A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

XsjadoBlayde

~it ends here~
Apr 29, 2020
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Two other Public Interest Legal Foundation lawyers—its president, J. Christian Adams, and another board member, Hans von Spakovsky—served in George W. Bush’s Justice Department, where they began efforts to use the Voting Rights Act, which was designed to protect Black voters, to prosecute purported fraud by Black voters and election officials. Both men have argued strenuously that American elections are rife with serious fraud, and in 2017 they got a rare opportunity to make their case, when Trump appointed them to a Presidential commission on election integrity. Within months, after the commission was unable to find significant evidence of election fraud, it acrimoniously disbanded. Adams and von Spakovsky, who are members of what Roll Call has termed the Voter Fraud Brain Trust, have nevertheless continued their crusade, sustained partly by Bradley funds. Von Spakovsky now heads the Heritage Foundation’s Election Law Reform Initiative, which has received grants from the Bradley Foundation.



At Heritage, von Spakovsky has overseen a national tracking system monitoring election-fraud cases. But its data on Arizona, the putative center of the storm, is not exactly alarming: of the millions of votes cast in the state from 2016 to 2020, only nine individuals were convicted of fraud. Each instance involved someone casting a duplicate ballot in another state. There were no recorded cases of identity fraud, ballot stuffing, voting by non-citizens, or other nefarious schemes. The numbers confirm that there is some voter fraud, or at least confusion, but not remotely enough to affect election outcomes.



Even Benjamin Ginsberg, a Republican lawyer who for years led the Party’s election-law fights, recently conceded to the Times that “a party that’s increasingly old and white whose base is a diminishing share of the population is conjuring up charges of fraud to erect barriers to voting for people it fears won’t support its candidates.”



The Voter Fraud Brain Trust lent support to Trump’s lies from the time he took office. In 2016, when he lost the popular vote by nearly three million ballots, he insisted that he had actually won it, spuriously blaming rampant fraud in California. Soon afterward, von Spakovsky gave Trump’s false claim credence by publishing an essay at Heritage arguing that there was no way to disprove the allegation, because “we have an election system that’s based on the honor system.”



More than a year before the 2020 election, Cleta Mitchell and her allies sensed political peril for Trump and began reviewing strategies to help keep him in office. According to a leaked video of an address that she gave in May, 2019, to the Council for National Policy, a secretive conservative society, she warned that Democrats were successfully registering what she sarcastically referred to as “the disenfranchised.” She continued, “They know that if they target certain communities and they can get them registered and get them to the polls, then those groups . . . will vote ninety per cent, ninety-five per cent for Democrats."



One possible countermove was for conservative state legislators to reëngineer the way the Electoral College has worked for more than a hundred years, in essence by invoking the Independent Legislature Doctrine. The Constitution gives states the authority to choose their Presidential electors “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct.” Since the late nineteenth century, states have delegated that authority to the popular vote. But, arguably, the Constitution permits state legislatures to take this authority back. Legislators could argue that an election had been compromised by irregularities or fraud, forcing them to intervene.



In August, 2019, e-mails show, Mitchell co-chaired a high-level working group with Shawnna Bolick, a Republican state representative from Phoenix. Among the topics slated for discussion was the Electoral College. The working group was convened by alec, the corporate-backed nonprofit that transmits conservative policy ideas and legislation to state lawmakers. The Bradley Foundation has long supported alec, and Mitchell has worked closely with it, serving as its outside counsel until recently.


Mitchell and Bolick declined to answer questions about the working group’s focus, but it appears that Bolick’s participation was productive. After the election, she signed a resolution demanding that Congress block the certification of Biden’s victory and award Arizona’s electors to Trump. Then, early this year, Bolick introduced a bill proposing a radical reading of Article II of the Constitution, along the lines of the Independent Legislature Doctrine. It would enable a majority of the Arizona legislature to override the popular vote if it found fault with the outcome, and dictate the state’s Electoral College votes itself—anytime up until Inauguration Day. Bolick has described her bill as just “a good, democratic check and balance,” but her measure was considered so extreme that it died in committee, despite Republican majorities in both houses of the legislature.



Yet, simply by putting forth the idea as legislation, she helped lend legitimacy to the audacious scheme that the Trump campaign desperately pursued in the final days before Biden’s Inauguration: to rely on Republican-led state legislatures to overturn Electoral College votes. Ian Bassin, the executive director of Protect Democracy, who served as an associate White House counsel under Obama, told me, “Institutions like the Heritage Foundation and alec are providing the grease to turn these attacks on democracy into law.”


Bolick has since announced her candidacy for secretary of state in Arizona. Her husband, Clint Bolick, is an Arizona Supreme Court justice and a leader in right-wing legal circles. Clarence Thomas, one of the three U.S. Supreme Court Justices who signed on to the concurring opinion in Bush v. Gore laying out the Independent Legislature Doctrine, is the godfather of one of Clint Bolick’s sons. If Shawnna Bolick wins her race, she will oversee future elections in the state. And, if the Supreme Court faces another case in which arguments about the Independent Legislature Doctrine come into play, there may now be enough conservative Justices to agree with Thomas that there are circumstances under which legislatures, not voters, could have the final word in American elections.



Months before the 2020 vote, Lisa Nelson, the C.E.O. of alec, also anticipated contesting the election results. That February, she told a private gathering of the Council for National Policy about a high-level review that her group had undertaken of ways to challenge “the validity” of the Presidential returns. A video of the proceedings was obtained by the investigative group Documented, and first reported by the Washington Spectator. In her speech, Nelson noted that she was working with Mitchell and von Spakovsky.



Although the law bars charitable organizations such as the Council for National Policy from engaging in electoral politics, Nelson unabashedly acknowledged, “Obviously, we all want President Trump to win, and win the national vote.” She went on, “But it’s very clear that, really, what it comes down to is the states, and the state legislators.” One plan, she said, was to urge conservative legislators to voice doubt to their respective secretaries of state, questioning the election’s outcome and asking, “What did happen that night?”



