A DRM

[Agayek]

Sure, in countries with GOOD communications infrastructure and management.

Fair enough. But really, how many people in such countries are big on video games anyway?

 

[AhumbleKnight]

DRM does not "punish" anyone. Anyone with a basic understanding of copyrights, IPs and law knows this. A game is the developer's/publisher's product to the end - regardless if you give them $40 or $60 or $100 or $1000. You are getting the privilege to use the item until you break the rules or abuse it, or until it is no longer functional. Your sense of entitlement means nothing in the face of the rules.

Ubisoft's "Always On" DRM does not punish anyone. They have decided that they want to be able to watch those using their products as best as possible, and thus have implemented a way to do so, as is their legal right. No legitimate customer is hurt in the process. If you do not agree, have the moral forititude to do without, rather than playing victum or stealing.

DRM does not "punish" anyone.

Right, so, what about preventing a person who honestly purchased the game from being able to play it because their Internet connection out for a moment. Or keeping users from being able to install a game as many times as they would like, maybe do to reformatting or simply because they uninstalled it at some time. Oh and what about the bloated software that impacts the performance of the game and sometimes even your very computer and things like rootkits. To me this says, 'we're glad that you paid money for our game, but we still don't think you have the right to play this game.', as though we're being punished for paying.

This is just one example of somebody here who has specifically said why DRM is bad for the customer. You are choosing to ignore all these valid points. Why?

I have an issue with DRM when I can't play a game I paid for (Dragon Age) when my internet is down. I have an issue with DRM when I can't even get said game to work with my DLC that I PAID FOR to the extent of having to reinstall the game. When I buy a game, I expect to be able to install it and then play it. I do not expect to fuck around for hours trying to get it to work.

Your "DRM does not "punish" anyone" comment is so far wrong that you are either ignorant or deliberately ignoring thousands of people like me who have been screwed over in some form or other by DRM.

What these foolish developers obsessed with DRM and people like you fail to realise is:
- people who pirate games are unaffected by DRM.
- people who crack the games only see DRM as a challenge.
- people who pay for the games are the only ones who see/are affected by DRM.

 

[Fr331anc3r]

On a complete side note, Agayek, your Avatar is creepy and awesome all at the same time.

Sure, in countries with GOOD communications infrastructure and management.

Fair enough. But really, how many people in such countries are big on video games anyway?

My internet still dies on occasion, I wouldn't want to drop a SINGLEPLAYER game because my internet drops, my MULTIPLAYER already does that enough. haha

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Fair enough. But really, how many people in such countries are big on video games anyway?

A few million Australians for a start.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

Most of it centered around how PC gamers are ignorant, selfish douches (Its true. Most of you have little understanding of law and IP ownership and they're workings from the way you react), but that is a long, angry rant, and not one I'm inclined to give right now.

Ya...calling people douches is not usually a good way to start a argument. After that was said I really didn't care what you had to say as you called me a douche and I really don't appreciate that. Now because I am above that I will not call you any names back and move on.

The problem is there is no arguement to be had.

PC gamers and pirates are simply wrong.

They have no moral/ethical high ground, no legal high ground, and no practical high ground.

They simply have a case of the "MEMEMEMEMEME!"s, and their constant heel dragging on the issue is pretty close to douchebaggery as you can get. And when you've listened to it for 10 damn years, and then see the childish outrage that erupts when a company decides its finally time to throwdown (albeit not with most effective opening move ever), I think douche is a rather nice term for it.

You can't act surprised when you act like something, or remain silent about something, and the get called that something, or something akin to it.

