a hypothetical situation

[MorgulMan]

For what it's worth, this is my understanding too, but the association isn't always direct. Basically it's about the division between masculine and feminine, which includes aspects of dress, conversational mannerisms, social graces and interests and the like as well. The connection of sex to these things is generally quite loose.

I don't think this is the best way to make the point, since you're making commitments to "reality" here that are apt to be challenged. That is, who's to say that what you understand to be "real" and grounded is either the way things are "really", or that they will be? In fact, let's make the assumption for the minute that sexual reassignment really does completely facilitate someone to completely take up the reverse sexual identity, or at the very least that such a thing might eventually become medically possible; what we think of as "really possible" in this line of discussion is thus apt to be revised.

You can say pretty much exactly what you want to say without going into "reality" vs "fantasy", which is to talk about it in terms of self-conception and authenticity. Does someone want to be Thomas the Tank Engine just because they think it would be cool to be Thomas the Tank Engine, or because they would like to be like Thomas the Tank Engine in certain ways? The latter doesn't at all really trouble the idea that you can be authentically yourself while finding traits and properties that you value to work towards, but the former (in place of the latter) suggests that you're really not being true to your own development, rather creating a sort of distance from your own self-image.

All this I think is more suited to older child and teenage psychology, in line with the general transgender aspect of the discussion. The development of the younger child's own self-image is probably more along the lines of what you're talking about.

I think I'm more or less in agreement with what you're saying, and your assessment of what I'm saying. In particular, when I talked about social and psychological marks, I think you put it more clearly in talking about dress, mannerisms, graces, and interests. Obviously in today's society, this is really only a "problem" with biological boys who feel inclined to feminine marks, as it is not shocking, unusual, or generally considered unacceptable for women to wear "traditional" men's clothes, do a "man's job", or swear like a sailor. (Whether any of those things are particularly desirable or attractive are up to the individual's tastes.)

So, to adjust or clarify the hypothetical, if my son (hypothetically now a teenager or older) tells me he feels the desire to wear a frilly pink dress, or a thong, or wants to become a gymnast or dance in the ballet, I would treat that in an entirely different way than if he said he wanted to be a woman, or was already a woman. The first group is a bucking of more-or-less arbitrary societal norms, while the second is a violation of (what I think) you refer to as authenticity, what I would say is his biological reality. (I would not be against, in principle, using your terms and arguments, once I fully understood and was able to accept their truth/usefulness.) The one thing I would have SOME issue with is wearing a dress. ("Sorry, son, but you just don't have the figure for it.") Part of that may just be my ingrained expectations, but as I said, I don't think he's have the hips for it...a dress would attempt to accentuate or emphasize body features he doesn't possess. I'd probably try and find out if maybe he'd just consider bringing back the tunic, or robe, or a poncho of some sort. And then I'd realize that this is all my fault for all those Jedi costumes and Nazgul outfits when he was a kid.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'd probably be fairly upset, and would immediately start grilling with questions of "Why?" and such.

I'd also forbid them from acting on it until they had left my home. I'll have raised them under my general understanding of gender (claiming there are no inherent differences is silly) and will have worked hard to get them comfortable in their own skin. To have them basically invalidate all my work would be pretty upsetting. Not to mention that the various "coming out of the closet"s that I've witnessed have always been messy and tend to involve the person who came out being incredibly insensitive and even cruel to those around them during it, which has soured my feelings towards it.

Oh, I'm sorry, do I not fit this forum's But Thou Must standard of tolerance and understanding?

 

[Whispering Cynic]

"Your problem, not mine. Now be quiet, Star Trek's on."

Seriously, you wanna be trans-something? Be my guest, I don't care. If you are old enough to make a decision like this, you are also old enough to deal with it on your own.

 

[loc978]

I'm having difficulty imagining myself as the parent of a living child old enough to speak. I've never had much patience for children, even when I was one myself.

Assuming all of that isn't an issue, my reaction would probably be along the lines of
"Okaaaay... just remember to apply the birds and the bees thing in reverse, then... and try to be safe about it."

 

[lacktheknack]

I'd probably be fairly upset, and would immediately start grilling with questions of "Why?" and such.

I'd also forbid them from acting on it until they had left my home. I'll have raised them under my general understanding of gender (claiming there are no inherent differences is silly) and will have worked hard to get them comfortable in their own skin. To have them basically invalidate all my work would be pretty upsetting. Not to mention that the various "coming out of the closet"s that I've witnessed have always been messy and tend to involve the person who came out being incredibly insensitive and even cruel to those around them during it, which has soured my feelings towards it.