By August, 2020, when the Council for National Policy held another meeting, the pandemic had hurt Trump’s prospects, and talk within the membership about potential Democratic election fraud had reached a frenzy. At the meeting, Adams, the Public Interest Legal Foundation’s president, echoed Trump’s raging about mail-in ballots, describing them as “the No. 1 left-wing agenda.” He urged conservatives not to be deterred by criticism: “Be not afraid of the accusations that you’re a voter suppressor, you’re a racist, and so forth.”



A younger member of the organization, Charlie Kirk—a founder of Turning Point USA, which promotes right-wing ideas on school campuses—injected a note of optimism. He suggested that the pandemic, by closing campuses, would likely suppress voting among college students, a left-leaning bloc. “Please keep the campuses closed,” he said, to cheers. “Like, it’s a great thing!"



Five months later, Turning Point Action, a “social welfare organization” run by Kirk’s group, was one of nearly a dozen groups behind Trump’s “March to Save America,” on January 6th. Shortly before the rally, Kirk tweeted that the groups he leads would send “80+ buses full of patriots to DC to fight for this president.” His tweet was deleted after the crowds assaulted the Capitol.



Turning Point, which has received small grants from the Bradley Foundation, is headquartered in Arizona, and it has played a significant role in the radicalization of the state, in part by amplifying fear and anger about voter fraud. Turning Point’s chief operating officer, Tyler Bowyer, is a member of the Republican National Committee and a former chair of the Maricopa County Republican Party. Bowyer’s friend Jake Hoffman runs an Arizona-based digital-marketing company, Rally Forge, that has been Turning Point’s highest-compensated contractor. In the summer of 2020, Rally Forge helped Turning Point use social media to spread incendiary misinformation about the coming elections. In September, the Washington Post reported that Rally Forge, on behalf of Turning Point Action, had paid teen-agers to deceptively post thousands of copycat propaganda messages, much as Russia had done during the 2016 campaign. Adult leaders had instructed the teens to tweak the wording of their posts, to evade detection by technology companies. Some messages were posted under the teens’ accounts, but others were sent under assumed personae. Many posts claimed that mail-in ballots would “lead to fraud,” and that Democrats planned to steal the Presidency.



Turning Point Action denied that it ran a troll farm, arguing that the teen-age employees were genuine, but a study by the Internet Observatory at Stanford’s Cyber Policy Center documented the scheme, along with other dubious practices by Rally Forge. In 2016, the company fabricated a politician—complete with a doctored photograph—to run as an Independent write-in candidate against Andy Biggs, a far-right Republican seeking an open congressional seat in Arizona. The ploy, evidently intended to siphon votes from Biggs’s Democratic opponent, didn’t go far, but it was hardly the company’s only scam. The Guardian has shown how Rally Forge also created a phony left-wing front group, America Progress Now, which promoted Green Party candidates online in 2018, apparently to hurt Democrats in several races.



In October, 2020, Rally Forge was banned from Facebook, and its president, Hoffman, was permanently suspended by Twitter. Undeterred, he ran as a pro-Trump Republican for the Arizona House—and won. Remarkably, the chamber’s Republican leadership then appointed him the vice-chair of the Committee on Government and Elections. Since getting elected, Hoffman has challenged the legitimacy of Biden’s victory, called for election audits, and, in coördination with the Heritage Foundation, used his position to propose numerous bills making it more difficult to vote.


This past spring, at a private gathering outside Tucson, Jessica Anderson, the executive director of Heritage Action—the politically active arm of the Heritage Foundation—singled out Hoffman for praise. As a leaked video of her remarks revealed, she told supporters that, with the help of Hoffman and other state legislators, the nonprofit group was rewriting America’s election laws. “In some cases, we actually draft them for them, or we have a sentinel on our behalf give them the model legislation so it has that grassroots, from-the-bottom-up type of vibe,” Anderson explained. “We’ve got three bills done in Arizona!” She continued, “We’re moving four more through the state of Arizona right now . . . simple bills, all straight from the Heritage recommendations.” One of the bills, she noted, was “written and carried by Jake Hoffman,” whom she described as “a longtime friend of the Heritage Foundation.”



Hoffman’s bills have made the Heritage Foundation’s wish list a reality. Voting by mail has long been popular in Arizona, with as many as ninety per cent of voters doing so in 2020, but one of Hoffman’s bills made it a felony to send a mail-in ballot to residents who hadn’t requested one, unless they were on an official list of early voters.



Another bill, which Hoffman supported, will, according to one estimate, push as many as two hundred thousand people off the state’s list of early voters. Opponents say that this legislation will disproportionately purge Latinos, who constitute twenty-four per cent of the state’s eligible voters. Another bill by Hoffman banned state election officials from accepting outside donations to help pay for any aspect of election administration, including voter registration. (One of the bill’s targets was Mark Zuckerberg, whose foundation helped county election officials in Arizona handle the pandemic.) In February, at a hearing of the Committee on Government and Elections, a witness from the Washington-based Capital Research Center—also funded by the Bradley Foundation—testified in support of Hoffman’s legislation. Athena Salman, the ranking Democrat, told me she was incensed that Hoffman—“a guy who paid teen-agers to lie”—was put on the election committee. “It’s the fox guarding the henhouse!” she said.



Anderson, of Heritage, declined to respond to questions about the group’s collaborations with Hoffman, instead sending a prepared statement: “After a year when voters’ trust in our elections plummeted, restoring that trust should be the top priority of legislators and governors nationwide. That’s why Heritage Action is deploying our established grassroots network for state advocacy for the first time ever. There is nothing more important than ensuring every American is confident their vote counts—and we will do whatever it takes to get there.”



