A Letter to the Moderation, and a Defense of Wynn.

Canadamus Prime

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shrekfan246 said:
Elvis Starburst said:
I shouldn't have to even remind anyone how hated it is that people skirt the passive-aggressive rule in order to bait the person they're arguing with. We expected those people to be punished.
This is actually kind of a hilarious area where this community has never been able to actually hold a consistent position when you look at events of moderation.

People have been complaining that troublemakers skirt by the rules through passive-aggressiveness since before I joined these forums, and while that does have some merit, this is far from the first time that a user who was a persistent issue has been removed from the forum despite their actual posts not explicitly breaking the Code of Conduct. And every time said users are banned, there's a sudden backlash about how actually they weren't really deserving of a ban, at least not for whatever post inevitably got marked as their banned-for one.
I think they need to introduce a "camel's back" clause into the CoC to deal with this sort of situation. Meaning that if someone makes an ass of themselves long enough without explicitly breaking any of the rules the mods can still bring down the hammer on them.
 

Fiona Callahan

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TVtropes calls it the Unpleasable Fanbase.

I think if there was litteraly no conspiracy and the mods were fully transparent, people would complain of too much transparency. I've come to the belief, and it honestly has yet to be disproven, that people complain for the sake of complaining, because they find it fun and entertaining. They will complain and complain because it gives them something to do. This is all just my opinion, but there is a 99.9% chance I'm going to be attacked over it.
 

Pyrian

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shrekfan246 said:
I'm mostly just noting how the moderators here have never been able to win, because even when people have complained that the moderation was too lenient, they were still complaining that it was too harsh and oppressive.
Nailed it. The moderation is too heavy-handed on the people I agree with and too lenient to the people I disagree with. Even if there was some platonic ideal of perfect moderation, it would be criticized on both accounts. Personally, I think the "passive aggressive" accusation is mostly BS. If someone has their argument torn to shreds and resorts to personal attacks in retaliation, it's entirely on them, not on the people who took issue with their position and countered it.
 

PointlessKnowledge

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Fiona Callahan said:
TVtropes calls it the Unpleasable Fanbase.

I think if there was litteraly no conspiracy and the mods were fully transparent, people would complain of too much transparency. I've come to the belief, and it honestly has yet to be disproven, that people complain for the sake of complaining, because they find it fun and entertaining. They will complain and complain because it gives them something to do. This is all just my opinion, but there is a 99.9% chance I'm going to be attacked over it.
People love to complain. And if you want, as some people like that sort of thing, I can attack you. =D
 

Fappy

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Fiona Callahan said:
I've come to the belief, and it honestly has yet to be disproven, that people complain for the sake of complaining, because they find it fun and entertaining.
Most people would not argue this.

In fact, this has likely been the driving force behind most of the forum's traffic since I joined the site. We love to hate, so to speak, and forum drama can be entertaining to some.

Remember the ME3 ending forum wars?
 

The Lunatic

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I don't particularly disagree with Wynn's banning.

I'd have preferred if we'd had a "We're going to be stricter" on this announcement before hand. But, I mean, let's face it. We all knew it was going to happen, and it'd gone on for long enough.

The situation with Topaz is still sketchy as all hell. And we've yet to get an apology, or explanation. The only response we've had so far is "I won't do it again because I can't be bothered", which, you'll forgive me for not finding convincing.

Bluegate, again, huge double standard with Topaz.

Beyond that, I don't really have much to say on the state of moderation. Escapist community is decent for the most part, a few bitter and toxic people knocking about, but, as long as there's a degree of civility, that's fine. Basement Cat, again I'm not convinced on, but, I'm willing to give them a chance, so far, not great though, if we're being honest.

Resolving the Topaz issue seems to most immediate of concerns.
 

Fiona Callahan

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Bluegate is actually Epyc's fault, Epyc basically screwed him over and left him out to dry, but I degress. enough with the epyc wynn talk, he's gone, the forum's better for it.

Like I said before, complaining for the sake of complaining, when people stop doing this, THEN real change can happen, Until then, well, we might as well be trying to run up a steep cliff without superpowers or any climbing equipment, because lets face it, while the complaining for the sake of complaining still exsists, nothing can get done. Its like the ultimate in procrastination.

PointlessKnowledge said:
Fiona Callahan said:
TVtropes calls it the Unpleasable Fanbase.

I think if there was litteraly no conspiracy and the mods were fully transparent, people would complain of too much transparency. I've come to the belief, and it honestly has yet to be disproven, that people complain for the sake of complaining, because they find it fun and entertaining. They will complain and complain because it gives them something to do. This is all just my opinion, but there is a 99.9% chance I'm going to be attacked over it.
People love to complain. And if you want, as some people like that sort of thing, I can attack you. =D
I'd rather not. I don't like being attacked. Call me thin-skinned or overly sensitive, but I think such things just create more of a toxic enviroment.
 