douche and complete idoit seems to fit you perfectly. so by your standards i can buy a tv but the manufacturer says i cant let any of my friends or family use it. better yet i buy a bed but my wife has to sleep on the floor since the manufacturer says only i can use it. although with your wonderful new method i can pay the manufacturer of the bed more money to let someone else use something that i paid for. hmmm sounds like you'd be one for communism. go to work, get money, buy something, and then be told later on oops sorry that doesnt actually belong to you even though you bought it. im sure only "douches" like to pay for items and then have limits imposed on them. the developers may try some ip or legal bullshit to try and horde as much money as they can but in the end their gunna become greedy enough to shoot themselves in the foot. look at what the gamers did in AUS... we will only take so much bullshit from developers and publishers before gamers get motivated enough to get off their asses and fire back with legal recourse of their own. now i love steam even though it has a limited DRM but they dont make you pay extra to use their program. if my friend buys a game from steam that i want to play but i dont want to buy myself i simply use his account. he bought one game so only one game can be played. so if hes on it already then i cant play it as any normal disk game would be (ie if he has the game over at his house i clearly cant play the game at my place) but when he's not on i can log on and play. this method is the best method their is. it does deprive anyone of anything besides maybe money hungry assholes. i see it as either i can play it on his account and they get no money (although on several occasions i liked the game more then i thought i would and end up buying it which without playing it i would pass up) or they DRM so only he can play it so i cant play it but i still dont buy the game so they dont get any money or i wait until its $10 so they dont get as much profit.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

look at what the gamers did in AUS...

Made a lot of noise then took credit when other events bitchslapped their main opponent?


I certainly approve of the lack of effort involved with that plan.

 

[Agayek]

A few million Australians for a start.

The internet is really that bad down there? Damn. I remember there being a hulabaloo about slow internets when that filter was being tested, but I thought that was done with.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

look at what the gamers did in AUS...

Made a lot of noise then took credit when other events bitchslapped their main opponent?


I certainly approve of the lack of effort involved with that plan.

lol

DRM does not "punish" anyone. Anyone with a basic understanding of copyrights, IPs and law knows this. A game is the developer's/publisher's product to the end - regardless if you give them $40 or $60 or $100 or $1000. You are getting the privilege to use the item until you break the rules or abuse it, or until it is no longer functional. Your sense of entitlement means nothing in the face of the rules.

Ubisoft's "Always On" DRM does not punish anyone. They have decided that they want to be able to watch those using their products as best as possible, and thus have implemented a way to do so, as is their legal right. No legitimate customer is hurt in the process. If you do not agree, have the moral forititude to do without, rather than playing victum or stealing.

DRM does not "punish" anyone.

Right, so, what about preventing a person who honestly purchased the game from being able to play it because their Internet connection out for a moment. Or keeping users from being able to install a game as many times as they would like, maybe do to reformatting or simply because they uninstalled it at some time. Oh and what about the bloated software that impacts the performance of the game and sometimes even your very computer and things like rootkits. To me this says, 'we're glad that you paid money for our game, but we still don't think you have the right to play this game.', as though we're being punished for paying.

This is just one example of somebody here who has specifically said why DRM is bad for the customer. You are choosing to ignore all these valid points. Why?

I have an issue with DRM when I can't play a game I paid for (Dragon Age) when my internet is down. I have an issue with DRM when I can't even get said game to work with my DLC that I PAID FOR to the extent of having to reinstall the game. When I buy a game, I expect to be able to install it and then play it. I do not expect to fuck around for hours trying to get it to work.

Your "DRM does not "punish" anyone" comment is so far wrong that you are either ignorant or deliberately ignoring thousands of people like me who have been screwed over in some form or other by DRM.

What these foolish developers obsessed with DRM and people like you fail to realise is:
- people who pirate games are unaffected by DRM.
- people who crack the games only see DRM as a challenge.
- people who pay for the games are the only ones who see/are affected by DRM.

im glad to see that their are people who can point out valid problems of DRM. too bad i havent run into those issues since i havent played those games yet or i would have mentioned them lol

 

[Christemo]

everyone should just do the Rocksteady trick. if you go in and mess with the files (or download it illegaly), the game should remove an essential element of the game, like Batman´s cape in AA.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

A few million Australians for a start.

The internet is really that bad down there? Damn. I remember there being a hulabaloo about slow internets when that filter was being tested, but I thought that was done with.

ADSL2+ is the fastest available, and even then the max speed of 24Mbps is rare. You practically have to live at the local exchange for that kind of speed...

Buuuuuuuuuut... That's not the piss in our coffee... OH NO!

We'd jump for fucking joy if that were all it was.