Hoffman, who formerly served as a town-council member in Queen Creek, a deeply conservative part of Maricopa County, did not respond to requests for comment. Kristin Clark, a Democrat who mounted a write-in campaign against him after the news of his troll farm broke, called Hoffman an “unintelligent man who wants to be a big guy.” She told me, “The Republicans here have changed. They were conservative, but now they’ve sold out. It’s money that’s changed it. All these giant, corporate groups that are faceless—it’s outside money.” In her view, “Jake Hoffman is but a cog.”



The spark that ignited the Arizona audit was an amateur video, taken on Election Night, of an unidentified female voter outside a polling place in what Kristin Clark recognized as Hoffman’s district. The voter claimed that election workers had tried to sabotage her ballot by deliberately giving her a Sharpie that the electronic scanners couldn’t read. Her claim was false: the scanners could read Sharpie ink, and the ballots had been designed so that the flip side wouldn’t be affected if the ink bled through. Nevertheless, the video went viral. Among the first to spread the Sharpiegate conspiracy was another one of Charlie Kirk’s youth groups, Students for Trump.



The next day, as Trump furiously insisted he had won an election that he ended up losing by roughly seven million votes, protesters staged angry rallies in Maricopa County, where ballots were still being counted. Adding an aura of legal credibility to the conspiracy theory, Adams, the Public Interest Legal Foundation president, immediately filed suit against Maricopa County, alleging that a Sharpie-using voter he represented had been disenfranchised. The case was soon dismissed, but not before Adams tweeted, “just filed to have our client’s right to #vote upheld. Her #Sharpie ballot was cancelled without cure.” Arizona’s attorney general, Mark Brnovich, a Republican, investigated, and his office took only a day to conclude that the Sharpie story was nonsense. But, by then, many Trump supporters no longer trusted Arizona’s election results. Clark, the former Democratic challenger to Hoffman, told me that she watched in horror as “they took B.S. and made it real!”



A day after the election, the office of Katie Hobbs, Arizona’s secretary of state, reported that, based on a routine, bipartisan hand recount of a sample of ballots, “no discrepancies were found” in Maricopa County. Within days, the mainstream media had called the election for Biden, based on late returns from Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Georgia. But Cleta Mitchell, who had been dispatched by Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, to help the Trump campaign in Georgia, told Fox News, “We’re already double-checking and finding dead people having voted.” As Georgia was ratifying its results with a recount, she tweeted that the tally was “fake!!!”



Meanwhile, on the conservative Web site Townhall, Hoffman demanded “a full audit of the vote count in swing states,” adding that the election was “far from over.” He claimed that there had been “countless violations of state election law, statistical anomalies and election irregularities in more than a half dozen states,” and argued that state legislatures should therefore have the final say. By December, he had joined his friend Bowyer and other members of the state’s Republican Party in filing suit against Arizona’s governor, calling for the state to set aside Arizona’s eleven electoral votes and allow the legislature to intervene.



At the same time, another version of the Independent Legislature Doctrine argument was being mounted in Pennsylvania, by the Honest Elections Project, the group tied to Leonard Leo, of the Federalist Society. Local Republicans had challenged a state-court ruling that adjusted voting procedures during the pandemic. The Honest Elections Project filed a brief with the U.S. Supreme Court arguing that the Pennsylvania court had usurped the legislature’s authority to oversee elections. The effort didn’t succeed, but Richard Hasen, the election-law professor, regards such arguments as “powder kegs” that threaten American democracy. Leo didn’t respond to requests for comment, but Hasen believes that Leo is trying to preserve “minority rule” in elections in order to advance his agenda. Hasen told me, “Making it harder to vote helps them get more Republican victories, which helps them get more conservative judges and courts.”



In the case of Arizona, it took only a week for a federal district court to dismiss Hoffman and Bowyer’s suit, citing an absence of “relevant or reliable evidence.” The court admonished the plaintiffs that “gossip and innuendo” cannot “be the basis for upending Arizona’s 2020 General Election.” Hoffman and the other plaintiffs appealed the case to the U.S. Supreme Court, which declined to hear the matter, but it waited to do so until March. In the meantime, election-fraud conspiracy theories in Arizona were growing out of control.



On November 12th, Biden was declared the winner in Maricopa County. Soon after, a Republican member of the county’s Board of Supervisors, Bill Gates, was picking up takeout food for his family when the board’s chairman—one of four Republicans on the five-person board—called to warn him to be careful going home. Ninety angry people had gathered outside the chairman’s house, and Gates’s place could be next. “We’d all been doxed,” Gates told me. He and his wife are the legal guardians of a teen-ager whose father, a Ugandan, was nearly killed by henchmen for Idi Amin. “It’s chilling to see the parallels,” Gates told me. “You’d never think there were any parallels to a strongman autocracy in Africa.” Gates considers himself a political-science nerd, but, he said, “I had no concept that we were heading where we were heading.”

Gates, who moved to Arizona as a teen-ager, was a latchkey kid whose idea of entertainment was watching C-span. He is forty-nine and describes himself as a “child of the Reagan Revolution” who started a Republican club in high school. He attended Drake University, in Iowa, partly so that he could witness the state’s Presidential caucuses. Winning a Truman Scholarship opened his way to Harvard Law School, where he joined the Federalist Society, the Harvard Law School Republican Club, and the Journal of Law and Public Policy. At Harvard, membership in all three was called the “conservative trifecta.” Gates can scarcely believe how the Republican Party and the conservative movement have changed in the years since.



“I know this is hard, but I just can’t be with someone who gets so many fewer bug bites than me.”
Over breakfast in June, in Phoenix, he apologized for his eyes welling up with tears as he described his efforts to stand up to his own party’s mob. He said that he and the other county supervisors had been “feeling great” about how well their administration of the election had gone despite the pandemic. But, as the final ballots were counted and Trump fell behind, Maricopa County became the focal point of conspiracy theorists. “Alex Jones and those guys start coming out here, and they’re protesting outside of our election center as the counting is going on,” he said. He could hear people screaming, and what sounded like a drum: “It was Lollapalooza for the alt-right—it was crazy.” He started getting calls and e-mails saying, “You guys need to stop the steal.” Gates told me, “I’d wonder, Is this a real person?” But some angry messages came from people he knew. They said they’d never support him again. “People thought I was failing them,” Gates said. “I have been called a traitor so many times in the last six months.”


