A little moral quandary for you all...

Lieju

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FalloutJack said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Transgendered people have brain chemistry that makes them think they are the opposite gender of what they were born as.
Actually, transgendered people identify with neither side fully, hence the conversation in another thread about them referring to themselves as 'they' instead of he or she.
Some transgender people will. Maybe there is a confusion in terms, since these can be different depending on the country or community.

For example, in Finnish, 'transgender' means that kind of person, who doesn't feel they're either male nor female. (There is also a Finnish term for it, muunsukupuolinen)

Also obviously transpeople disagree on things, some would prefer it if gender was never assumed, some see being trans as a different kind of identity etc.

As for OP, doing something like that against someone's will? No.
 

Erttheking

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zumbledum said:
erttheking said:
I have yet to encounter any situation where forcefully changing the way people think is a good thing.

This thread is no exception.
depressed people, manic depressives, bi-polar s, sociopaths, psychopaths. pedophiles, rapists, schizophrenics , Munchhausen's , self harmers and most other mental conditions. heck throw in the uneducated ,ignorant,intolerant and people that don't think i'm right!
Ok first of all, being a rapist isn't a mental condition. Second of all, at what point would a depressive person being forced to have their condition removed benefit society as a whole? Third of all, plenty of bi-polar people function perfectly well in society, no need to addle their brains.

And honestly you crossed the line into uncomfortable territory when you said "ignorant" because who gets to decide what mindset's are "ignorant" and deserve to be wiped out?

We don't live in Oceania.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Thing is there have been transgender people who have the surgery and then later switch back to their original gender so I think the cure option would be good. But given as a choice for each person to decide as opposed to giving it to every transgen person. Choice is always good.
 

Vivi22

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Aerosteam said:
Pretty sure giving the person the choice is always the best thing to do.
Oh look, the thread is over in the very first reply. Who saw that coming?
 

Brainpaint

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FalloutJack said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Transgendered people have brain chemistry that makes them think they are the opposite gender of what they were born as.
Actually, transgendered people identify with neither side fully, hence the conversation in another thread about them referring to themselves as 'they' instead of he or she. Not important. You have questions, Jack has answers.

OT: I must throw my opinion alongside those who say that the choice is theirs and theirs alone. My reasoning is simple. I have a condition which is also the result of a differing brain from the norm: I am autistic. Let me tell you that people who refer to it as a clinical problem - as though diseased - bother the hell out of me. What scares me is that someone will try to find a cure and that such a thing would diminish who I am.

Because, one thing that these two things could be said to have in common is that they make up an important part of the personality. It might be nice for a severe autistic whose perception and personal reactions do not lead to regular communication capacity with everyone else felt more in line with others enough to have a decent conversation, but I am certain that I derive strength from my unusual perspective. To force that away would be heartless and cruel. And so, by that token, to remove something from someone who does not want that removes should not be done.

The only real exception exists in a case where to leave it be somehow allows it to be extremely harmful. I'm not sure how or why that would be, but that would be the only proviso I could think of.
^
I am both on the autism and trans spectrum (I identify as non-binary) I have a perspective unlike everyone else I know. Everybody has a different perspective and identity. There is no one standard of a "person". What would they use as a basis for the brain-rewiring treatment to re-organise the pathways to? Because everyone has their differences based on personal experiences and growth.

The idea of giving people an option to change who they've been since birth is also a pretty disturbing concept.
I know everybody here is saying that it should be up to the individual to choose but where do you draw the line on who is and isn't treated? And who else would come forward for this treatment? Left-handed people? People with more severe disabilities? Those with mental disorders like psycho and sociopaths? Would the prison system use a system like this to "correct" criminal behaviour?
Would gay, lesbian, bisexual etc people and those with illegal or socially unacceptable fetishes and desires such as paedophiles, necrophiles and zoophiles come forward for it? And then there's the idea that such people being "reformed" by this method could make some people desire it to be forced upon those individuals rather than a choice they make (a lot of people would probably want that with paedophiles) and then what? Where would THAT end?

So many possibilities with it and so many possible horrors at the same time.
Essentially lobotomising people to fit a non-existant standard could never end well even if they wanted it. Society itself would go steps backward. The problems of lack of acceptance and understanding would stop being deemed the bigot's problem and become the problem of the individual with the difference for not going through the procedure.
"They could easily get their 'disorder' cured. It's their own fault that people still attack them for it."

Also, how do you treat those that are intersex? Do they choose which binary gender they identify with and surgery does the rest of the work?

Anyway, there is a lot more to this than the element of "choice". Thankfully it's only speculation and not reality yet.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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I'd be iffy about forcing something like this for conditions that could be dangerous, like psychopathy. For something as harmless as transgenderism? Not a chance; it would need to be fully voluntary.

I also look really askance at phrasing like "moral obligation to correct". You start encroaching into areas like eugenics with a mindset like that.
 

Yopaz

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Any personality abnormalities (sorry for the use of this term) that can not be concluded to be mental illness or that has any ill effect on a person's ability to live his/her life normally should be considered acceptable.

Now there are some reasons why people who are transgendered or homosexual would like to change, but there's nothing saying everyone should change. I would rather live in a world where we respect each other regardless of personality traits, sexuality or mental state than a world obsessed with "fixing" everything that does not conform to the norm. This is why I am hesitant to even say we should have this as an offered treatment. We look down upon people who choose not treat themselves when there is available treatment.
 