Oh, I'm sorry, do I not fit this forum's But Thou Must standard of tolerance and understanding?

So you would be mad at them for your own perceived failings?

Or am I not reading that right?

Not what I was going for. Think of it as building a house, only to find out that it's about to be used as a small industrial factory.

Really, it's more about personal hangups over transgenderism, but you can't say those here without being set on terrifying fire.

 

[Rainboq]

I'd like to point something out here, Transgenderism isn't purely psychological. There are cases of over exposure to androgens in utero that result in the child having a predisposition towards being transgendered.

It's not really a predisposition, though. Hormonal influences in the womb are one factor in brain setups that simply identify as something different than the body you're born into. But predisposition? You kind of...Are or you aren't.

I'm afraid biology isn't really that cut and dry :/

Being trans can be caused by a variety of factors, and there is no sole cause discovered as of yet, hence why I left out the imperative of saying that the exposure to certain adrogens would directly result in transsexual/transgender-ism, as the child might live their lives as a cis-person and be perfectly happy, or they could not, as I said, biology isn't very cut and dry.

 

[Rainboq]

I'd probably be fairly upset, and would immediately start grilling with questions of "Why?" and such.

I'd also forbid them from acting on it until they had left my home. I'll have raised them under my general understanding of gender (claiming there are no inherent differences is silly) and will have worked hard to get them comfortable in their own skin. To have them basically invalidate all my work would be pretty upsetting. Not to mention that the various "coming out of the closet"s that I've witnessed have always been messy and tend to involve the person who came out being incredibly insensitive and even cruel to those around them during it, which has soured my feelings towards it.

Oh, I'm sorry, do I not fit this forum's But Thou Must standard of tolerance and understanding?

So you would be mad at them for your own perceived failings?

Or am I not reading that right?

Not what I was going for. Think of it as building a house, only to find out that it's about to be used as a small industrial factory.

Really, it's more about personal hangups over transgenderism, but you can't say those here without being set on terrifying fire.

Maybe in your experience, but given what you've said about your past experiences, the views you hold have been created by your past experiences, as they have for all of us, as such, there is nothing inherently wrong with them. Now what you do with your views and biases may or may not be inherently wrong, it really depends on how you apply them and how much damage (be it physical or psychological) you may or may not cause with them.

That being said, why not tolerate the child? You may not be okay with it, but studies have shown that attempting to condition a transperson out of being trans only leads to depression and suicidal urges.

 

[Rainboq]

Situation follows: Okay, I want you to imagine yourself as a parent. Now, this child, of whichever gender, comes out to you as a transgender, what do you do?

Child? What age?

What do they want to do about it?

Reguardless of age if they want to chop off genitals, I have a problem with it. I see that as self mutilation and a form of body dismorphic disorder. Anything else, once they are old enough to make their own choices they can dress how they want and date who they want.

Okay, that's making a straw-man argument and trivializing what a trans person is. As for age, well, most likely in their teens or twenties, old enough to understand how they feel. As for the things with the genitals, many choose not to undergo SRS, and even then, its not simply chopping them off, but I'd rather not get into that, it can get a bit graphic for the squeamish, as such, look up Sex Reassignment Surgery.

 

[Rainboq]

Let them be transgender.
Really, I wouldn't care personally, it's my kid and they can be whoever they want to, I support them wholeheartedly.

This.

Gender is merely a social construct anyway.

OP: By the way, if you mean transgender AND transexual, then... still this. Although the second option is far more expensive, and not covered by my insurance.

Fixed the error, I seem to have a misconception as to what the definitions of Transgendered and transsexual are. :S

 

[redisforever]

Ask, "Are you sure?", talk to them about it for a while, and if they're sure, say ok, and then support whatever they do, unless it's illegal, or course.

 

[Jedoro]

"Cool story, bro."

If they then ask my opinion, I'll reply with "As long as I'm not paying for the operation, go for it."

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Fixed the error, I seem to have a misconception as to what the definitions of Transgendered and transsexual are. :S

If you want to get technical, gender and sex (as in male, female, etc) are two different things. I usually use the words interchangeably, but that is technically incorrect of me. The reason why becomes clear in the definitions of transgender vs transexual.

By my understanding *, and in overly simplified terms, it works like this:

Transgender - my body is female, but I feel male (or other) so I will act like how I feel.

