easy mode (mainly because those for the easy mode are asking for a change), yet those are the same people that threw their mouths(fingers) at From Software when the mistranslated article came out about the potential of them adding an easy mode. The same ones saying let the developers make the decisions were the same ones yelling at the developers threatening to never buy their products again (once again I'm not directing this at you, as I have no idea if you were one of those people).

In short, it really doesn't matter anymore. The devs are making a new game, they have stated they are not making an easy mode. Why is it so important to you guys that you keep fighting against it. Let the easy mode supporters have their moment and move on. It isn't as though it is going to make any difference to your game what-so-ever as From has said no way no how.

 

[loa]

So you think dark souls difficulty stems from it mainly being a platformer?
That's funny, I always thought it was "difficult" because of its sluggish animations that often times make the controls unresponsive, the still hilariously unbalanced build options (good luck with your dex character later on) and random dicks in low level areas that do nothing the whole day long but to invade people and oneshot them with their inferno spells and lightning washing poles.
Speed the slomo animations (especially that 5 seconds "getting up" one) up, disable that retarded pvp, bam, easy mode.

 

[barbzilla]

OT: The game requires you to think and read and otherwise not be lazy. Not too many things are outright told to you and thus people think its "hard". I get why this game has such a cult following, I got quite the nostalgia trip when I first looked at the menu screen and had my first encounter with a lowly skelton or whatever mob and it killed me. This probably will sound odd, but I got a Castlevani:Symphony of the Night vibe from Dark Souls. As to an easy mode or if including something like that would fundamentally change the style of the game, I don't know guys, for me this a tricky one. To me Dark Souls comes across as very purposefully designed to be unforgiving in certain situations. Then there is the weak argument that I hear all the time, "casuals seek experiences, non-casuals seek challenges". I don't know if I'm experienced enough with the game to fully give an educated opinion yet. I still plan to play through it at least 3 or 4 more times, and I haven't even beat it for the first time yet. But there is something to be said about that. The reason I want to is because I know I will be challenged both by the static difficulty of the bosses, and the variable difficulty with facing them each time with a new build and a new style of play that I won't be familiar with

Honestly, I think you will find that after the first playthrough the game is pretty darn easy anyway. It really doesn't matter what build you use. A change in build brings a bit if difficulty for about 30 minutes to an hour depending on how quickly you adapt. I also got a Castlevania feel when I first started playing the game. And being on NG+++++ I really don't think an easy mode is needed. I only support it for two reasons, one it doesn't matter at this point, and two it would mean more money for From (though at this point it would be very marginal).

 

[Sylveria]

Snip

You realize your whole arguement is negated by Megaman 9 and 10, right? Both games had easy modes (if I recall) and there was no change to the level design.

I can say the same for Ninja Gaiden 3 and NG1 and 2 Plus with Hero (easy) mode. No change to the level design, you can still die to falls and failing certain events, but the combat is far easier.

"Easy" does not mean "You can't die to anything ever." Easy means.. well.. easy. Not "You win with no effort"

 

[BilltheEmu]

...so my test character I made was an assassin (otherwise I would have picked at random and could have gotten a pyromancer). But apparently when you start a game you can choose an extra item - without really thinking I picked one at random, and I was told I chose wrong because I had picked the Master Key which unlocks every door and that makes the game too easy. Yeah, double standards.

Actually, if someone told you that you picked wrong with that class/gift combo, it's likely they were trying to point out that the thief class ALREADY starts with the master key, and that choosing it as a starting gift is redundant, in this case, and was essentially choosing no gift at all. Also, the master key in particular has the potential to make the game HARDER. It is one method that can be used to access areas out of order, meaning you can end up fighting a notorious one-shotting NPC before the first boss, or immediately skip ahead into an area past the first four bosses.

But as you said, different playstyles can by very different in difficulty. Starting out as a deprived with a pendant will be much tougher in the beginning than a pyromancer or sorcerer. These are rather effective ways of including variable difficulty without the need for "easy mode." Perhaps just a couple pieces of text suggesting that one class could be a good choice for beginners...