Gates says that Karen Fann, the Arizona Senate’s president, confided to him that she knew there was “nothing to” the fraud charges. (She didn’t respond to requests for comment.) Nevertheless, she buckled under the political pressure and authorized a subpoena of the county’s ballots, for the “forensic audit.” At one point, county supervisors were told that if they didn’t comply they would face contempt charges and, potentially, could be imprisoned. For a time, the official Twitter account for the audit accused the supervisors, without evidence, of “spoliation” of the ballots. “I get a little emotional when I talk about it,” Gates said. “My daughter called me, frantically trying to find out whether or not I was going to be thrown in jail.” Trump supporters set up a guillotine on a grassy plaza outside Arizona’s statehouse, demanding the supervisors’ heads. Inside, Gates recalled, one Republican member after another rose to denounce the county supervisors.



A representative for the national Republican Party tried to silence Gates when he spoke out to defend the integrity of Arizona’s election. He told me that Hoffman’s ally Tyler Bowyer, of the Republican National Committee, paid him a visit and warned, “You need to stop it.” According to Gates, Bowyer made it clear that “the Republican National Committee supports this audit.” Andrew Kolvet, a spokesman for Bowyer, denied that the visit was an official attempt at intimidation, calling it instead a “personal courtesy.”



Gates said that after he received death threats he fled with his family to an Airbnb. At one point, the sheriff sent two deputies to guard Gates’s home overnight. Trump supporters, Gates said, “are basically asking Republican leaders to bow before the altar of the Big Lie—‘You’re willing to do it? O.K., great. You’re not? You’re a rino. You’re a Commie. You are not a Republican.’ It’s been incredibly effective, really, when you think about where we’ve come from January 6th.”



Part of what had drawn Gates to the Republican Party was the Reagan-era doctrine of confronting totalitarianism. He’d long had a fascination with emerging democracies, particularly the former Soviet republics. He had come up with what he admits was a “kooky” retirement plan—“to go to some place like Uzbekistan and help.” He told me, “I’d always thought that, if I had a tragic end, it would be in some place like Tajikistan.” He shook his head. “If you had told me, ‘You’re going to be doing this in the U.S.,’ I would have told you, ‘You’re crazy.’ ”



Some of the political pressure on election officials in Arizona was exerted directly by Trump and his associates, potentially illegally. Interfering in a federal election can be a crime. As the Arizona Republic has reported, the President and his legal adviser Rudy Giuliani phoned state and local officials, including Fann. The White House switchboard tried to connect Trump with the chairman of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, but, even though the chairman was a Republican, he ducked the call, lest the President interfere improperly. Giuliani called Gates’s cell phone when he was shopping at Walgreens on Christmas Eve. Not recognizing the number, Gates didn’t answer. “You can’t make this stuff up,” he told me. Giuliani left a voice mail saying it was a “shame” that two Republicans couldn’t work things out—he’d come up with a “nice way” to “get this thing fixed up.”



“I never returned the phone call,” Gates said. A week later, when news broke of Trump’s notorious call to officials in Georgia, Gates was more relieved than ever that he hadn’t called Giuliani back. A panel of judges in New York has since suspended Giuliani’s law license, for threatening the public interest by making “demonstrably false and misleading statements” about the Presidential election.



By New Year’s Eve, when Trump tried and failed to reach the chairman of the Maricopa County board, his Administration was in extraordinary turmoil. Attorney General William Barr had resigned from the Justice Department after declaring that it had detected no significant election fraud. Even so, Trump continued to demand that the department investigate a variety of loony conspiracies, including a plot to erase Trump votes using Italian military satellites. According to a leaked e-mail, a Justice Department attorney disparaged the satellite theory as “pure insanity.” A man supposedly involved in the plot issued a denial to Reuters, and Italian police suggested that the allegation was baseless. But the conspiracy theory, which became known as Italygate, had bubbled up from the same pools of dark money that were funding other election misinformation. Records show that Italygate was spread by a “social welfare organization” called Nations in Action, whose directors included von Spakovsky.



When Talking Points Memo contacted von Spakovsky, he said that he had resigned from the board on January 8th. But the money trail remains. Crooks and Liars, a progressive investigative-reporting site, dug up tax filings showing that the group’s 501(c)(3) sibling, the Nations in Action Globally Lifting Up Fund, had received thousands of dollars from the Judicial Crisis Network—a nonprofit enterprise, closely tied to Leonard Leo, that also funds Turning Point Action.



While Justice Department officials were fending off conspiracy theories being spread by tax-exempt charities in Washington, the pressure was even more acute on local officials in Phoenix. Trump tweeted relentlessly about the audit. He “clearly has had a fascination with this issue, because he thinks it’s the key to his reinstatement,” Gates told me. “It’s not about Arizona. We’re literally pawns in this. This is a national effort to delegitimize the election system.” Gates predicted that, if “Arizona can question this, and show that Trump won,” the game will move on to Colorado, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Virginia, all of which have sent Republican delegations to observe Arizona’s audit. Noting that both QAnon followers and his own state’s Republican Party chair had referred to “dominoes” in connection with the audit, Gates said, “We know what that game is, and how it works.”


It would be tempting for Gates, a lifetime Republican with political ambitions, to blame only Trump for his party’s anti-democratic turn. But he has few such illusions. What’s really going on, he believes, is a reactionary backlash against Obama: “I’ve thought about it a lot. I believe the election of President Obama frightened a lot of Americans.” Gates argues that the fear isn’t entirely about race. He thinks it’s also about cosmopolitanism, secularism, and other contemporary values that make white conservatives uncomfortable. But in the end, he said, “the diversification of America is frightening to a lot of people in my party.”