First up, there are large chunks of even metropolitan areas that don't have infrastructure capable of carrying any broadband over landline.

Then, there's the JOY of one company owning all the copper infrastructure and they reserve somwhere between 1/3-1/2 of all the total spaces in the exchange available for DSLAMs for their own ISP (Bigpond aka Bigpondscum or Bigarsepound) so once your local exchange fills all it's available unreserved spaces it's the expensive and restrictive Bigpondscum or eat a dick sandwich for ADSL2/2+. Oh yeah, and if you want plain ADSL you're dealing with Telstra regardless of who your ISP is.

Better still, there are also Cell Tower 'black spots' all over the place so for a lot of people, wireless net isn't an option either. Not to mention the local cell network wasn't designed for heavy data usage.

After all that there's the SUBLIME BLISS of extremely small data quotas. You might remember a while back a lot of noise made about some big US ISP capping it's monthly download limit at 350Gb? Unless you're willing to pay between $AU80-120/month for most Aussie ISPs that's more than your ANNUAL data allowance on an ADSL2/2+ plan. And about 3 times that for wireless.

 

[Agayek]

ADSL2+ is the fastest available, and even then the max speed of 24Mbps is rare. You practically have to live at the local exchange for that kind of speed...

Buuuuuuuuuut... That's not the piss in our coffee... OH NO!

We'd jump for fucking joy if that were all it was.

First up, there are large chunks of even metropolitan areas that don't have infrastructure capable of carrying any broadband over landline.

Then, there's the JOY of one company owning all the copper infrastructure and they reserve somwhere between 1/3-1/2 of all the total spaces in the exchange available for DSLAMs for their own ISP (Bigpond aka Bigpondscum or Bigarsepound) so once your local exchange fills all it's available unreserved spaces it's the expensive and restrictive Bigpondscum or eat a dick sandwich for ADSL2/2+. Oh yeah, and if you want plain ADSL you're dealing with Telstra regardless of who your ISP is.

Better still, there are also Cell Tower 'black spots' all over the place so for a lot of people, wireless net isn't an option either. Not to mention the local cell network wasn't designed for heavy data usage.

After all that there's the SUBLIME BLISS of extremely small data quotas. You might remember a while back a lot of noise made about some big US ISP capping it's monthly download limit at 350Gb? Unless you're willing to pay between $AU80-120/month for most Aussie ISPs that's more than your ANNUAL data allowance on an ADSL2/2+ plan. And about 3 times that for wireless.

Holy Jebus. Might I suggest an armed insurrection? It's worked wonders for us in the States.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

look at what the gamers did in AUS...

Made a lot of noise then took credit when other events bitchslapped their main opponent?


I certainly approve of the lack of effort involved with that plan.

lol

I'm serious. Although some people seem intent on dislocating their shoulders from furiously patting themselves on the back it had pretty much close to bugger all bearing on Atkinson's 'stepping down'. Anti-association laws, lack of government transparency, the instating and quick backflip over censoring political commentary on state elections, and the fact that Atkinson was about as popular as a turd at the dinner table (yes, he still won his electorate by you could run Stalin's corpse or a goldfish in Croydon as the ALP candidate and win).

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Holy Jebus. Might I suggest an armed insurrection? It's worked wonders for us in the States.

An armed insurrection with what, exactly?

The Howard regime took (well compulsorily purchased) most of our guns.


Besides... Effort? Bleh!

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot to mention that for years cable was capped at 1.5Mbps... at best.

 

[Bat Vader]

Most of it centered around how PC gamers are ignorant, selfish douches (Its true. Most of you have little understanding of law and IP ownership and they're workings from the way you react), but that is a long, angry rant, and not one I'm inclined to give right now.

Ya...calling people douches is not usually a good way to start a argument. After that was said I really didn't care what you had to say as you called me a douche and I really don't appreciate that. Now because I am above that I will not call you any names back and move on.

The problem is there is no arguement to be had.

PC gamers and pirates are simply wrong.

They have no moral/ethical high ground, no legal high ground, and no practical high ground.

