A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

[Kyrian007]

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

I know the T-16 is atmospheric, but again, the movie goes to lengths as soon as Luke meets Ben that he's a good pilot. Ben says so, Luke tells Han, Biggs tells Red Leader, and at the end, we see that pay off, and even then, Luke still needs help to make the shot.

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Likewise, one can infer that he does have enough time to train in an X-Wing (an EU novel does confirm as such). Rey, novelization aside, hasn't been built up as a pilot prior to this point, has likely never flown anything before except her speeder (which isn't aerodynamic at all), and does so expertly.

So its ok to look to a novel for Luke, but not Rey? Why are we giving him more of a benefit of the doubt? Seems like a potential bias there (for whatever reason)

As for Kylo Ren, sure, he took a bowcaster bolt to the stomach, but even so, while he's hampered physically, he has far more training than Rey. The she wins against him kind of undermines him as a future villain.

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Spoiler

there is possibly a mind link between the two confusing Kylo and possibly letting Rey intuit his moves?

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

 

[Zetatrain]

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

Spoiler

If you take the old E.U. as gosple, Anakin was, unknowingly, created by Darth Plagueis through his experimentation with the Force to create life and to become immortal.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

Oh yeah, numerous 'chosen ones'. Logical continuation to mass 'lone riders' and 'dune submarines' migarations.

 

[Kyrian007]

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

And yes, she has similar potential. That's the exact point of the subtext of how parallel the similarities are between Anakin, his son, and Rey. That SAME SUBTEXT that was subverted in The Last Jedi.

 

[Sonmi]

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?

If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

To be fair, Anakin has the whole prophecy thing, as well as the EU explanation of literally being Space Jesus created by Plagueis and Sidious. He also ends up being a creepy, obsessed (slightly rapey), multiple times genocidal asshole, quite a far cry from the perpetual righteousness of Rey.

I understand that the accusation of "Sue" gets thrown around willy nilly at competent female characters nowadays, and is used in this childish culture conflict between Western conservatives/reactionaries and progressives to "score points", hell - my personal favourite fictional character Daenerys gets constantly unfairly accused of Sueishness, but let's be real, I struggle to see how Rey is anything but now that all of JJ's set-ups (including Phasma, who could have been an interesting, intimidating female villain, but ended up a complete joke two movies in a row) have been completely brushed aside by Johnson.

Unless they reuse the whole Luuke hand-clone plotline from the former EU or she gets some seriously needed character development in Episode 9, I think that'll stay my opinion. I was severely disappointed by the lack of direction the sequel trilogy seems to have at this point, I daresay TLJ might even be worse than Rogue One at this point. (Still not Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones levels of bad though)

That being said, Laura Dern was easily the best character of the movie.

 

[Sonmi]

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.[/quote]

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?

If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

my personal favourite fictional character Daenerys gets constantly unfairly accused of Sueishness

Dany is FAR from being a Mary Sue than Rey is and Dany says it right out of her mouth in Season 7 no less:

https://youtu.be/mk1DXwb-XbM?t=5m15s

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Mary Sue is a fanfiction term describing a new character's relation to an established work. It's kind of silly to judge classic characters or characters who've been in a work from jump this way whether they're over-powered wank fantasies or not.

The way these new movies mush together the meta-narrative with the narrative-narrative by literally having the protagonist and antagonist's primary motivation be literally wanting to be like the old characters is a large source of this criticism I feel. It's fan fic-y as fuck and compounded by the modern trope of "No training required." Mocked as they are, "Rocky Montages" at least feint toward the idea that greatness requires hard work and the OT made this gesture no matter how much new fans want to retcon Luke as being a superstud from jump. In nu-Star Trek (I'll let you spot the common denominator), Kirk becomes captain simply because it's his destiny and everyone ranked higher than him dies or recuses themselves and Rey is simple born with tons of force potential. I don't see how being born with your power over 9000 is any less genetic destiny/more populist than needing to be a Skywalker. I guess you don't need to become a space monk to do cool space monk shit. How convenient.

 

[Hawki]

Finn now will have a relationship with that chick I dropped in few hours ago into MY movie.

We sure? Seems like Rey, Finn, Rose, and Poe are now in some kind of love rectangle.

Shippers, take your bets!

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Luke's been a pilot long before the X-Wing, Rey hasn't had the same level of practice. Force-wise, Luke does use the Force, but it's so minor compared to Rey's feats. The equivalent would be Luke running over to Vader after Ben's 'death' and defeating him then and there.

So its ok to look to a novel for Luke, but not Rey? Why are we giving him more of a benefit of the doubt? Seems like a potential bias there (for whatever reason)

No, I didn't say that, I just highlighted that EU material accounts for both. The difference is that I feel A New Hope stands on its own better than TFA, in that, again, Luke's skill as a pilot is mentioned over and over again before he ever climbs into the X-Wing. Rey's abilities as a pilot are never mentioned once before she climbs into the Falcon. One can reasonably infer that Luke had some time to train on Yavin as well, while there's no reason to infer that Rey ever got to play around in the Falcon on Jakku, given that she's basically indendtured.