Gates believes that his party’s reaction may backfire. Polls show that, although the Arizona audit is wildly popular among Republican voters in the state, it alienates independents, who constitute approximately a third of the state’s electorate—and whose support is necessary for statewide candidates to win.



For now, though, conservative groups seem to be doubling down on their investments in election-fraud alarmism. In the next two years, Heritage Action plans to spend twenty-four million dollars mobilizing supporters and lobbyists who will promote “election integrity,” starting in eight battleground states, including Arizona. It is coördinating its effort with the Election Transparency Initiative, a joint venture of two anti-abortion groups, the Susan B. Anthony List and the American Principles Project. The Election Transparency Initiative has set a fund-raising goal of five million dollars. Cleta Mitchell, having left her law firm, has joined FreedomWorks, the free-market group, where she plans to lead a ten-million-dollar project on voting issues. She will also head the Election Integrity Network at the Conservative Partnership Institute, another Washington-based nonprofit. As a senior legal fellow there, she told the Washington Examiner, she will “help bring all these strings” of conservative election-law activism together, and she added, “I’ve had my finger in so many different pieces of the election-integrity pie for so long.”



Back in Arizona, where the auditors are demanding still more time, Gates believes that the Big Lie has become a “grift” used to motivate Republican voters and donors to support conservative candidates and political groups. “The sad thing is that there are probably millions of people—hardworking, good Americans, maybe retired—who have paid their taxes, always followed the law, and they truly believe this, because of what they’ve been fed by their leaders,” he said. “And what’s so dispiriting is that the people who are pushing it from the top? They know better.”
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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The better reason is that this could tear apart the republican party. Right now it seems like there are 2 major camps in the republican party, the trumples and the not trumples and the two sides are fighting each other pretty hard as we have seen by them pull anyone seen as helping investigate this pulled from committee assignments.
It won't pull the Republican Party apart.

The majority of any party - the rank and file political representatives most of which you'll never had heard of even if they sit in one of the top chambers in the land - are a bunch of chickenshit political pygmies. They are pragmatists who want their seats and like their party, and if a huge sea change arrives to the party, they'll just shrug and work with the new management instead.
 
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Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
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Whatever, just wash your hands.
It won't pull the Republican Party apart.

The majority of any party - the rank and file political representatives most of which you'll never had heard of even if they sit in one of the top chambers in the land - are a bunch of chickenshit political pygmies. They are pragmatists who want their seats and like their party, and if a huge sea change arrives to the party, they'll just shrug and work with the new management instead.
Probably not, but we shall see what happens here. So far it kinda looks like trumps value is starting to wane since one of his candidates already lost and now his super pac is having to spent a lot, instead of just getting his backing. Which means that his name alone is probably no longer enough. Now the reason it could still tear things apart for them is because of how hard the trumples go. Most of the republican party will almost certainly kick trump to the curb as soon as they are sure hes not the draw he claims to be, but its not impossible that the more moderate republicans leave the party. Although, its actually more likely that the trumples will leave and form their own party when the republicans decide to ignore the existence of trump.

Anyway, its not likely, but its possible since we are in a really weird political spot. The mid terms will determine a whole lot.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Probably not, but we shall see what happens here. So far it kinda looks like trumps value is starting to wane since one of his candidates already lost and now his super pac is having to spent a lot, instead of just getting his backing. Which means that his name alone is probably no longer enough. Now the reason it could still tear things apart for them is because of how hard the trumples go. Most of the republican party will almost certainly kick trump to the curb as soon as they are sure hes not the draw he claims to be, but its not impossible that the more moderate republicans leave the party. Although, its actually more likely that the trumples will leave and form their own party when the republicans decide to ignore the existence of trump.

Anyway, its not likely, but its possible since we are in a really weird political spot. The mid terms will determine a whole lot.
In a sense, I'm not that worried about Trump's Super PACs, because I think to a large extent it's going to function as a massive big spending pot for Trump and his cronies to enrich themselves, rather than achieve that much politically. It's one hell of a pile of expenses and salary payments: the only trick is how to effectively transfer it to their own pockets without being too obviously contemptuous of the donors.

I do think Trump's influence will wane. I don't think most other Republican politicians like him much (even the ones who sound like they do), he's just a necessary evil for as long as it takes for time to wither his appeal.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I do think Trump's influence will wane. I don't think most other Republican politicians like him much (even the ones who sound like they do), he's just a necessary evil for as long as it takes for time to wither his appeal.
I mean yeah, as I said. He's got a shelf life and most republican politicians don't like him, but they like his voting block and not being primaried against. I think it really depends on how long that lasts and the mid terms will really determine that. If trumples win the elections we will be dealing with them for a long while, if they win the primaries then they will still be a force in the republican party but not as much of one, if they win nothing then they will probably be swept under the rug and may go to form their own party around their orange god.
 

happyninja42

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I do think Trump's influence will wane. I don't think most other Republican politicians like him much (even the ones who sound like they do), he's just a necessary evil for as long as it takes for time to wither his appeal.
I think his influence will both wax, and wane, depending on who you are talking about. Politicians, yeah they will drop him like the cuban sex boys they secretly fuck when they're done with them, but the run of the mill republican chucklefuck citizen? They're going to get worse. They've already shown they are more than willing to disregard their own representatives, if they even dare to mention anything against the party line. So they clearly don't care about things like fact and logic. They've tied trump to their fictional reality so deeply, I honestly feel they are going to canonize him into a second coming. I mean they already have been doing this, based on artwork they are doing, and statements. They think he is a divine, religious leader, and we all know how long of a shelf life a corpse can have if it's been linked to a religious organization. I mean at least with trump we can actually confirm he fucking existed. There is far less evidence for other religious figures, and people are happy to kill in their name. I see the trumpers being just as bad with him going forward. They already see this as a religious war, with him as their king. I doubt it will get any better with them. The only thing that will help, is them hopefully dying off due to their own stupidity.

At best, we can try and just keep them from blowing up the fucking country until old age, or disease wipes them out.
 