They simply have a case of the "MEMEMEMEMEME!"s, and their constant heel dragging on the issue is pretty close to douchebaggery as you can get. And when you've listened to it for 10 damn years, and then see the childish outrage that erupts when a company decides its finally time to throwdown (albeit not with most effective opening move ever), I think douche is a rather nice term for it.

You can't act surprised when you act like something, or remain silent about something, and the get called that something, or something akin to it.

So basically all PC gamers are pirates and we have no morals? Wow that is called stereotyping and that is wrong due to the fact there are people like me who have NEVER pirated a game in our life. If it weren't for us you wouldn't have half the games you have today on console and gaming would most likely be nowhere near where it is today. Plus I got one question for you. When was the last time you pirated music or anything for that matter on the internet. Because I know plenty of console people that steal music like it's their job. So get off your pedestal and meet me back on earth...

Since I've yet to see pirates cast out as phariahs and the general pulic attunted the attitude of their actions being unacceptable, yes, the stereotype fits. Silence implies and means condonement. The stereotype sticks because it works - just ask most developers that make PC games if PC gamers have shown themselves to be a truly trustworthy bunch. We know what Ubisoft's and EA's answers will be at least.

And I've never pirated or stolen anything on the internet, or the real world. Disbelieve it if you want, but that doesn't change it. I've also never hesitated to make my opinion on pirates and the issues at hand known. I don't deny piracy is an issue on consoles, or on the internet as a whole - but its the core issue of the PC gaming community.

What you did in the past is irrelevant. PC gamers are quickly painting themselves into a corner because of their selfish, unruly and rather, to use a word you might find more acceptable, elitist point of view. Its not consoles or developers killing PC gaming - its PC gamers.

The stereotype fits because it works? Stereotyping anything is silly, and believing in stereotypes is even sillier.

I must illegally download things off the interent because a stereotype says so. /sarcasm

How are all PC gamers selfish and unruly? That is just generalizing. Not all PC gamers have a elitist point of view. I should know, I am one of them.

Are you a PC gamer?

 

[Altorin]

Except that with an "average" cable connection (I'm running what Comcast claims is a 15 Mbps line, the middle of the road deal), I can download 400 GB in a 2-3 days, a week tops with bad seeders. Connectivity is such that this idea simply won't work.

you might be able to download 400 gb in 2-3 days without arousing the suspicions of your ISP, but most people won't be able to. If I go over by more then 40gb (I have a 60gb plan that comes standard with my ISP), I get a nasty call telling me to stop all the downloadin'.. sadly not in the Redub GI Joe Voice.

 

[Bat Vader]

DRM does not "punish" anyone.

So what you are saying is that if I buy a game with a DRM that only allows say about 3 installs and it messes up installing the first two times and my computer dies a week later. I should have to re-pay another $60.00 for a game that I already bought but can't use.

Also, any DRM that makes you have to have an internet connection to play is dumb. I should not to have an internet connection on a computer so that I can play a play. I paid $60.00 for that game, I should be able to play it whenever I want. Not just when I have an internet connection. By doing that, it is more of a rental than actually owning the product.

I understand that companies want to protect their product but by adding DRM like this to a game is just silly. It will make PC gamers avoid it rather than buying it.

 

[Fr331anc3r]

Most of it centered around how PC gamers are ignorant, selfish douches (Its true. Most of you have little understanding of law and IP ownership and they're workings from the way you react), but that is a long, angry rant, and not one I'm inclined to give right now.

Ya...calling people douches is not usually a good way to start a argument. After that was said I really didn't care what you had to say as you called me a douche and I really don't appreciate that. Now because I am above that I will not call you any names back and move on.

The problem is there is no arguement to be had.

PC gamers and pirates are simply wrong.

They have no moral/ethical high ground, no legal high ground, and no practical high ground.

They simply have a case of the "MEMEMEMEMEME!"s, and their constant heel dragging on the issue is pretty close to douchebaggery as you can get. And when you've listened to it for 10 damn years, and then see the childish outrage that erupts when a company decides its finally time to throwdown (albeit not with most effective opening move ever), I think douche is a rather nice term for it.

You can't act surprised when you act like something, or remain silent about something, and the get called that something, or something akin to it.