Transexual - my body is female, but I want to be male, so I will alter my body to match how I feel.

So transgender is about feelings and behavior, whereas transexual is about getting sexual reassignment surgery. They are OFTEN the same thing (ie I feel this way, so I will get surgery to make my body match) but some transgenders choose to forgo surgery - particularly if they feel "other" rather than one sex or the other.

[sub]*Note: I know a transgendered individual IRL who isn't interested in surgery. This is my understanding based on what that individual has explained to me concerning his/her feelings on the matter.[/sub]

 

[Lambi]

I'd probably be surprised at first, especially if I hadn't noticed before if they had tried to keep it secret from me, not knowing how I would react. But after the initial reaction, I would support them. They are my child and deserve all my support.

 

[Mischa87]

I hope you don't find this intrusive, but would it be possible to ask about whether there was something in particular about having a male body that contributed to your decision to transition?

Well, that's always a tricky point, I've spent a quarter~ of my life in transsexual support groups, heck, I've even co-founded and ran a transsexual support group, and a general LGBT one. And nowhere have I found someone who could describe the feeling of being born in the wrong body as anything other than that "wrong" but at the same time, that feels like a gross understatement... there just isn't words for how terrible it feels... It's just like... infinitely wrong...

I guess I could throw some stats at you that might put it in perspective. (I can't speak for transmen for the most part, data is often incomplete, most likely due to less work being done with transmen, as they often have a relatively easier time integrating into a satisfactory place in transition, save for actual sex reassignment surgery which many opt out of due to... just being not very effective) The suicide rate for transwomen is about 70% by age 30, and of those 30% who have not by that time, at least roughly 50% have tried at least one (The stats for transmen are about 30% by age 30, not sure on the attempt stats) Then there's the 4/40/400 set of stats for transwomen (sorry transguys, don't have anything like this for you) In comparison to ciswomen (that's natural-born women, and keep in mind these are rough values which I had learned of several years ago, there might be a change) Transwomen are 4 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime, 40 times more likely to be homeless, and 400 times more likely to be a victim of sexual abuse (Considering that 1 in 4 North American women will be sexually abused by their 18th birthday, that's pretty damn grim)

My current theory about transsexualism (as you might have glimpsed if you've read the discussion in this thread) is that the physical changes are instrumental to the aim of full cross-gender transition. I just wondered if your experience might throw up some challenges to that.

Well, that's not entirely true to be honest, there are plenty of non-operative transpeople (People that choose, or for other reasons are unable to get a sex-change operation) Who are no less their gender than people who do get the surgery, or cispeople for that matter.

I can use myself as an example, I would opt out of sex-reassignment surgery at the moment, because I find the results unsatisfactory (as far as sensitivity/orgasmic rate) I also suffer from PDOD (Pleasure Dissociative Orgasmic Disorder) Which basically means I can't even feel an orgasm, and due to how butt-ugly and damaged I am, chances are I will be alone for the remainder of my days (I've come to terms with this) The only time my genitalia even see the light of day is while bathing/changing (And even then, my breasts usually block my view of them *grin*) So not having the operation is not that big of a deal for me personally, of course if the method was perfected, of course I would want it done, but it's just something *I* Personally have to deal with.

Now, yes, there are plenty of transwomen (Never really seen this in transmen) Who basically state that you're not a real woman unless you get the surgery done... Which is pretty hurtful to a lot of people, but I don't really pay them much notice, they're like... To the trans community as femnazis are to women striving for equality, to be pointed at and laughed.

Another thing, is that to be legally female (In Canada, I think the US too, maybe the UK, I apologize, I've been out of the trans-support circle for a couple years now) You do in fact need sex-reassignment surgery, that certainly adds to the drive to have it done.

Hope my relatively incoherent sleep-deprived ramblings have answered more questions than they've created (Or, if you like asking questions, I hope I created some more)

Captcha: ggestern against

 

[Indeterminacy]

I think I'm more or less in agreement with what you're saying, and your assessment of what I'm saying. In particular, when I talked about social and psychological marks, I think you put it more clearly in talking about dress, mannerisms, graces, and interests. Obviously in today's society, this is really only a "problem" with biological boys who feel inclined to feminine marks, as it is not shocking, unusual, or generally considered unacceptable for women to wear "traditional" men's clothes, do a "man's job", or swear like a sailor. (Whether any of those things are particularly desirable or attractive are up to the individual's tastes.)