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BrawlMan

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They already see this as a religious war, with him as their king. I doubt it will get any better with them. The only thing that will help, is them hopefully dying off due to their own stupidity.
I'll happily tell all those fools that there is only one true crown-less king (like have previously mentioned to you before), and it ain't Dump Trump. The confusion and dumbstruckness on their punch able faces will be astonishing.
 
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Trunkage

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If a vote happens, what will it be a vote for? To declare that the great trespass was an insurrection?
If so, would that be legally binding on those facing trial for engaging in an insurrection?
Has Donald Trump already been tried for inciting the insurrection and not convicted? If the impeachment doesn't count, sounds like they could but it sure seems like double jeopardy to me.
The mostly peaceful protest was wrong headed though. The people at fault for this are local to the states that allowed, and want to continue to allow, easy to rig elections. They far prefer a system that allows them to insert their preferred servant to a system that allows the people to elect the person they actually want in office. So, my advice to such protesters? Get active locally and build up from the bottom. If there is still time.
Look, people barely got me 'on board' with burning down police stations, and that was only because someone died and the police clearly lied about it. Seeing Jan 6 was definitely a line that some form of punishment needed to come down. That being said, its quite clear that there were different groups there for different purpose. I wish they would focus on the people who were clearly driving others into illegal actions

Lastly, if you gonna claim rigged election, you're going to have to provide more proof than has been shown already. Eg. Pretending illegals immigrants were voting is just nonsense when legal immigrants aren't allowed to vote... And both Trump and Obama deported a LOT of illegal immigrants
 

gorfias

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Look, people barely got me 'on board' with burning down police stations, and that was only because someone died and the police clearly lied about it. Seeing Jan 6 was definitely a line that some form of punishment needed to come down. That being said, its quite clear that there were different groups there for different purpose. I wish they would focus on the people who were clearly driving others into illegal actions

Lastly, if you gonna claim rigged election, you're going to have to provide more proof than has been shown already. Eg. Pretending illegals immigrants were voting is just nonsense when legal immigrants aren't allowed to vote... And both Trump and Obama deported a LOT of illegal immigrants
Not really. Suppose next election, they just let Hillary use clairvoyance and just tell us who won? No actual ballots, she'll just assure us she knows. How would I prove she's wrong? Polls? Those can be rigged too.

When you come up with a method for having an election and counting votes, you need to assure your populace that the method is secure and fair. As virtually no other first world democracy allows mail in voting as we did, as laws were violated, as voting machines were shown to be completely vulnerable, as subpoenas are ignored and audits refused, you really don't have any faith in this system from me. That and allowing people to vote months early results in de-facto uninformed voters. They have not witnessed the election. And I like the idea of ensuring that only people that can be arsed enough to come to the polls with voter ID can actually be counted. Maybe they actually have reason to know about the election and have a reasoned opinion. We do need to make election day a holiday to give working people a better window of opportunity in which to vote. I also hear some poll areas are over-crowded with long waits. That has to change too. And I blame local politicians that need to be primaried for that sort of failure.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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I don't think people are taking this growing threat seriously enough, it's literally a coordinated attempt to dismantle what's left of the semblance of a fair democracy, and they're not being dealt with appropriately, just allowed to continue upping their insane conspiracy fueled behaviours and rhetoric.



Speaking before several thousand supporters at a “Rally to Protect Our Elections” in downtown Phoenix, former President Donald Trump recited a litany of alleged findings from the Arizona Senate’s self-styled election audit, including a debunked claim that 74,000 mail-in ballots were counted despite no record of them being sent to voters.


“There’s no record of them being sent, but they were counted. So, nobody knows where the hell are they?” Trump told the crowd at Arizona Federal Theatre on July 24.

The former president didn’t realize it, but Trump personally found a voter who had cast one of those ballots. Later in his speech, he asked each of the Republican gubernatorial candidates who had spoken earlier in the day to stand up and be recognized. Among those candidates was state Treasurer Kimberly Yee, who was one of the 74,000 voters.

She was, in fact, very real, and had cast a perfectly legal ballot. According to Maricopa County’s files, Yee cast her ballot in-person at an early voting center on Oct. 28.


Trump’s claim stemmed from a statement made by Doug Logan, the leader of the election review team, that 74,243 mail-in ballots were counted that had “no clear record of them being sent.” Right-wing pundits and supporters of the so-called audit, including those funding it, seized on the number and dubbed those people “phantom voters” who stole the election from Trump.



Logan, who noted that the county’s refusal to cooperate with the audit made his job more difficult, said during testimony in the Arizona Senate on July 15 that he didn’t know whether those ballots were legitimate. He recommended that the audit team resolve the issue by reviving a previously aborted plan to knock on voters’ doors to confirm that they actually cast ballots in the election, a plan that the U.S. Department of Justice said could violate voters’ constitutional rights.

What Logan didn’t mention during his public briefing to Senate President Karen Fann and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Warren Petersen was that he had records from Maricopa County election officials showing that almost every one of those voters had legally cast a legitimate ballot at an in-person early voting center.

And he’d had the records for months.

The county’s master file, known as the “voted list,” shows each person who cast a ballot in the election — and a letter code indicating whether they voted on Election Day, by mail or at an in-person early voting center. The reason there was no record of mail-in ballots being sent to them was because, like Yee, they voted early at an in-person voting center during the last 10 days before the election.

Logan explained to Fann and Petersen that he pulled his numbers from two types of reports that the county elections department provides to political parties during the early voting period. One of the reports, known as an EV32, lists every voter who requested an early ballot each day, while the second, called an EV33, shows every voter who returns an early ballot each day.



ABC15 and the Arizona Mirror examined the same records that Logan has, and found 74,241 people who are listed as voting by early ballot but aren’t on the EV32 reports. Of those voters, 74,238 appear in the master file of general election voters. More than 99.4% of those people — 73,819, to be exact — voted in-person at early voting centers.