So basically all PC gamers are pirates and we have no morals? Wow that is called stereotyping and that is wrong due to the fact there are people like me who have NEVER pirated a game in our life. If it weren't for us you wouldn't have half the games you have today on console and gaming would most likely be nowhere near where it is today. Plus I got one question for you. When was the last time you pirated music or anything for that matter on the internet. Because I know plenty of console people that steal music like it's their job. So get off your pedestal and meet me back on earth...

Since I've yet to see pirates cast out as phariahs and the general pulic attunted the attitude of their actions being unacceptable, yes, the stereotype fits. Silence implies and means condonement. The stereotype sticks because it works - just ask most developers that make PC games if PC gamers have shown themselves to be a truly trustworthy bunch. We know what Ubisoft's and EA's answers will be at least.

And I've never pirated or stolen anything on the internet, or the real world. Disbelieve it if you want, but that doesn't change it. I've also never hesitated to make my opinion on pirates and the issues at hand known. I don't deny piracy is an issue on consoles, or on the internet as a whole - but its the core issue of the PC gaming community.

What you did in the past is irrelevant. PC gamers are quickly painting themselves into a corner because of their selfish, unruly and rather, to use a word you might find more acceptable, elitist point of view. Its not consoles or developers killing PC gaming - its PC gamers.

The stereotype fits because it works? Stereotyping anything is silly, and believing in stereotypes is even sillier.

I must illegally download things off the interent because a stereotype says so. /sarcasm

How are all PC gamers selfish and unruly? That is just generalizing. Not all PC gamers have a elitist point of view. I should know, I am one of them.

Are you a PC gamer?

He obviously isn't, he points the finger and consistently says "you guys," not us, we, or any other 3rd person possessive. Who would stereotype themselves, I know I wouldn't, I'm a PC gamer and I love my games DRM free.

Pirating is the boogy man, we don't even have to pirate and a company can make up facts and figures because it's not a statistic that is readily tracked. They can say, "the numbers are fuzzy" or "we aren't at liberty to divulge the information or our source" and we are supposed to believe that this is the reason that they lock down us legitimate customers and treat us like criminals all while hiking up the prices on a commodity that hasn't seen a price jump on the PC or consoles (minus console developers "royalty" fees which I won't get into) in years. Pirating makes a statement, that we want their games, but we won't stand for this mistreatment. For every guy they have working on creating the DRM there are 100's if not 1000's of us that are cracking it so that we can have access to our bloody games. The PC market is terrible because we usually don't get demos and we can't return a game if it royally blows ass so many of us will pirate to make sure the game is good, and if we support the company we will also buy the legal version of the game. Following this correlation, if the pirating numbers are tracked, it doesn't show users that pirated as a "demo" and then bought the real thing either. PC Gamers are not the problem in this situation, we are adapting so that we can still play the games that we love, and test drive the ones that we don't.

*steps down from soapbox*

 

[Retardinator]

They have no moral/ethical high ground, no legal high ground, and no practical high ground.

oh, excuse me!? Excuhuhuuuuse me?
And people who torture their customers do?
I'll be damned if I don't get every single Valve game ever released, past, present or future, in retail, for a full price.
Why? Because they're actually worth something. Because Valve does a damn thing to make their customers happy, even if it does take a bit longer. In my gaming 'career' I can only remember so many games that were actually worth the money that was asked. Now that I'm a little bit more mature I actually buy the games that I think are worth it.
Grand Theft Auto 4, on the other hand, wasn't. A pile of low-fps ported crap, that's what it was. And it never deserved my money, goddammit.
Point is, I pay for games that I think are doing their job, and their job is to make me happy enough to buy them. I played on cracked Day of Defeat:Source servers. I stopped and am now happily collecting the cash to buy the game. Why? Because it's so goddamn good and I feel sorry for not fully experiencing it.

P.S. I pirated MW2 because I didn't want to pay the full price for just the SP campaign. And MP is quite malfunctional in my region, due to crappy internet. IW can go suck their DVD drives out.