So, to adjust or clarify the hypothetical, if my son (hypothetically now a teenager or older) tells me he feels the desire to wear a frilly pink dress, or a thong, or wants to become a gymnast or dance in the ballet, I would treat that in an entirely different way than if he said he wanted to be a woman, or was already a woman. The first group is a bucking of more-or-less arbitrary societal norms, while the second is a violation of (what I think) you refer to as authenticity, what I would say is his biological reality. (I would not be against, in principle, using your terms and arguments, once I fully understood and was able to accept their truth/usefulness.) The one thing I would have SOME issue with is wearing a dress. ("Sorry, son, but you just don't have the figure for it.") Part of that may just be my ingrained expectations, but as I said, I don't think he's have the hips for it...a dress would attempt to accentuate or emphasize body features he doesn't possess. I'd probably try and find out if maybe he'd just consider bringing back the tunic, or robe, or a poncho of some sort. And then I'd realize that this is all my fault for all those Jedi costumes and Nazgul outfits when he was a kid.

Ah, good thought. So there are some facets of gender identity where the association to sexual identity is stronger than others. In fashion, this is generally more true of the female/feminine correspondence than the male/masculine. Is there a corresponding virility sign in masculine gender roles? Maybe physical sports and competitiveness have that sort of impact, which would explain the general opposition to tomboyism.

In any case, this association may not be entirely prima facie obvious for the casual observer. After all, why can't girls enjoy playing football, or boys want to show off their figure? It's only later on when sexual maturity comes into play where these associations become more apparent (if they do). And then one's character is contrasted with the sexual identity division by virtue of the interpretive connections that have always been in place on those activities, mannerisms and signs but never fully explained.

Drawing the distinction between transgenderism and transsexualism, then, while the former can be a fairly persistent (albeit oftentimes difficult) issue of resisting societal pressure to adhere to the conventions of masculine/feminine symbolism, the latter is more about when this moment of realising the sigificance between one's non-conforming gender identity and its sexual implications gives rise to serious personal crisis.

I guess the problem here is really about what individuals can do about such a huge cultural imposition. You could quite plausibly respond to this moment of crisis by abandoning the society you currently live in for one in which sexual connotations are diminished. But I doubt there are many examples of this, and it might still be a serious and disturbing event to go through even if you can successfully integrate into the new society. You might also take the opportunity to strongly oppose the necessity of persistent sexual interpretation. But it's not always worth peoples' time to do that. I'm happy to fight that battle because I'm interested in language and symbolism anyway, but if you're just not aware of the nature of the problem, or haven't the resources or confidence to openly oppose social standards, then it seems incredibly unfair to demand you fight for your own personal sanity.

So I see where transsexuals are coming from a bit better with that clarification. It still seems like the occurrence of transsexualism points to a radical instability in the way our culture glorifies sex in even the most seemingly innocuous ways. I would say that I would appreciate more people acknowledging that it is a social problem, rather than dissolving the pressure by going through transition, but acknowledge that it's probably unfair to demand that people having such problems follow me into the much more difficult path to resolving their problem.

 

[Discord]

My response?

*Ahem*

"That's nice, Um Take our the trash would ya". Seriously, I mean What else can I say I don't give a crap about these things. I know that's easy for me to say now because I don't have kids and stuff but I like to believe there are worse things a child could say to a parent...

" I'm pregnant"
"I might be infected with something"
"I'm dropping out of middle school" (It happens, trust me)
"I wrecked your 68 Camaro"

I mean in my eye the job of a parent is to teach and guide and if that's the child's choice, hey more power to ya and I got your back. There's so much other troubles in the world and they only get bigger, If i can help remove some by being a level of support then I've done some good.

 

[Indeterminacy]

Well, that's always a tricky point, I've spent a quarter~ of my life in transsexual support groups, heck, I've even co-founded and ran a transsexual support group, and a general LGBT one. And nowhere have I found someone who could describe the feeling of being born in the wrong body as anything other than that "wrong" but at the same time, that feels like a gross understatement... there just isn't words for how terrible it feels... It's just like... infinitely wrong...

That's fine, I'm not going to put any pressure on you to that effect. Thanks for trying though.

