A DRM

[Bat Vader]

Just play games with DRM on consoles, and the rest on PC. It works.

It might work if you like console gaming.

Why would you play AC 2 on the PC anyway? It's crappy to play with a keyboard. So you buy an Xbox 360 controller. Boom, basically playing it on an Xbox.

Because they want to play AC2 on the PC.

I own it for the 360. I would have bought it for the PC but I don't like the DRM they are using for it.

Not everyone is going to like what you like. Some people like the x-box, some like the PS3, some like the WII, some like the PC.

I like them all but I like my PC a bit more.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Why would you play AC 2 on the PC anyway? It's crappy to play with a keyboard. So you buy an Xbox 360 controller. Boom, basically playing it on an Xbox.

I don't like controllers partly out of preference and partly because they cause the knuckles in my right hand to start seizing up after about an hour.

Of course the question I'd ask myself in the first place is why the hell I'd want to play AC2 when I didn't think much of the first game?

 

[L-J-F]

Steam would be perfect if it worked properly, I've had more trouble with it than good > "the steam servers are currently too busy (useless) to blablablablabla" [closes steam and wishes never wasted money on it].

As for the DRM thing, jee, Galactic Civilisation II anybody? From wikipedia:

"Stardock has not instituted any stringent or cumbersome copy prevention schemes in accordance with what its CEO Wardell has defined as the Gamer's Bill of Rights."

"The game's CD contains no copy prevention and there is no requirement to have the disc loaded into the computer to play the game."

"Galactic Civilizations II received Editor's Choice awards from GameSpot, GameSpy, and IGN, within the first two weeks of release, during which over 50,000 units were shipped to retail; an unusual success for what was considered by many to be an indie gaming title. In addition, several thousand copies were sold direct and distributed through online download over this period, due in part to delays in US distribution. GameSpot nominated GalCiv II for its 2006 "Best Strategy Game" award. The overall critical reception was highly positive, awarding an average score of 87%."

Well I'd say that's a pretty damned good example, oh, how about another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(2008_video_game)#Controversy

"Despite the use of DRM, Spore was cracked, bypassing the copy protection mechanism. The game was distributed over BitTorrent file sharing protocol and was the most pirated game of 2008. The download was available days before the game was released."

Wow, surprise surprise!

DRM doesn't work :O Oh my flipping gods.

Anyone played Mount and Blade or Live for Speed? Live For Speed is the greatest example of copy protection I've ever seen. EVER:

From http://www.lfs.net/ :

"Our LFS S2 demo is completely free without time restrictions, but it contains only one track environment and three cars."

"3.1 You may install S1 or S2 on 2 computers for your own use or to race a friend on a Local Network."

"3.2 You will initially be able to unlock LFS S2 or later versions 3 times. This allows you to unlock on two computers and keep one spare unlock."

"3.3 We recognise that people may buy a new computer or reinstall their operating system from time to time. For this reason, we will automatically give you an extra spare unlock once a week (every friday morning), up to a maximum of having 2 spare unlocks available. The number of unlocks you have left can be found on your status page."

There, the perfect anti-piracy setup.

1. Nobody (ok maybe a few) people will give their keys away (yet the ones given away won't be of much use to pirates since only one person a week can unlock).
2. It lets you use it as much as you want (an unlock every friday is pretty good).
3. You can unlock a friend's copy to play via LAN (yet that person cannot play online so it's not a "full" unlock. You also use a passworded account to unlock so you can give your friend the password and then change it if you don't trust them lol.

I just hate the stupid intrusive stuff that makes me regret buying the game (and I ALWAYS research a game's DRM before buying).

But yeah, Steam would be great if it worked, but it doesn't for me. Direct 2 Drive is also very good, and in my view much better than Steam for a number of reasons (mainly it gives you control over the game - you get the install files and the CD so you can do it whenever you want to).

 

[Plurralbles]

Heres a solution: Move PC gaming to bluray, games at least 400gb.