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her

A staff, not a lightsaber.

(On that note, am I the only one who thinks it would be appropriate for Rey to get a double-bladed lightsaber like Maul? She's seen with a staff reguarly, it would suit her fighting style better and give her a sense of identity.)

while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Spoiler

there is possibly a mind link between the two confusing Kylo and possibly letting Rey intuit his moves?

Doesn't Snoke create the mind link? It seems to linger, but I thought it was mostly on him.

 

[Kyrian007]

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Luke's been a pilot long before the X-Wing, Rey hasn't had the same level of practice. Force-wise, Luke does use the Force, but it's so minor compared to Rey's feats. The equivalent would be Luke running over to Vader after Ben's 'death' and defeating him then and there.

I wasn't talking about piloting (we'll just have to disagree on that, the novels say Luke trained on an x-wing, a novel says Rey did simulations, they both practice on airspeeders... I just don't see the difference) I was talking about having to use the force, something he knew nothing about until a day or so before, to bypass a computer targeting system that couldn't hit a 2 meter target at-speed.

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her

A staff, not a lightsaber.

(On that note, am I the only one who thinks it would be appropriate for Rey to get a double-bladed lightsaber like Maul? She's seen with a staff reguarly, it would suit her fighting style better and give her a sense of identity.)

Ehh, she's a fighter. It's close enough to realistically beat a wounded Vader wannabe. And I agree, a double blader would be cool and would fit in with the "doing away with the past" subtext of The Last Jedi.

while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Spoiler

there is possibly a mind link between the two confusing Kylo and possibly letting Rey intuit his moves?

Doesn't Snoke create the mind link? It seems to linger, but I thought it was mostly on him.

Spoiler

Yes he did, but we don't know when. It really could be any time after he noticed the "awakening in the force" which means it could have happened before Rey and Kylo's duel.

 

[Kyrian007]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

 

[Kyrian007]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male?

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male?

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

No dude, YOU are making it about gender. I didn't say that pandering in and of itself is bad. But it does make it easy to write badly and then have people such as yourself jump to the defense of said bad writing.

I'm saying it's not unreasonible to assume that Rey may be written the way she is to Pander. Which would be bad because we then lack a reasonible in-universe explanation for her awesomeness and are graced with people such as yourself that try to squash the criticism surrounding those poor choices in writing.

You are basically sitting here going "No, everyone stop being critical of this character. I don't want to think about how this character I like for reasons outside of the narrative doesn't seem thought out in context of the established narrative."

Your inability to handle the criticism is your problem. That's why you have to try and make it about misogyny.

And are you fucking kidding me? The main cast of these new Movies is a white Female, Asian Female, Black Male and a Latino Male. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that no pandering to special interest groups is going on here and this just incidentally came about in the process of writing the story. Really really really naive.

Also Star Wars Rogue One's protaginist is a female. I remember seeing an Article that they guys running Disney's Star Wars know what they are doing, that they want to make every Star Wars movie have Female Protagnists.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

What is entertaining in movie series devoted to character development in character that never struggles? Just has everything handed, always achieves etc.

Luke went from dumb redneck with golden heart and loving family, to force sensitive whiny ***** struggling with harsh reality (being son of fictional Hitler, becoming amputee and getting entangled in war, dealings of criminals and ancient religion), to grown man who makes respectful decisions, puts his life on the line for friends and family, is adept in warfare and shenanigans of said religion, reforms that religion adding something which both schizmatic sides of that religion seem to have lost or never had, human nature (he relies on his and sees it in others, even his father).

Luke is relatable to people who expect, that hard work and harsh beat ups that life serves may eventually give an amazing payout if someone maintains the course despite obstacles (unlike with entitled lill b&@tch Anakin). Rey is relatable if you expect to have everything just be handed to you, that you feel you're just that undiscovered prodigy like her. Never felt like working for it, because in your mind you don't have to. That you struggle, stranded like her but that's not your fault. Truth is such day never comes and even if it comes you will miss the opportunity anyway. That's why Rey is so dull and artificial as a character.

Trivial example, why would she 'rescue' BB8? It's a droid, piece of junk she's surrounded in daily. She collects and sells junk, she's nobody from nowhere, that has to think about her survival daily, not devise anthropomorphism of droids.
Luke the farm boy would help to catch it for few creds and move on with his life. Why she wouldn't? After 2nd part it's obvious, there's nothing to motivate such action but yet she did 'the right thing'. Luke did 'the right thing' by sheer coincidence. Sure he was written into it but not at expense of his character.