Another 392 submitted their ballots by mail and requested them just before the deadline, but the county didn’t process those requests until the next business day, meaning they weren’t included on the EV32 report, election officials said . Another 57 people had recently registered to vote and had separate voter identification numbers — the records were merged after the election — while two other voters mailed ballots that weren’t counted because they didn’t have signatures affixed to them.

That means Logan, who is in charge of a team tasked with determining whether there were problems with the 2020 general election in Maricopa County, either didn’t take the basic step of checking the names against the master list of voters or knowingly told Fann and Petersen — and, by extension, the world — something that was untrue.

Had Logan checked the voted file, he would have found that nearly every one of those 74,000 names was listed as having cast an in-person early ballot. Instead, he made a false claim that quickly gained traction among supporters of the “stop the steal” movement that believes the election was rigged against Trump. Several Republican lawmakers and political candidates in Arizona have used Logan’s testimony to claim that 74,000 ballots were problematic.



After the Senate briefing, Maricopa County accused Logan of failing to understand that not all early ballots are sent in the mail, and that many early voters cast their ballots in person. According to the county, about 209,000 people cast ballots in-person at early voting centers.

Yee didn’t comment on the audit team erroneously claiming that her ballot might have been invalid. In a statement provided by her campaign, she defended the Senate’s election review, saying, “It is essential in our democracy that voters have faith in the process and can trust that they will continue to have their voices heard. I support my former colleagues in the Senate and their efforts conducting the audit, and look forward to seeing the results.”

Most of the votes that Logan flagged were cast by regular Arizonans. One of those voters was Jeffery Mesereau, a 47-year-old Mesa resident who works for the city’s parks and recreation department. He had followed the audit a little and “heard some rumblings” about the 74,000 voters, but didn’t know until learning from reporters on social media that he was one of the voters whose ballot the audit team had flagged as potentially questionable.

“I know I voted, and I know I voted legally,” said Mesereau, a registered Democrat who voted early at the Mesa Convention Center four days before the election.

Gilbert resident Skylar Browning said he hadn’t been following news of the audit closely, but had been “following it enough to know that I could dismiss its seriousness.” When he found out he was one of the 74,000 voters, he said, “I wasn’t surprised, because it seems to be in line with everything I’ve heard about this audit.”

The 46-year-old communications director for a real estate and financial firm said he’s voted in every election since he turned 18, and always votes on Election Day. Last year, Mesereau, a Democrat, decided to vote early after hearing people say that was the best way to ensure his ballot was counted.

“I exist. I voted. I voted the way I was supposed to vote, or instructed to vote. And yet, for me to show up on a ‘phantom voter’ list is entirely consistent with all the other craziness that’s come out of that audit,” Browning said.

Micah Ramos, a registered independent who lives in Mesa, said his opinion of the audit was always low, and got lower still once he found out his ballot was deemed possibly invalid.

“I was kind of thinking like they were kind of throwing stuff out there and seeing what sticks,” Ramos said.

He was skeptical when he first heard the claim about the 74,000 ballots, and said he wasn’t surprised that he was one of those voters after learning that the mistaken conclusion centered on in-person early voters during the 10 days before the election. The 30-year-old software engineer voted early at Arizona State University Polytechnic Campus on Oct. 30.

After Logan made his erroneous claim in the Senate, it quickly became apparent that it was based on in-person early voters who cast ballots during the 10 days before the election.

Maricopa County issued EV33 reports daily until the day before the election, while the last EV32 report came out on Oct. 23, which was the deadline for voters to request early ballots by mail. That left 10 days in which the county issued reports on voters who had returned early ballots but not those who had requested them.

Though voters couldn’t request early ballots by mail after Oct. 23, they could still cast them at in-person early voting centers throughout the county. Each of those votes was recorded on an EV33 report that didn’t have a corresponding EV32 report. The reports are dated, meaning Logan could see clearly that there were 10 days’ worth of reports on early ballot returns that didn’t have a corresponding report on early ballot requests.

Fann and a spokesman for Logan did not respond to a request for comment. Maricopa County officials have repeatedly refused to cooperate with the audit team in any way, and Fann has blamed the county for not answering the team’s questions. Fann previously defended Logan’s claim about the 74,000 votes, saying, “Maricopa County had the records. No one else does.” She refused to comment on the revelation that Logan did, in fact, have the records he needed to verify the validity of those ballots.
 

Agema

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When you come up with a method for having an election and counting votes, you need to assure your populace that the method is secure and fair. As virtually no other first world democracy allows mail in voting as we did, as laws were violated, as voting machines were shown to be completely vulnerable, as subpoenas are ignored and audits refused, you really don't have any faith in this system from me.
It is not possible to ensure the populace trust the election in the way you want.

This is an issue of perception. But perception can exist completely independently of the actual process. One need merely take a look at the accusations that were out there: like the voting machines were built by Hugo Chavez and other such gibberish. A video of some election clerk apparently moving data on a flash drive, a normal process conjured into a fraud claim. Random kooks claiming they were transporting fake ballots and given huge airtime, only for those claims to dissolve upon investigation (but hey, they got ther 15 minutes of fame).

It does not matter what systems you put in place to safeguard your election, if someone raises a sufficiently successful PR assault against its reliability, people can be convinced to believe the election was unsafe. That is all that last year was about. The USA's election system is comparable to anywhere in the West in terms of fairness and security. You can introduce a load more measures, and if someone really wants to launch an assault on that election, the belief of unfairness will work then too. It's not only that, but the key risk of course is that the current rash of election laws are laying the ground for the Democrats to complain about election validity. If the Democrats lose the next presidential election, particularly swing states like Georgia, they can - and some will - come right back at you and claim the Republican state legislators have suppressed Democratic voters, whether or not it is true.

So, either you have elections that both parties agree to respect and not make up stupid bullshit, or you will never, ever have an election regarded as fair.

* * *

And just so we're absolutely clear here, Republican claims of election fraud also need to be contextualised with Trump's overt attempts to annul the vote in so many ways whilst attempting to have himself installed for another term. Such behaviour poses lethal peril to democratic process. Trump is poison, and any Republican that hasn't kicked him to the kerb over it has no business whatsoever querying election validity.
 