Once CDs hit, the average game size greatly exceeded the average internet connection's ability to move it. The pirate's solution were 'rips.' Games with all the movies removed, the sound files reduced to absurdly low bitrates and/or compressed with retarded schemes that took hours upon hours to decompress. But were still fucking huge, compared to the average connection. In this period, piracy was dead. The only people who could even hope to pirate any game had to work in IT as the administrator.

So, yea, content, content, content. The longer it takes to download, the less people will want to expose themselves on public trackers. The more content you force the pirates to remove/compress/downsample/re-encode to make distribution viable, the better the retail version becomes.

And hell, putting bluray games on a platform capable of doing something of actual fucking worth with the format would be a huge step forward.

One problem. Computers wouldn't be able to fit that. So, no. Here's the perfect way: USE STEAM! In fact, there should be a law: All PC games must be sold through Steam. Fixed and done.

a legal monopoly for steam? FUCK that. Te only reason you see great deals on it is because they have to fucking compete with teh hard copy and the minority of the digital distritubtion sites.

That or because they aren't actually corrupt. I would trust Gabe Newell with my life.

you can't be that naive... surely.

 

[Agayek]

Yea, I did the math. It'd take about a day on the top end home connection (50mbs, verizon fios). Currently it takes the average connection 2-3 hours to pull in a game. The reason piracy is so rampant is its easy, quick, and public torrents work best if you get on them early.

Not to mention comcast (and any other cable internet provider) would cancel your account for downloading 400gb in a month. They'd have you drawn and quartered (by comcast vans rather than horses) for downloading 400gb in 2-3 days.

I dunno about that, I've downloaded a solid 100 or so GB of various movies and TV shows in the last 3 weeks and haven't heard a word. Maybe I just got lucky though.

 

[Wolfram23]

Maybe what needs to happen is 'simply' a net war - publishers trying to protect their stuff attack the sites who are offering it for free. Torrent sites and such. Harrass until they cease and desist.

 

[lacktheknack]

The only reason Sins remotely worked is because you needed to register your legitmate copy of the game to get updates, patches and expansions to work. If it hadn't need that, Ironclad and Stardock probably wouldn't have even made a 1/4th of their money back.

Updates, patches and expansions for Sins have all been cracked.

Stardock remain viable because they get big love from the anti-DRM-as-a-principle crowd.

...I didn't say that. That's weird.

Besides, the developer of Sins said that it was because they chose a genre that pirates weren't very interested in and stayed under the radar.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

...I didn't say that. That's weird.

Besides, the developer of Sins said that it was because they chose a genre that pirates weren't very interested in and stayed under the radar.

Hopefully I just fucked up the quoting... otherwise, yes... very weird.


Sins was under the radar for most people, pirates and gamers alike.

That's not a bad thing, as the company are happy with the money they made and not gnashing their teeth over the loss of hypothetical sales. That, IMO, is the healthy way of looking at things. The main point of the interview I took away was that they're setting very reasonable sales expectations and budgeting their development accordingly.

 

[StarCecil]

Isn't this all assuming that the pirates would buy the game at all? I mean, if I really wanted a game, I'd pay for it. If I didn't want a game that badly, I'd download it. If I didn't want a game badly enough to pay for it, but there was no way to pirate it, due to DRM or what have you, then I just wouldn't buy it.

 

[Altorin]

Yea, I did the math. It'd take about a day on the top end home connection (50mbs, verizon fios). Currently it takes the average connection 2-3 hours to pull in a game. The reason piracy is so rampant is its easy, quick, and public torrents work best if you get on them early.

Not to mention comcast (and any other cable internet provider) would cancel your account for downloading 400gb in a month. They'd have you drawn and quartered (by comcast vans rather than horses) for downloading 400gb in 2-3 days.

I dunno about that, I've downloaded a solid 100 or so GB of various movies and TV shows in the last 3 weeks and haven't heard a word. Maybe I just got lucky though.

my ISP is pretty good about their limit.. the internet doesn't just cut off immediately if you go over (which would SUUUUCK).