 

[Bat Vader]

Most of it centered around how PC gamers are ignorant, selfish douches (Its true. Most of you have little understanding of law and IP ownership and they're workings from the way you react), but that is a long, angry rant, and not one I'm inclined to give right now.

Ya...calling people douches is not usually a good way to start a argument. After that was said I really didn't care what you had to say as you called me a douche and I really don't appreciate that. Now because I am above that I will not call you any names back and move on.

The problem is there is no arguement to be had.

PC gamers and pirates are simply wrong.

They have no moral/ethical high ground, no legal high ground, and no practical high ground.

They simply have a case of the "MEMEMEMEMEME!"s, and their constant heel dragging on the issue is pretty close to douchebaggery as you can get. And when you've listened to it for 10 damn years, and then see the childish outrage that erupts when a company decides its finally time to throwdown (albeit not with most effective opening move ever), I think douche is a rather nice term for it.

You can't act surprised when you act like something, or remain silent about something, and the get called that something, or something akin to it.

So basically all PC gamers are pirates and we have no morals? Wow that is called stereotyping and that is wrong due to the fact there are people like me who have NEVER pirated a game in our life. If it weren't for us you wouldn't have half the games you have today on console and gaming would most likely be nowhere near where it is today. Plus I got one question for you. When was the last time you pirated music or anything for that matter on the internet. Because I know plenty of console people that steal music like it's their job. So get off your pedestal and meet me back on earth...

Since I've yet to see pirates cast out as phariahs and the general pulic attunted the attitude of their actions being unacceptable, yes, the stereotype fits. Silence implies and means condonement. The stereotype sticks because it works - just ask most developers that make PC games if PC gamers have shown themselves to be a truly trustworthy bunch. We know what Ubisoft's and EA's answers will be at least.

And I've never pirated or stolen anything on the internet, or the real world. Disbelieve it if you want, but that doesn't change it. I've also never hesitated to make my opinion on pirates and the issues at hand known. I don't deny piracy is an issue on consoles, or on the internet as a whole - but its the core issue of the PC gaming community.

What you did in the past is irrelevant. PC gamers are quickly painting themselves into a corner because of their selfish, unruly and rather, to use a word you might find more acceptable, elitist point of view. Its not consoles or developers killing PC gaming - its PC gamers.

The stereotype fits because it works? Stereotyping anything is silly, and believing in stereotypes is even sillier.

I must illegally download things off the interent because a stereotype says so. /sarcasm

How are all PC gamers selfish and unruly? That is just generalizing. Not all PC gamers have a elitist point of view. I should know, I am one of them.

Are you a PC gamer?

He obviously isn't, he points the finger and consistently says "you guys," not us, we, or any other 3rd person possessive. Who would stereotype themselves, I know I wouldn't, I'm a PC gamer and I love my games DRM free.

Pirating is the boogy man, we don't even have to pirate and a company can make up facts and figures because it's not a statistic that is readily tracked. They can say, "the numbers are fuzzy" or "we aren't at liberty to divulge the information or our source" and we are supposed to believe that this is the reason that they lock down us legitimate customers and treat us like criminals all while hiking up the prices on a commodity that hasn't seen a price jump on the PC or consoles (minus console developers "royalty" fees which I won't get into) in years. Pirating makes a statement, that we want their games, but we won't stand for this mistreatment. For every guy they have working on creating the DRM there are 100's if not 1000's of us that are cracking it so that we can have access to our bloody games. The PC market is terrible because we usually don't get demos and we can't return a game if it royally blows ass so many of us will pirate to make sure the game is good, and if we support the company we will also buy the legal version of the game. Following this correlation, if the pirating numbers are tracked, it doesn't show users that pirated as a "demo" and then bought the real thing either. PC Gamers are not the problem in this situation, we are adapting so that we can still play the games that we love, and test drive the ones that we don't.

*steps down from soapbox*

I understand that a developer wants to make money off their product and doesn't want it pirated. Putting in the kind of DRM that Ubisoft is will either cause the game to get pirated even more or will cause PC gamers to ignore it entirely.

I would like if some developers would allow PC gamers to download like a half-hour demo of a game to see if they actually like it. That way they can decide if they actually like it.