Haerthan

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Machine Man 1992 said:
So I've tossing this moral/philosophical question around and I figured I'd share it with the Escapist for the purposes of engaging in a Socratic exercise:

Transgendered people have brain chemistry that makes them think they are the opposite gender of what they were born as. Now, lets say scientists come up with some revolutionary treatment that alters the brain chemistry to match the person's birth gender. Essentially they can "cure" trans people of being trans (i.e. They would identify as the gender they were born as), removing the gender confusion and likely sparing them a great deal of hardship.

Should this cure be administered to all people who are trans? Why or why not? Should they be given a choice to live as they are, or are we under moral obligation to correct this quirk? Trans people often live hard lives, not just because of hate crimes, but also the daily confusion and secondary mental disorders like depression. Is it right to forcefully (or even strongly encourage) administer the cure if it means letting them live healthy lives amongst the majority? But even if it was for their own good, is giving a cure like that right?

I want to hear your opinions on this matter.
No. A cure like that can only be done with the approval of the patient and nobody else's. Otherwise we are turning into the Nazis and their doctrine of pure blooded Aryans. Doctors, due to their Hippocratic oath, won't administer such a cure (at least I would hope so, I mean Josef Mengele was a doctor). The idea of "curing" them sounds something a Nazi would spout.
 

Mezahmay

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Voluntarily choosing treatment is scary enough. I don't think those who have mental issues would benefit in the long term having treatment forced on them.
 

Pinkamena

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If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
 

zumbledum

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erttheking said:
Ok first of all, being a rapist isn't a mental condition. Second of all, at what point would a depressive person being forced to have their condition removed benefit society as a whole? Third of all, plenty of bi-polar people function perfectly well in society, no need to addle their brains.

And honestly you crossed the line into uncomfortable territory when you said "ignorant" because who gets to decide what mindset's are "ignorant" and deserve to be wiped out?

We don't live in Oceania.
If feeling the compunction to rape isnt a mental thought condition what is it? point in making someone not depressed i would of thought is self evident, they wont be depressed anymore. plenty of un medicated bi-polars? or are we not counting psychological pharmaceuticals as mind altering.
Ignorance isnt a good thing (it's a lack of knowledge) not sure why you want to preserve it and how telling people things crosses a line or why you think i want to just nuke them, it's a bit beyond me , simple explanations cure ignorance no need for invasive or extreme methods.

never heard of Oceania , see in this regard i am ignorant and unable to understand your point this not being a good thing (imo if not yours) i took 5 mins to google it discover its a 1984 reference now i understand your jab. but i don't really think education equates to a dystopian big brother future, i more see it as the panacea for such issues. Why are you so against telling people stuff or Education as its institutionally known.
 

Haerthan

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Pinkamena said:
If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
I really hope you are joking. I really hope so. Because what you just said is wrong.
 

Pinkamena

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Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
I really hope you are joking. I really hope so. Because what you just said is wrong.
Don't hate on my opinion, bruh
 

The Lunatic

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To add a complication to the matter:

The pill is very cheap.

The alternative of surgery is very expensive.


In this matter, I'd probably argue the pill should be government funded and paid for via insurance or whatever.

And the alternative should be up to private funding.
 

Haerthan

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Pinkamena said:
Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
I really hope you are joking. I really hope so. Because what you just said is wrong.
Don't hate on my opinion, bruh
That is hate speech what you just said dude. You have no right to force ANYONE, regardless of gender, identity, ethnicity, etc, in situations that FORCE change upon them. Otherwise you are no better than the Nazis and their genocidal ways.
 

Pinkamena

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Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
I really hope you are joking. I really hope so. Because what you just said is wrong.
Don't hate on my opinion, bruh
That is hate speech what you just said dude. You have no right to force ANYONE, regardless of gender, identity, ethnicity, etc, in situations that FORCE change upon them. Otherwise you are no better than the Nazis and their genocidal ways.
Kids are forced to go to school so we can change them.
 

Sleepy Sol

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Nah. Leave it up to the individual. Bodily autonomy and all that.

Though I'm not sure how open trans individuals would be to reversing their entire gender identity.
CrystalShadow said:
Even if after the fact they are ok with it, Asking about it after treatment is like asking a lobotomy patient if they are ok about having an important part of their brain removed.
That's about how I feel about it, to be honest.
 

Methodia Chicken

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A lot of people have pointed out that the disconnect on the brain/body is not a simple chemical one it is a complex genetic one effecting both. at which point such changes would suggest technology far beyond our own that would allow genetic alteration of adults, Or that such changes would have to be made at birth where no consent can be given.

At which point I would say that yes it would be moral to correct the mutation by either assigning the person their correct gender or altering the mutations effecting their perception. Anything else would be leaving them to a life with unnecessary suffering.

and if you were successful they would live a happy life and be none the wiser.

This process would have to be done so early in development that most pro-choice supporters wouldn't even consider it being done to a living individual.

I would have a serious problem with "curing" existing living thinking people. but potential people get changed against their "will" every day, it might as well be for the better.

edit: none of this applies to non-binary individuals where this would be far more complex.