I did however get a call when I downloaded 250gb over 2 months (with a 60gb/month plan)... they didn't call the first month when I went upto 80gb.. but the second, when I hit 140, I got a call from them.. just basically saying cut it out.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Isn't this all assuming that the pirates would buy the game at all?

Shhhhh... If publishers admitted to that they'd have to accept that they're not losing much at all.

 

[SimuLord]

Besides, the developer of Sins said that it was because they chose a genre that pirates weren't very interested in and stayed under the radar.

No, Brad Wardell said that when Stardock made Sins, they made a game that was designed to appeal to people who buy (as opposed to pirate) games. What genre it's in has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[Illessa]

-snip-

I would definitely do so. Matter of fact, I've already done so. The team behind the game "Natural Selection 2", the sequel to the rather popular HL1 mod (this time a standalone game, with their own custom engine), does this in fact. They have preorders up, and purchasing gives access to the alpha and beta once it's released, and all sorts of goodies like that. Would be nice if more studios started following such a model.

Going back to this, because it's one of my pet topics. It's kind like the old concept of patronage, which has popped up in the pen and paper RPG industry of late (as far as I know, Wolfgang Baur was the first to do it, the FAQ for his Open Design is <a href=http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/faq>here).

Basically those that pay in get access to loads of material beforehand, development diaries, preview art, that sort of thing, then at the end you get the pdf of the final product and access to a print-on-demand hard copy at cost. The really big draw though is that you get to contribute - you can pitch adventures, join in brainstorming ideas, create monsters, playtest and so forth. Obviously the designers are in charge and they're under no compulsion to use any of your suggestions, but even if none of your ideas see light of day the process is really fun. There's also a base amount you pay but you can choose to pay more, in which case you can get added perks such as extra preview material and chances to contribute, first dibs on playtesting and signed hard copies at the end.

Obviously developing a video game is a way bigger proposition than an RPG, and the added complexity and long development time will reduce the amount of input patrons could have; but still, if a game company came along that let the customers that get in really early help brainstorm plot and environments? Maybe pitch some enemy ideas or concept art? Gave them the opportunity for some real dialogue with designers and writers about the whole process? I would be all over that if it were even vaguely in my price range.

 

[MR T3D]

DRM is flat out shit that owners of a game should not have to deal with.

As previously posted by many members, STARDOCK HAS NO DRM, AND THEY ARE FUCKING AWESOME.


I love my copies of sins and GalCiv2, and because the GAME has no shit on me, I'd be a total asshole to pirate and never buy it, so I don't, I buy them and have a great time. great example of what other devs should do: make a game that's awesome, and don't put in bots and unnecessary online checks and crap on my machine.

Just play games with DRM on consoles, and the rest on PC. It works.

It might work if you like console gaming.

Why would you play AC 2 on the PC anyway? It's crappy to play with a keyboard. So you buy an Xbox 360 controller. Boom, basically playing it on an Xbox.

who says we're talking about ass creed deuce?
silent hunter 5, PC game in a decent series was recent released with BS-DRM, and on that reason *almost* alone (pricepoint, system performance possibly), I'm sticking to SH3 (would say 4, but northern Atlantic is my preferred theatre)

 

[Delusibeta]

Spoiler: -snip-

-snip-

I would definitely do so. Matter of fact, I've already done so. The team behind the game "Natural Selection 2", the sequel to the rather popular HL1 mod (this time a standalone game, with their own custom engine), does this in fact. They have preorders up, and purchasing gives access to the alpha and beta once it's released, and all sorts of goodies like that. Would be nice if more studios started following such a model.

Going back to this, because it's one of my pet topics. It's kind like the old concept of patronage, which has popped up in the pen and paper RPG industry of late (as far as I know, Wolfgang Baur was the first to do it, the FAQ for his Open Design is <a href=http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/faq>here).

