A Group of 270 Scientists, Doctors, etc. Submit Open Letter to Spotify Regarding Joe Rogan (JRE)

Trunkage

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Read the methods of the study... Anyone can do that.

Also, the guy that professionally peer reviews papers said as much, but you, an internet rando, know better than him.


The study says what they looked at to find "similar" places but they miss a bunch of things that don't make them similar. For every study that says masks work, you can do a study with the same or better methods to say masks don't work as there's tons of confounding variables that you can't take into account. That's why you need to do random studies. Are we just going to base drug approvals on looking back on observational data?


Not a video he did...


Or remdesivir that's still being given...


Again, are we just going to base drug approvals on looking back on observational data? Asking to do something normal that we do to prove things work is asking too much? When the best study we have done on masking says cloth masks don't work, that means we should look at all the other more flawed studies and conclude that they work? You are literally giving the same argument of proponents for controversial drugs for masking just because you like masking. Do weigh not weigh large clinical randomized trials to a much much much heavier weight than much smaller trials? Would you throw out the best well done trial on a drug over 50 smaller ones that say something different? Why are we throwing out the Bangladesh study when it's the best one just based on the methods and it's by a long shot? Just cuz you didn't like the results?

You fail to acknowledge why masking is still needed in a covid immune community. What does it matter that a mask might stop you from getting covid today when it won't tomorrow? You have a date with covid, what does it really matter when you get it? That argument made sense when it was to delay X amount of infections to after someone was vaccinated but what's the point of any masking policy now?
Does anywhere have a masking policy? Like, in Europe, US, Australia?
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Also, the guy that professionally peer reviews papers said as much, but you, an internet rando, know better than him.
Just remind you that I am a professional biological scientist who also writes and reviews scientific papers. It's just I don't have a YouTube channel to trick people into believing I'm more of an authority than I actually am.

The study says what they looked at to find "similar" places but they miss a bunch of things that don't make them similar.
Yes, that's a property of basically all studies comparing two things. That's even what a clinical trial does: we gave group X one drug and group Y placebo. Well then, they're testing different groups: they're not exactly the same. The question is how well differences are controlled for, and a clinical trial is very heavily controlled for.

This sort of study necessarily is less strict. But in a wider context of the literature, what the researchers have done is also pretty good, in many ways better than many other similar studies which are acceptable enough. Prasad in his video even basically says so. It's just he's a lot more focused on criticising the paper for its weaknesses. So that leads us to ask, of all the tens of thousands of papers out there, why is Prasad focusing on this paper for detailed criticism on his vlog, when it doesn't seem particularly deserving of being singled out? What's his angle here?

Because I can assure you, to single it out, he has an angle.

Then we consider his dismissiveness towards the Bangladesh mask study. And then...

Not a video he did...
Wrong. https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/how-democracy-ends?s=r

Again, are we just going to base drug approvals on looking back on observational data?
Yes, because we already do.

Firstly, a lot of older drugs were passed by clinical trials far below the standards required today. Go back further to even older drugs, no clinical trial worth the name was ever conducted (e.g. aspirin, paracetamol, morphine). Their continued use is based on decades of observation. Drugs are continually monitored: even if they pass clinical trials, they can later have approval removed or just drop from use... based overwhelmingly on observational studies, because those observational studies are enough to make a point that the drug is less effective or more problematic than originally thought.

Secondly, masks and drugs are different things on many levels. Drugs are regulated because your personal healthcare is in the power of a physician, drugs can readily harm your heath, and society needs to look after all the ethical and practical complications involved in that. Masks don't have a lot of that: a mask mandate is really just a government public health policy. The government can also do a lot of other similar things on evidential standards different from drug approvals, like ban smoking indoors, forcing food producers to supply nutritional data on their products, and making people wear seatbelts in vehicles.

You fail to acknowledge why masking is still needed in a covid immune community.
I have not made an argument that masking is still needed in a covid immune community. I have, somewhere not so long ago, suggested it may be desirable as good practice for individuals to adopt if they are concerned they might have or could catch an infectious respiratory disease (as is the custom in east Asia). I also think it is the right of organisations to expect standards from their staff / clients / customers / etc. if the circumstances warrant them independently of the government.
 