Xprimentyl

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I?m not the most active person on the forum, so I wasn?t around for all the ruckus and intrigue of recent memory (and not sorry about that,) but after reading this thread, there seems to be quite a few people who?re passionate and have a vested interest in this ?place,? so I?d offer those folks might not want to look the gift horse in the mouth. From what I?m understanding, the mods are performing this function for FREE, keeping a captain-less ship afloat as best as they can for nothing. Without what they do, none of us would have this place to converse civilly let alone to ***** about how we think the mods should be doing their work. And before anyone proclaims that they?ll happily go elsewhere (and you very well may,) if the perceived conspiracy and lack of transparency is so off-putting, any one of us is more than welcome to find another site, but as so many of us continue to return here (despite myriad, jaded and cynical threads about ?The Escapist is dead,?) I suspect many of us can agree there?s more left here to appreciate than there is clandestine abuses of power to worry about. I don?t/didn?t know Wynn or any of his antics as I?m not a premium member and not privy to the apparent Sodom and Gomorrah that is the Wild West, but as the consensus on both sides of the argument seems to be he was a douche, pushing the limits of the rules even where there basically are none, then I see no issue with the mods using their ?power? to remove the problem. After all, if I was doing a thankless task for free and had some asshole screaming in my face while I?m doing it, I?d resolve the situation to MY liking as well, as would YOU I suspect. This is just a website, a place none of us ?deserves? (we aren?t owed anything,) just one we can enjoy as it is until it inevitably sinks into a mod-less, spambot-infested used-to-was of a gaming site we can remember fondly.
 

IceForce

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Fiona Callahan said:
Bluegate is actually Epyc's fault, Epyc basically screwed him over and left him out to dry
I actually disagree with this, to an extent. In fact, I'm surprised at the number of people in this sorry saga that are willing to absolve Bluegate of any guilt or self-responsibility.

Bluegate was a fool. Not only did he betray the trust of his moderator colleagues by taking screenshots without them knowing, but he then went and shared those screenshots with Wynn. He should have known that handing over moderator screenshots to an unhinged moron like Wynn was going to end badly, for them both.

Wynn is to blame too, of course. Apparently the screenshots were shared with him in the strictest confidence and privacy, but Wynn went and leaked them to the public anyway.

So yeah, the way I see it, they're both as bad as each other. And it's a good thing they're both gone.
 

Ugicywapih

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I don't really know the circumstances behind the Basement Cat and Topaz issues, so I'd generally rather avoid the subject.

That being said, given that what they've done was supposedly similar to what Bluegate did, this does send a somewhat unfortunate message, especially considering that BG leaked mod chat regarding a specific user to that particular user, so I'd find the issue of how much of a breach of privacy that really was somewhat debatable. I am by no means implying mods have no right to privacy, or that there's no room for internal communications - rather, I don't consider discussions regarding official functions "private" and I believe that passing judgement upon a user, especially a novel and potentially controversial sort of judgment, should be done a tad more openly. Even if we do consider Bluegate's actions to be a breach of privacy, I'd say between my former points and ongoing concerns about insufficient transparency, there's a lot one could consider as mitigating circumstances. And of course given that Topaz has been brought back for entirely pragmatic reasons, the fact that to my knowledge BG was also by far the most tech-savvy person on the mod team, effectively brought in as a volunteer one-man tech team stand-in might also bear consideration. Nabbing someone like that was a stroke of exceptional luck and without him (or Defy suddenly deciding to fund a proper tech team, haha), I'm guessing the site's doomed to deteriorate into oblivion over time. I suppose words should have been had, maybe, but dropping him like that? I probably don't have the whole picture, but from where I'm standing it looks like a very bad idea.

Wynn... Wynn is a petulant and entitled drama queen with an ego so inflated his real last name is probably von Zeppelin.
That being said, the few times I engaged him in direct conversation it was possible to get through to him, at least to some degree. Plus, he seemed to actually care, to the point where he wanted to be involved in stuff just for the hell of it. I understand not everyone has the patience to deal with the sort of shenanigans he regularly pulled and the guy could get real annoying in a hurry, but he's not all bad. I actually really liked the idea of depubbing him - like most other users, including myself, he wasn't entitled to the free sub and I think most people complaining about that solution forget he still could've just gotten a paid sub if he really wanted to (and TBH I wouldn't be too surprised if he did just that before long if not for the ban). Removing his WW access prevented the most egregious annoyances from his repertoire without resorting to an outright ban (which he very well earned a while back, but that call hasn't been made at the time). I thought about the whole thing as a probation, or an attempt to detoxify him a bit and the ban kinda makes the whole point of this - IMO actually quite elegant - solution moot, sadly enough.