Basically those that pay in get access to loads of material beforehand, development diaries, preview art, that sort of thing, then at the end you get the pdf of the final product and access to a print-on-demand hard copy at cost. The really big draw though is that you get to contribute - you can pitch adventures, join in brainstorming ideas, create monsters, playtest and so forth. Obviously the designers are in charge and they're under no compulsion to use any of your suggestions, but even if none of your ideas see light of day the process is really fun. There's also a base amount you pay but you can choose to pay more, in which case you can get added perks such as extra preview material and chances to contribute, first dibs on playtesting and signed hard copies at the end.

Obviously developing a video game is a way bigger proposition than an RPG, and the added complexity and long development time will reduce the amount of input patrons could have; but still, if a game company came along that let the customers that get in really early help brainstorm plot and environments? Maybe pitch some enemy ideas or concept art? Gave them the opportunity for some real dialogue with designers and writers about the whole process? I would be all over that if it were even vaguely in my price range.

So, something like Wolfire Games is doing? Access to a secret forum, ability to submit content to be added to the game's lore (e.g. the Whale Man), a public developmental blog, and an alpha build every week?

 

[lacktheknack]

Besides, the developer of Sins said that it was because they chose a genre that pirates weren't very interested in and stayed under the radar.

No, Brad Wardell said that when Stardock made Sins, they made a game that was designed to appeal to people who buy (as opposed to pirate) games. What genre it's in has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I am 90% sure he used the word "genre" when he said that.

 

[SimuLord]

Besides, the developer of Sins said that it was because they chose a genre that pirates weren't very interested in and stayed under the radar.

No, Brad Wardell said that when Stardock made Sins, they made a game that was designed to appeal to people who buy (as opposed to pirate) games. What genre it's in has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I am 90% sure he used the word "genre" when he said that.

OK, I just went back and read the rant, and I concede this point. It is still, however, interesting just what Wardell said:

Our games sell well for three reasons. First, they're good games which is a pre-requisite. But there's lots of great games that don't sell well.

The other two reasons are:

* Our games work on a very wide variety of hardware configurations.
* Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for.

(emphasis mine)

So what he's basically saying is don't waste money making games for pirates. Make games for customers and---shocking!---you'll make money! If this means that there's a limited selection of genres to choose from, well, blame the pirates and cry in your beer. I'll be over here buying games from companies like Stardock and Paradox. And they know it.

 

[siNwrath]

OK, SO here's the thing. There is not a system I can think of thats uncrackable, so its not if? but when? How fast could it be cracked?

Given that cracks are a fact, is DRM worth the hassle? Afaik DRM has done nothing but hurt the industry. Except one case. Steam, and that's because DRM isn't all it is, and it lets up. Its by no means draconian, and has a good rep afaik to boot.

Again I ask you, would companies like Valve and Blizzard and Epic, and games like Sins of a Solar Empire, and Penumbra, just to name a few, exist without DRM. The answer is always AB-SO-FUCKIN-LUTELY. Most of the games that the aforementioned companies built their reputation and success off only required CD-Keys and maybe that you keep your CD in the tray. That's all you need, and the success of Penumbra, and Sins prove you don't even really need that.

I'm side tracking a little, but you can't just assume that the other party or any human being is guilty and then go from there. The system doesn't work like that, and if you think it should, honestly go fucking die, you're probably guilty of some heinous crime, probably child molestation or mass murder, and as such you should be burned Mr Guilty until proven innocent... or dead.

IN SUMMARY, I just want to say that I think the whole DRM argument is stupid, because no matter what you do, no matter how intense or draconian or whatever kind of DRM you add to your product, the best you can hope for is nothing. It WILL be cracked its just a matter of time. In fact at best you're doing nothing, at worst you are incurring incredible and public backlash from disatisfied or even enraged customers for no good reason. In fact the simple truth is that its costly, especially when it goes wrong, and it does. Its too much effort for something that does nothing except ruin your overall product. I for one do not see how this means that the PC platform is dead, or see the platform dying anytime soon.