Trunkage

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Alright, been thinking about JR, in particular the interview with Peterson in Jan (I think). I'll give Joe a bit of credit for not falling for it hook, line and sinker and asking question. Very basic questions
 

Agema

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Alright, been thinking about JR, in particular the interview with Peterson in Jan (I think). I'll give Joe a bit of credit for not falling for it hook, line and sinker and asking question. Very basic questions
Jordan Peterson, whatever his faults, is both extremely clever and in a profession / speciality where arguing one's point is bread and butter, and experienced at handling interviews. If Rogan wanted to test Peterson in an interview, Peterson would probably run rings around him.
 

Trunkage

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Jordan Peterson, whatever his faults, is both extremely clever and in a profession / speciality where arguing one's point is bread and butter, and experienced at handling interviews. If Rogan wanted to test Peterson in an interview, Peterson would probably run rings around him.
Im pretty sure that's what happened to Rogan on the last few podcast with him. I'm pretty sure thats why a lot of people are enamored with him without ever engaging with what he said

I don't think it happened as much on this podcast but I'll note that I'm giving praise like I would to a teenager. An actual show of growth in character.... that most adults wouldn't need. Not just letting him run rings but actually asking questions

Come on man, I'm just trying to offer a fig leaf

Anyway, I dont think Peterson is as prepared as much as you think. Anything above Rogan quickly run Peterson into road blocks that he logic headlocked himself into. It's why he has to rely on 'Free Speech' and 'Trans bad' so much
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Jordan Peterson, whatever his faults, is both extremely clever and in a profession / speciality where arguing one's point is bread and butter, and experienced at handling interviews. If Rogan wanted to test Peterson in an interview, Peterson would probably run rings around him.
Pre self-induced Russian coma maybe. Now though, his mushy brain just leaks knotted half-baked platitudes alongside tangled and frayed grievances.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Who's that?
Vinay Prasad

Does anywhere have a masking policy? Like, in Europe, US, Australia?
Almost no peer countries masked kids at least yet in the US is still a point of major contention for no reason. I'm guessing most everyone at some point tried masking.


Just remind you that I am a professional biological scientist who also writes and reviews scientific papers. It's just I don't have a YouTube channel to trick people into believing I'm more of an authority than I actually am.
1) My response wasn't to you
2) I willing to bet that Vinay has far better credentials and has done more complex statistical work

Yes, that's a property of basically all studies comparing two things. That's even what a clinical trial does: we gave group X one drug and group Y placebo. Well then, they're testing different groups: they're not exactly the same. The question is how well differences are controlled for, and a clinical trial is very heavily controlled for.

This sort of study necessarily is less strict. But in a wider context of the literature, what the researchers have done is also pretty good, in many ways better than many other similar studies which are acceptable enough. Prasad in his video even basically says so. It's just he's a lot more focused on criticising the paper for its weaknesses. So that leads us to ask, of all the tens of thousands of papers out there, why is Prasad focusing on this paper for detailed criticism on his vlog, when it doesn't seem particularly deserving of being singled out? What's his angle here?

Because I can assure you, to single it out, he has an angle.

Then we consider his dismissiveness towards the Bangladesh mask study. And then...
I forget which mask study it was. It was one of those mask studies that only looked at like a 2-month period and showed counties in Kansas IIRC had less infections. And then another guy looked at the same exact data but during the fall surge in 2020 and the counties without mask mandates had less infections. That's why you can't look at short time periods. You can make any study with as solid or better methods say masks work or don't work. That's why you need a proper study.

He talked about the paper because others are talking about the paper. He didn't just grab some random paper nobody cares about and talk about it.

The word "mask" isn't even in the article yet he somehow argued that mask mandates are the death of democracy?

Yes, because we already do.

Firstly, a lot of older drugs were passed by clinical trials far below the standards required today. Go back further to even older drugs, no clinical trial worth the name was ever conducted (e.g. aspirin, paracetamol, morphine). Their continued use is based on decades of observation. Drugs are continually monitored: even if they pass clinical trials, they can later have approval removed or just drop from use... based overwhelmingly on observational studies, because those observational studies are enough to make a point that the drug is less effective or more problematic than originally thought.