BrawlMan

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tstorm823

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If the Democrats lose the next presidential election, particularly swing states like Georgia, they can - and some will - come right back at you and claim the Republican state legislators have suppressed Democratic voters, whether or not it is true.
I agree with basically everything you're saying, I just resent that it only seems to matter if Republicans do a bad thing. Democrats still haven't conceded Stacy Abrams lost. Fringe leftists still haven't conceded Bush won fairly. Donald Trump hasn't done anything (other) Democrats haven't been doing for decades, but people only seem to care now.
 
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Silvanus

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As virtually no other first world democracy allows mail in voting as we did
Canada, the UK, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Liechtenstein.

as laws were violated
Nothing of any significance was actually proven at all.

as voting machines were shown to be completely vulnerable
The claims about the voting machines being compromised was already declared false in court.

as subpoenas are ignored and audits refused
The US held numerous audits and recounts which upheld the outcome of the election.
 
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gorfias

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It is not possible to ensure the populace trust the election in the way you want.

This is an issue of perception. But perception can exist completely independently of the actual process. One need merely take a look at the accusations that were out there: like the voting machines were built by Hugo Chavez and other such gibberish. A video of some election clerk apparently moving data on a flash drive, a normal process conjured into a fraud claim. Random kooks claiming they were transporting fake ballots and given huge airtime, only for those claims to dissolve upon investigation (but hey, they got ther 15 minutes of fame).

It does not matter what systems you put in place to safeguard your election, if someone raises a sufficiently successful PR assault against its reliability, people can be convinced to believe the election was unsafe. That is all that last year was about. The USA's election system is comparable to anywhere in the West in terms of fairness and security. You can introduce a load more measures, and if someone really wants to launch an assault on that election, the belief of unfairness will work then too. It's not only that, but the key risk of course is that the current rash of election laws are laying the ground for the Democrats to complain about election validity. If the Democrats lose the next presidential election, particularly swing states like Georgia, they can - and some will - come right back at you and claim the Republican state legislators have suppressed Democratic voters, whether or not it is true.

So, either you have elections that both parties agree to respect and not make up stupid bullshit, or you will never, ever have an election regarded as fair.

* * *

And just so we're absolutely clear here, Republican claims of election fraud also need to be contextualised with Trump's overt attempts to annul the vote in so many ways whilst attempting to have himself installed for another term. Such behaviour poses lethal peril to democratic process. Trump is poison, and any Republican that hasn't kicked him to the kerb over it has no business whatsoever querying election validity.
To this day, there are Democrats that will call requiring photo ID to vote the new Jim Crow.

Trump? I hope he does not run in 2024. I don't want the election to be about him but rather, the issues.

That and, did we do some 300% more harm to ourselves with our Covid response than the disease did itself? Trump helped make this happen. An argument against him: was the economy built on a house of cards and he knew it? That he wanted the response we gave to excuse a system that was unsustainable and about to collapse?

ITMT: does motive matter? If the Jan 6 trespassers really believed, even if incorrect, they were trying to stop an insurrection, would that be a defense?
Canada, the UK, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Liechtenstein.



Nothing of any significance was actually proven at all.



The claims about the voting machines being compromised was already declared false in court.



The US held numerous audits and recounts which upheld the outcome of the election.
Yet none of what you have written is materially correct (IE, a court that wants to uphold this system finds the system is just fine!!! So convincing!).

Good article: https://www.newsweek.com/voting-fraud-real-concern-just-look-around-world-opinion-1522535
 
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Silvanus

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Yet none of what you have written is materially correct
???

It's demonstrably true that all those countries allow mail-in voting for whomever wants it. It's demonstrably true that no significant law-breaking was proven.

(IE, a court that wants to uphold this system finds the system is just fine!!! So convincing!).
Right, except numerous audits were carried out by Republicans, independent bodies, and non-aligned officials.

On the other hand, the claims of election-rigging exclusively came from the losing side. So convincing!
 
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gorfias

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???

It's demonstrably true that all those countries allow mail-in voting for whomever wants it. It's demonstrably true that no significant law-breaking was proven.



Right, except numerous audits were carried out by Republicans, independent bodies, and non-aligned officials.

On the other hand, the claims of election-rigging exclusively came from the losing side. So convincing!
I understand there were all sorts of changes made that were un-Constitutional, but the USSC would not even hear the cases. Example:

But my question re: 1/6... if the tresspassers, even if incorrect, believed the election stolen and that they thought they were protecting the rule of law... is their motive a defense against the charge of insurrection?
 

Silvanus

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I understand there were all sorts of changes made that were un-Constitutional, but the USSC would not even hear the cases. Example:
So... they extended registration periods? That's what you've got?

And what does this have to do with the incorrect idea that "no other first world country" has mail-in voting like the US?

But my question re: 1/6... if the tresspassers, even if incorrect, believed the election stolen and that they thought they were protecting the rule of law... is their motive a defense against the charge of insurrection?
In legal terms? No, because an incorrect belief motivating an action does not mitigate responsibility for the action (unless the individual is mentally incapacitated or impaired). So, for instance, theft is still theft if the thief wrongly believes that their victim also stole the item from someone else.

Even if hypothetically their motivating belief (that the election was stolen) was correct, they would still be culpable for insurrection, because that would not convey the right to attack the legislature.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I agree with basically everything you're saying, I just resent that it only seems to matter if Republicans do a bad thing. Democrats still haven't conceded Stacy Abrams lost. Fringe leftists still haven't conceded Bush won fairly. Donald Trump hasn't done anything (other) Democrats haven't been doing for decades, but people only seem to care now.
Oh wow, this is such a bad line of thinking it hurts. Comparing trump to fringe leftists is really stupid because he was the fucken president, not some rando yelling on twitter. You cannot pretend this is on the same level at all.