 

[Sylveria]

To those who say it won't all they have to do is look at PC gaming 5 years ago when every other game was a shitty console port. Lot's of these old IPs have had radical changes to their design because the devs are making the games for the avarage console gamer and not the oldschool PC gamer who loves System Shock 2, Quake 3 or Doom.

For a second, I thought this picture was of Final Fantasy 13. "Big" JRPGs have gone the same way I guess.

FPSs are the extreme example. They became the dumb-kids-with-money genre. Allowing an "Easy" mode does not mean "Turn it in to a hallway where you can't die. Let's not forget that Doom and Quake had easy modes and had the option for you to flip on Godmode whenever you wanted.

Also, your PC hardcore superiority argument makes little sense here.. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls started as console games. This may come as a shock but not all console gamers are the COD-tards who couldn't find there way out of an elevator without a big red arrow pointing the direction. Like-wise.. I see a lot of people playing CoD on PC.

 

[Raioken18]

Permit me to use Minecraft as an example.

Easy mode, enemies do less damage, fall damage is the same.

Normal mode, enemies do medium damage, fall damage is the same.

Hard mode, enemies do massive amounts of damage, fall damage is the same.

If it's good enough to satiate the casuals in Minecraft then it's good enough for Dark Souls. Frankly if you reduce the amount of damage enemies do then it's difficulty would be greatly reduced. But I do get your meaning, the Taurus Demon (second boss?) the hit box is quite wide and will sometimes knock you off in a glitchy sort of way. It's not a well designed area for a fight, but it's not that big a deal.

However I do think that for Dark Souls, enemy attack speeds would likely have to be reduced.

Take fights like Ornstein and Smough, their attacks are so fast that it's basically an impossible fight for casual players. Also it was a popular player killing farm area, so anyone seeking help was often instantly killed on their way to the fight.

This was the fight that ended the game for me. I had been killed around 30 times in a row between the checkpoint and the fight by players invading my world, and wasn't good enough to solo the fight myself. It was brutal and unfair and just took all the fun out of it, most of the player killers would just 1 shot you, or were invisible, or would kill you before your screen had even loaded properly. I'd even bought a bunch of Indightments, however they seemed like a shot in the dark.

The pvp system in Dark Souls was crap and the lack of ability to ask for co-op help from friends also meant that the randoms for co-op were often useless especially in terms of tactics.

I did end up continuing to painted world, but the next time I got stuck I was just totally broken from my experience in Anor Londo and threw in the towel instead of looking for help.

Also! I hear that there was meant to be a timer between invasions, however my average time between being invaded was around 5 minutes, it would have been less but I had failed a few attempts in between. The quickest consecutive invasion was around 30 seconds, to who I'm pretty sure was the same guy (same armor and weapon). I died and instantly revived, spent humanity again, ran out killed 6 or so enemies... Bam! invaded and instakilled.

I know a lot of people who quit around the same area for the same reason.

If you want my opinion? Don't' do easy mode, but split it so there are separate modes for co-op and for pvp. That way you can get help when you want it and fight people when you want to... it would be a big problem solved.

 

[DoPo]

...so my test character I made was an assassin (otherwise I would have picked at random and could have gotten a pyromancer). But apparently when you start a game you can choose an extra item - without really thinking I picked one at random, and I was told I chose wrong because I had picked the Master Key which unlocks every door and that makes the game too easy. Yeah, double standards.

Actually, if someone told you that you picked wrong with that class/gift combo, it's likely they were trying to point out that the thief class ALREADY starts with the master key, and that choosing it as a starting gift is redundant, in this case, and was essentially choosing no gift at all. Also, the master key in particular has the potential to make the game HARDER. It is one method that can be used to access areas out of order, meaning you can end up fighting a notorious one-shotting NPC before the first boss, or immediately skip ahead into an area past the first four bosses.

Except I was told that it made it easier, hence I shouldn't be picking it. Also, I chose an assassin, those don't have the key, AFAIK. Finally, I was making a throw away character, not the one I'd be playing seriously. I actually ended up playing through the whole of the beginning level (until you're taken by the giant raven) which is more than what I planned for. I was only testing how it's running.