It's a blow doll equivalent of 'power fantasy', just like Amilyn Holdo is a blow doll of leadership and sacrifice. All the pretense none of substance. Neither of these 2 earned the payout they recieve. Unlike Luke and Leia, who prove themselves. They're not perfect but both work for their goals, both pay for their choices, both thread on despite problems. They could be just an unrelated, random shmuck from Tatooine and daughter of notable politician from Alderaan and their characters would still work.

It all spins around idea, that if you work hard, fate (or the foooorceee) may toss you a bone from time to time. If you're good, that will be all that you need to pull yourself to greatness.

Trying to deprecate this obvious disparity down to set of genitalias on character is a nonsense.

 

[Sonmi]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

Wesley was always an obnoxiously talented at everything Gary Stu, him becoming a crutch later on is more further proof that Roddenberry was losing his touch more than anything. One could argue that Hermione, by comparison, is also often used a crutch by Rowling in HP, but despite being hypercompetent, she's no Sue, she has her vulnerabilities of her own, things Sues/Stus don't tend to have. Wesley, Rey, and Jon Snow sure as hell don't for one.

The complaints about Rey being a Sue are worse this time around because people trusted that her hypercompetence would be explained by the second movie, that all of the mystery surrounding her was simply one of the classic Abrams ploy. Johnson took over though, and scrapped pretty much everything Abrams had set-up... Rey's backstory, the Knights of Ren, Captain Phasma, Supreme Leader Snoke, they've all been thrashed, leaving no proper explanation for Rey being... well, Rey.

Jon Snow is in a similar situation as Rey as far as being unbelievable goes. He has the same problem of being automatically trusted and cherished by every "good" character around him, be that Mormont, the Halfhand, Stannis, Mance, Tyrion (though "good" is shoddily applied here), or Ygritte, without ever having to prove himself or to actually endearing himself to them. Add to that the fact both of them also obtain a "magic sword" in a poorly written way (Mormont giving Jon his family heirloom for no reason, Luke's lightsabre "choosing" Rey), poorly explained magical powers (Rey's force sensitivity/Jon's warging abilities), or inherit gratuitously other characters' sidekicks only adds to that. They're poorly written YA protagonists that the creator desperately want you to root for, and Sues/Stus.

The fact that "redpilled" morons are acting like "redpilled" morons and ridiculously blaming a feminist conspiracy behind Rey being a Sue does not make her any less of a Sue.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I think all this Rey debate can be ended with one sentnce:

Rey is not a good and well written character.

This character will not be as fondly remembered and iconic as Luke Skywalker, Kylo Ren will not be as rememebered and iconic as Darth Vader.

No kid will buy a Kylo Ren action figure over a Darth Vader one.

 

[Random Gamer]

Also Star Wars Rogue One's protaginist is a female. I remember seeing an Article that they guys running Disney's Star Wars know what they are doing, that they want to make every Star Wars movie have Female Protagnists.

And - as just said above me - she wasn't exactly a Mary Sue either. More balanced character than Rey, definitely. Not due to the actresses but to the writing. Odds are, those writers could write a terrible Gary Sue under the "right" circumstances.

 

[cathou]

The complaints about Rey being a Sue are worse this time around because people trusted that her hypercompetence would be explained by the second movie, that all of the mystery surrounding her was simply one of the classic Abrams ploy. Johnson took over though, and scrapped pretty much everything Abrams had set-up... Rey's backstory, the Knights of Ren, Captain Phasma, Supreme Leader Snoke, they've all been thrashed, leaving no proper explanation for Rey being... well, Rey.

Seriously, i would be more pissed if Rey was a Skywalker, a Solo or a Kenobi. She a nobody, the force activate her power to balance Kylo Ren, i like that explanation actually. I think i said it before, but Jedi are not suppose to have kids, so why everyone have decided that to be powerfull she needed to be a Skywalker.

The knights of Ren, could very well still be in the story. all the movie was on Snoke's ship, maybe they are traiing elsewhere, maybe they are on missions elsewhere, maybe they stay in their capital...

Phasma, i admit, she is a let down. she could have more things to do. i think Hux should have stayed in space, and Kylo and Phasma directing the attack on the ground, keeping her alive for another movie.

Snoke, well, he had is role. he corrupted Kylo, he put in place the first order, and get killed. why i should need more ? i mean, take the OT. after return of the jedi, we know as much about the Emperor than we know about Snoke. all the Emperor or even the Empire backstory was never truly explain the the OT. and nobody got mad about it...

 

[Natemans]

I think all this Rey debate can be ended with one sentnce:

Rey is not a good and well written character.

This character will not be as fondly remembered and iconic as Luke Skywalker, Kylo Ren will not be as rememebered and iconic as Darth Vader.

No kid will buy a Kylo Ren action figure over a Darth Vader one.

I disagree with most of that. Most people I've talked to have pretty much liked both of those characters a lot.