All in all, while I believe some issues could have been handled better, especially Bluegate, I'm also pretty sure there isn't any underlying ill will on the mods' side, much less any nefarious conspiracy. They're just unpaid volunteers - being professional [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional] doesn't exactly come with the territory.

Of course on the other hand...
n0e said:
Fox12 said:
There are rules governing the removal of pub club membership? I find that difficult to believe, as the handing out of mass pub club memberships was unprecedented
I never said there are rules to the removal of pub club membership. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Also, really? You think there's some sort of conspiracy about a large amount of the members getting pubclub membership? *shakes head* It's really nothing you need to worry about, nor is it my business to discuss it.
That's just what you'd say if you were in on a modspiracy, isn't it n0e?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Okay so can anyone actually tell me what Wynn did? From what I can gather he's kinda' a dick who spams memes too much. What's so infamous?
 

Fiona Callahan

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Iceforce, to be fair. Epyc's the juicier target. When you make the biggest anus out of yourself, its impossible to not paint a target on it and then go "Target locked." tis why people focused more on Epyc's bullshit then whatever Bluegate did.

Epyc's a walking bullshit factory. His entire exsistance is basically to be dissed by everything that exsists.

So yeah, at least thats my reasoning for why people ignored what bluegate did and targeted him.

Edit: Okay. I'm about to label damn near everyone in this thread as having a conspiracy fetish. Seriously.

Silentpony said:
Okay so can anyone actually tell me what Wynn did? From what I can gather he's kinda' a dick who spams memes too much. What's so infamous?
Edit2: Epyc was being the single most obnoxious douchenozzle humanly possible. Everything the mod's did, and dear god do I mean everything, he flipped out on, He attacked people, then got all whiny when called out on his bullshit, He respected no one, acted like he owned the place. He's a Narcissistic idiot with a god complex.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Fwiw, in regards to topaz and blue, topaz shared user group stuff he can't access anymore. Blue shared mod stuff that I assume any mod will always have access to, given a mod not in mod chat seems... not as useful? Namely, topaz can't repeat offend in the same way, blue always would be able to unless he was the only mod not in their discord chat.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Also I think threatening the mods with prolonged social conflict unless the give in to demands was a stupid idea and deserves a good smack with the banhammer.
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Silentpony said:
Okay so can anyone actually tell me what Wynn did? From what I can gather he's kinda' a dick who spams memes too much. What's so infamous?
He had strange political views and would sperg out at people when they wouldn't take him seriously. He thinks the internet should be its own country and that in the meantime, private forums need to enforce the First Amendment to the United States constitution (Despite the fact that many speech acts are legal here that are explicitly illegal elsewhere in the world)

Also Wynn got what he wanted: He wanted to go down in a blaze of glory as a martyr. It's just that few others saw it that way.
 

Ugicywapih

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
Fwiw, in regards to topaz and blue, topaz shared user group stuff he can't access anymore. Blue shared mod stuff that I assume any mod will always have access to, given a mod not in mod chat seems... not as useful? Namely, topaz can't repeat offend in the same way, blue always would be able to unless he was the only mod not in their discord chat.
Good point but then again, I wouldn't expect Blue to repeat that infraction as easily given that he was one of the people closest to being actually supportive of Wynn in general and it should also be remembered Topaz initially came back on an alt, meaning he could've easily used the new account's "clean slate" to get into most usergroups if he really wanted to.
The Decapitated Centaur said:
Also I think threatening the mods with prolonged social conflict unless the give in to demands was a stupid idea and deserves a good smack with the banhammer.
Normally, maybe, given that he threatened social conflict with a large part of the userbase. That being said, Wynn has repeatedly made statements and threats hinging on him having relentless support of a major part of the community. Where he got that idea, I'll never know, but I don't think anyone else here was deluded enough to take it seriously. I'm not sure he was serious about it either TBH.
 

Fox12

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NewClassic said:
If you really cared about the site, you'd spend less time making these threads, and more time streamlining your thoughts so moderators could read through them quickly. Instead, every thousand words you make the administration read is another second they could be working on new content (irony at work, right?), answering messages from people who may actually have similar concerns but pick more direct venues for these thoughts, and spending less time paying attention to the usual malcontents who thrive in threads like these.

I can't imagine the answer is anything I want to hear, but I'm endlessly curious as to what your idealized end-goal is here. Do you want the forum community to collectively rise up and overthrow the corrupt higher-ups? If so, I can happily recommend ResetEra [https://www.resetera.com/], a forum made by former NeoGAF mods who departed following the recent social outcry of the creator's behavior. If you really desperately believe that is your promised land, I encourage to go out and live your dreams.