Secondly, masks and drugs are different things on many levels. Drugs are regulated because your personal healthcare is in the power of a physician, drugs can readily harm your heath, and society needs to look after all the ethical and practical complications involved in that. Masks don't have a lot of that: a mask mandate is really just a government public health policy. The government can also do a lot of other similar things on evidential standards different from drug approvals, like ban smoking indoors, forcing food producers to supply nutritional data on their products, and making people wear seatbelts in vehicles.
Proof for pain relief is very sketchy because of the nature of pain. Somebody can be in immense pain and a placebo can completely get rid of it. I don't have a problem with enacting something like mask mandates that may save lives in a time of emergency when data is unknown. There comes a time when you have to prove said thing works and the time has come for masks, there's no good proof they work. The Bangladesh study is by far the best and it said cloth masks have no evidence of working.

I have not made an argument that masking is still needed in a covid immune community. I have, somewhere not so long ago, suggested it may be desirable as good practice for individuals to adopt if they are concerned they might have or could catch an infectious respiratory disease (as is the custom in east Asia). I also think it is the right of organisations to expect standards from their staff / clients / customers / etc. if the circumstances warrant them independently of the government.
You wouldn't even say that masking outside is bullshit. We still have kids being forced to wear masks playing sports outside in the US, it is beyond ridiculous and has no basis in science whatsoever. It is pointless to mask in a covid immune community, whether people want to "feel safe" and continue masking, that's their prerogative. Forcing it on others is bullshit and not based in any science. And Asian countries have proof that masking works? I believe it's only custom to mask when you're sick (pre-covid). To think masking stops airborne respiratory viruses is a huge reach and has never been shown to. Also, China went hard into ventilation for decreasing covid spread as ventilation works and makes sense. Increasing ventilation is way way way way way better than masking and something the US doesn't even talk about at all. One of my friends that's a teacher, the school had him make sure all the windows were closed and no fans on to reduce the spread of covid, that's literally doing the opposite. One teacher in California in a school where they just made masks optional, had the one kid that stopped wearing his mask sit away from the windows and where the air is most stagnant to reduce potential covid spread. Some of the most idiotic things were done and are still being done over covid. If we would've replaced the time and energy we put into masking and put that into ventilation and/or getting healthy in the fight against covid, far more lives would've been saved.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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That's why you need a proper study.
The fact you employ the term "proper study" rings warning bells. It is rhetorically prejudicial and unscientific.

He talked about the paper because others are talking about the paper.
He talked about it because he's taken sides, and potentially like many arrogant scientists get stuck in the trap of, feels the need to spend lots of time proving he was right all along. I believe even with a million Americans dead of Covid-19, John Ioannidis is still out there trying to make out some of his early estimates (10,000 dead!) were not grotesquely low.

The word "mask" isn't even in the article yet he somehow argued that mask mandates are the death of democracy?
Not masking specifically, but he is clearly taking aim at enforced government health policies, of which masking is one.

Proof for pain relief is very sketchy because of the nature of pain.
It's not just about pain. Morphine was also used as an antitussive and sedative. I could also mention atropine, quinine, hyoscine, barbiturates, etc. for examples of drugs around 1900 and earlier.

Somebody can be in immense pain and a placebo can completely get rid of it.
Bar perhaps some very exceptional circumstances, this is not true. If people get their left leg ripped off by a tiger, I can quite assure you the number who will have their pain removed by a sugar cube is effectively zero.

You wouldn't even say that masking outside is bullshit.
That's because, depending on situation, it is not bullshit. I'm quite happy to agree for just walking down a quiet street, it's a waste of time, but we can have lots of interactions outside which may place us at higher risk.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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That's because, depending on situation, it is not bullshit. I'm quite happy to agree for just walking down a quiet street, it's a waste of time, but we can have lots of interactions outside which may place us at higher risk.
Tangentially, the high school student I was coworkers with at the start of the pandemic got covid from one of those outdoor nighttime interactions

I'll stop masking when the hospitals I deliver to stop masking. Unless my shitbag state government bans masks or something stupid like that
 

Trunkage

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Tangentially, the high school student I was coworkers with at the start of the pandemic got covid from one of those outdoor nighttime interactions

I'll stop masking when the hospitals I deliver to stop masking. Unless my shitbag state government bans masks or something stupid like that
The only place where I live where masks are mandatory are hospitals and age care. Including deliveries. And talking to people there, it does not sound like its going to change soon.