I guess I could throw some stats at you that might put it in perspective. (I can't speak for transmen for the most part, data is often incomplete, most likely due to less work being done with transmen, as they often have a relatively easier time integrating into a satisfactory place in transition, save for actual sex reassignment surgery which many opt out of due to... just being not very effective) The suicide rate for transwomen is about 70% by age 30, and of those 30% who have not by that time, at least roughly 50% have tried at least one (The stats for transmen are about 30% by age 30, not sure on the attempt stats) Then there's the 4/40/400 set of stats for transwomen (sorry transguys, don't have anything like this for you) In comparison to ciswomen (that's natural-born women, and keep in mind these are rough values which I had learned of several years ago, there might be a change) Transwomen are 4 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime, 40 times more likely to be homeless, and 400 times more likely to be a victim of sexual abuse (Considering that 1 in 4 North American women will be sexually abused by their 18th birthday, that's pretty damn grim)

There's no doubt it's tough. Societal attitudes towards transgendered individuals in general are shocking, and while those figures about abuse are really very sad reading, they're not entirely unexpected.

Well, that's not entirely true to be honest, there are plenty of non-operative transpeople (People that choose, or for other reasons are unable to get a sex-change operation) Who are no less their gender than people who do get the surgery, or cispeople for that matter.

Okay, sure. It might be possible to quite happily live with a feminine gender while in a male body, given the freedom to be sufficiently expresssive in a feminine way. Though I'm including (for instance) people who go into full HRT but no further as Transsexuals rather than transgendered.

I can use myself as an example, I would opt out of sex-reassignment surgery at the moment, because I find the results unsatisfactory (as far as sensitivity/orgasmic rate) I also suffer from PDOD (Pleasure Dissociative Orgasmic Disorder) Which basically means I can't even feel an orgasm, and due to how butt-ugly and damaged I am, chances are I will be alone for the remainder of my days (I've come to terms with this) The only time my genitalia even see the light of day is while bathing/changing (And even then, my breasts usually block my view of them *grin*) So not having the operation is not that big of a deal for me personally, of course if the method was perfected, of course I would want it done, but it's just something *I* Personally have to deal with.

I think this gets very close to the real heart of my question, so thanks very much for talking about it. I guess I'm really wondering about whether the level of change in sexual identity that best resolves the feeling of gender dysphoria might be different depending on the conditions and society transsexual people live in. In your current position, you accept (though perhaps not as an ideal) that moving towards a "complete" sexual reasignment would not be the best resolution of your gender identity at present. But had things been different and the medical environment better suited towards effective surgery, you would want to use this additional level of physical correction. Would the compromise point be less tolerant of "partial" transitions if the techniques of surgery and gender dysphoria diagnosis were improved and made more generally available? And would this be an acceptable consequence?

It might be a moot point, of course, since society at large seems pretty intolerant of "partial" transitions anyway. The particular societal change that interests me in this respect is precisely that of changing attitudes towards gender roles. Would there be less pressure to transition in a world where we don't mind so much whether you're strictly masculine or feminine? Or would we rather be more open towards transitioning towards a sexual identity that matches individual gender variations? It's not an easy thing to try to speculate on, or even to try to think about possible consequences.

Given that the last 4 years or so seem to have been something of a shocking social regression in the face of economic downturn, rather than a positive change, that, too, might be a moot question.

Now, yes, there are plenty of transwomen (Never really seen this in transmen) Who basically state that you're not a real woman unless you get the surgery done... Which is pretty hurtful to a lot of people, but I don't really pay them much notice, they're like... To the trans community as femnazis are to women striving for equality, to be pointed at and laughed.

Another thing, is that to be legally female (In Canada, I think the US too, maybe the UK, I apologize, I've been out of the trans-support circle for a couple years now) You do in fact need sex-reassignment surgery, that certainly adds to the drive to have it done.

Hope my relatively incoherent sleep-deprived ramblings have answered more questions than they've created (Or, if you like asking questions, I hope I created some more)

Questions are good, and I think your contribution has added some more meat to the bones of the bigger questions I've been mulling over. =D

There's one other question I did have, though, which is about the apparent oddness of a transsexual "community". I mean, I accept that there is a clear and important function of being able to talk things over with fellow transsexual people for support and encouragement. But presumably a lot of people go into the transition process with the idea of passing as the other sex; potentially even to the point of keeping secret that they were ever the original in the first place. Doesn't this make relationships within the community rather turbulent?

 

[Last Hugh Alive]

Well, what could I really say? I can disagree all I want but the child will still do what they enjoy doing. All I can do is relax, it is most likely just a phase.