If you want a more open community, one of the first things you'll have to accept is that it won't always happen. You continue to repeat "It doesn't have to be the way it is" like we don't already know that, but stuff has operated the way it has for over a decade now for a reason. It's not the only reason we'll listen to, but it's wisdom we aren't just throwing out as a matter of course. User privacy is non-negotiable, so the apparent incessant demand to justify everything we do, moderation-wise, will never happen. If you don't like it, I'm sorry; leave. Total transparency will likewise never happen, and for practical reasons. Ideas go from 0 to 90% completed constantly, and can go from being considered to being shuttered at any time. Sometimes things change in the space of a few minutes, and chronicling all of these changes means nothing to 95% of the population. And the 5% will only care long enough to make more threads like these, which take more time from the administration, and create more posts like these which will inspire more threads like these, which take more time from the administration, and create more...

You get the picture.

If you really want change, I'm happy for you, but public spectacles aren't the way to do it. They only ever waste time. The change you want to enact may never come, but any change at all from this system you're clearly unhappy with will never be improved or accelerated by threads like these.

So please stop wasting our time.

If you want this to be a discussion among the community about how to improve the rules, that's fine. Discuss. But if you want to put up long-winded wanted posters about the moderation and administration under the veil of wanting "communication," then the only thing that you'll create for us is staff hours spent on nothing--time we'll never get back and a community that will feel empowered to keep demanding. If you want a moderation team that listens to you, think about the rammifications of your tone, structure, and argument. Make it as easy for us as possible so we can actually do stuff with it without long internal conversations and deviations to deal with people in this thread--both for and against moderation--who are all sharpening their torches and lighting their pitchforks. If you want a site that is vastly different from the one that's here at present, then find a different site. None of us have the educational background of lawyers (at least not since DEFY fired them), nor are any of us paid even fractions of the money they do to care about the exhausting minutae you seem convinced is the only way the Escapist will ever be good.

Whatever you want, there are countless better ways to do it. All this unpaid work does is slow down the rest of the work that any of us should be doing, or better yet, would have already done without all of this.
It's a relief to know how much value the staff place on the community
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Wynn? ...Is that you? You can tell us if it is, we won't judge. Well, not all of us.

I await the arrival of new user 'Awesome Vyctory' any day now...

Gethsemani said:
The storm raged on, unabated and unfettered, it ferociously tore into anything it could take hold off. It raged and it screamed and it caused havoc. But for all its' raging and all its' commotion the storm could not escape one thing. For try as it might it could never escape those porcelain walls that encroached it on all sides. And even as it roared aloud its' most mighty fury and poured out all its' rage, the breakfast guests outside of its' enamel prison noticed it not. Such was the curse of the storm in the tea cup.
*Chortle*
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Ugicywapih said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
Fwiw, in regards to topaz and blue, topaz shared user group stuff he can't access anymore. Blue shared mod stuff that I assume any mod will always have access to, given a mod not in mod chat seems... not as useful? Namely, topaz can't repeat offend in the same way, blue always would be able to unless he was the only mod not in their discord chat.
Good point but then again, I wouldn't expect Blue to repeat that infraction as easily given that he was one of the people closest to being actually supportive of Wynn in general and it should also be remembered Topaz initially came back on an alt, meaning he could've easily used the new account's "clean slate" to get into most usergroups if he really wanted to.
I do doubt he'd do it, just the difference is they can't reasonably remove that from a mod, but they did for topaz. Topaz sneaking in would have been different, the problem was him using his mod powers to do it. If someone is just a dick, infiltrates and shares, that's not the same. Would be scummy for a mod tho.

The Decapitated Centaur said:
Also I think threatening the mods with prolonged social conflict unless the give in to demands was a stupid idea and deserves a good smack with the banhammer.
Normally, maybe, given that he threatened social conflict with a large part of the userbase. That being said, Wynn has repeatedly made statements and threats hinging on him having relentless support of a major part of the community. Where he got that idea, I'll never know, but I don't think anyone else here was deluded enough to take it seriously. I'm not sure he was serious about it either TBH.
I think the prolonged social conflict thing is just him being a pain for the mods by continuing the same behavior where he jncessenantly complains.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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CM156 said:
Silentpony said:
Okay so can anyone actually tell me what Wynn did? From what I can gather he's kinda' a dick who spams memes too much. What's so infamous?
He had strange political views and would sperg out at people when they wouldn't take him seriously. He thinks the internet should be its own country and that in the meantime, private forums need to enforce the First Amendment to the United States constitution (Despite the fact that many speech acts are legal here that are explicitly illegal elsewhere in the world)

Also Wynn got what he wanted: He wanted to go down in a blaze of glory as a martyr. It's just that few others saw it that way.
...is that it? Seriously? He's an attention troll who got a bunch of attention and...that's it? He didn't Dox anyone, didn't post nudes, didn't spam Bane, didn't drive to your house and ring your doorbell, didn't leave poop on the steps of Escapist HQ?
Just some dude posting random channer shit?