A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I wasn't big on some of the humor either (but the fish maids were brilliant, fite me), but just because humor didn't land for you doesn't make it an attack on Star Wars fans, sheesh.

Don't be so defensive about the criticism. It's not the 'attack' it's type of humour used. I said it resonated well with a large audience but it was at the expense of SW not humour within SW. Type of humour that is just 'not funny' if you actually care for SW.
Fish nuns were ripped right out of Monty Python. Absurd, funny but not really original and imo out of place in SW (though yeah, funny).

You don't need to grab that criticism and kindap into insanity of being attacked, taking offense, edge lords, triggering and snowflakes territory. Making fun out of geeks and nerds isn't an attack. Not liking them isn't a crime.

 

[Neverhoodian]

I wasn't big on some of the humor either (but the fish maids were brilliant, fite me), but just because humor didn't land for you doesn't make it an attack on Star Wars fans, sheesh.

Don't be so defensive about the criticism. It's not the 'attack' it's type of humour used. I said it resonated well with a large audience but it was at the expense of SW not humour within SW. Type of humour that is just 'not funny' if you actually care for SW.
Fish nuns were ripped right out of Monty Python. Absurd, funny but not really original and imo out of place in SW (though yeah, funny).

How is it any more "out of place in Star Wars" than what we've seen before?

Spoiler: Pictured: part of Star Wars

​

Then there's the "Legends" continuity, which I'll remind you was considered canonical prior to the Disney buyout:

Spoiler: Formerly part of Star Wars

And that's not even getting into the plethora of spoofs and parodies out there, some of which involved Mr. Lucas himself (apparently he's a fan of that kind of stuff).

The point I'm trying to make is that Star Wars has poked fun at itself on many occasions prior to TLJ. People who say otherwise are suffering from a bad case of nostalgia goggles.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

but the fish maids were brilliant, fite me

Why would I? They kind of remind me of Cthulhu Mythos Deep Ones, but they're also nuns, which immediately called to mind images of Jedi Pope Francis fighting a Shoggoth with his lightsaber papal ferula. ... don't ask.

 

[maninahat]

I liked it. It's a movie with lots of niggling, weird things that weren't executed as well as they could have been (Superleia, Rose's final act twist, the stupid Marvel quipping). I think a lot of the criticisms are really stupid however (like moaning about force powers, or Luke being a failure).

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I wasn't big on some of the humor either (but the fish maids were brilliant, fite me), but just because humor didn't land for you doesn't make it an attack on Star Wars fans, sheesh.

Don't be so defensive about the criticism. It's not the 'attack' it's type of humour used. I said it resonated well with a large audience but it was at the expense of SW not humour within SW. Type of humour that is just 'not funny' if you actually care for SW.
Fish nuns were ripped right out of Monty Python. Absurd, funny but not really original and imo out of place in SW (though yeah, funny).

How is it any more "out of place in Star Wars" than what we've seen before?

Spoiler: Pictured: part of Star Wars

​

Spoiler

Then there's the "Legends" continuity, which I'll remind you was considered canonical prior to the Disney buyout:

Spoiler: Formerly part of Star Wars

And that's not even getting into the plethora of spoofs and parodies out there, some of which involved Mr. Lucas himself (apparently he's a fan of that kind of stuff).

The point I'm trying to make is that Star Wars has poked fun at itself on many occasions prior to TLJ. People who say otherwise are suffering from a bad case of nostalgia goggles.

You have there 'an error', Yoda pretending to be a madmen to test Luke, R2 collapsing and Ewoks. It's all part of humour in SW I talked about. Even JJ knew how to do that in TFA. Then you have the parody of SW. There's nothing out of place with that. SW is so quirky itself it's pretty easy to make parody of it and since it became part of pop-culture a lot of artist did that and good.

However, unless Disney comes out and says: surprise we were making a parody trilogy of SW in the loving memory of Space Balls, then we'll make actual trilogy that will continue previous 2 trilogies of SW, you have no point. I actually would love them to do just that...

It's the entire premise I mention. Creating SW, as if that were SW parody but telling every fan 'this is your SW now, deal with it, it's always been just a dumb eat-popcorn-suspend-belief movie anyway'. It oozes with contepmt to SW or complete lack of understanding why people loved original content.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I liked it. It's a movie with lots of niggling, weird things that weren't executed as well as they could have been (Superleia, Rose's final act twist, the stupid Marvel quipping). I think a lot of the criticisms are really stupid however (like moaning about force powers, or Luke being a failure).

Nobody makes this kind of criticism.

Luke has been 'a failure' to begin with and he had a life journey out of being a whiny redneck. Complaint is, that he was poorly re-written back to 'being a failure' point, just to make way for new characters. Motivation being outlandish and inconsistent with character development, character regress non-explained. All virtue of character willing to sacrifice himself for friends and lose a limb in the process, sacrifice himself again just to have a shot at redeeming his murderous, sadistic father etc. all of that written off for no aparent reason.

It reeks of either poorly written fanfiction where author tries to deal with his personal demons or just really shitty, lazy writting, where producers told to make way for 'new merchandise' and it has been done with a hatchet in the most crude 'who gives the f-k' way.
To be frank, if that hermit ex-Jedi, that cut himself off from the force, living in middle of nunsville, was not Luke, this actually wouldn't be a bad character, because there would be free reign on shaping his past and character development.

The other large complaint is not about 'force powers' themselves but their inflation and casual use and inconsistency. That use to be a mixed bag in EU but somehow is now part of the core, just to serve as a get-out-of-jail card when they write so many plot holes everything starts falling apart. People use to love displays of 'the force' in the movies in key moments but it degenerated to It's the force ok? Force can do anything, ok? Now stf-up and eat your pop-corn you nerd. sort of thing.

That's what doesn't feel right to SW fans which you casually mirepresent and try to depreciate its validity as 'being stupid criticisms', yet don't provide any arguments to support that claim.

 

[maninahat]

I liked it. It's a movie with lots of niggling, weird things that weren't executed as well as they could have been (Superleia, Rose's final act twist, the stupid Marvel quipping). I think a lot of the criticisms are really stupid however (like moaning about force powers, or Luke being a failure).

Nobody makes this kind of criticism. [proceeds to make that kind of criticism] Luke has been 'a failure' to begin with and he had a life journey out of being a whiny redneck. Complaint is, that he was poorly re-written back to 'being a failure' point, just to make way for new characters. Motivation being outlandish and inconsistent with character development, character regress non-explained. All virtue of character willing to sacrifice himself for friends and lose a limb in the process, sacrifice himself again just to have a shot at redeeming his murderous, sadistic father etc. all of that written off for no aparent reason.

The Last Jedi makes most of Rey's arc on the island about trying to figure out how Luke has become this no-hoper sourpuss - they explain it in a lot of detail; about how his temple got wrecked, his students killed, and how he became instrumental in turning his nephew into the new Darth Vader during a brief moment of desperation. He realised he was a crap teacher who wasn't immune to dark thoughts, and who messed up his one big opportunity to bring back the Jedi. That's why he's undergone such a transition over the last couple of decades. And also it sets up his sacrifice at the end, redeeming himself.

The other large complaint is not about 'force powers' themselves but their inflation and casual use and inconsistency. That use to be a mixed bag in EU but somehow is now part of the core, just to serve as a get-out-of-jail card when they write so many plot holes everything starts falling apart. People use to love displays of 'the force' in the movies in key moments but it degenerated to It's the force ok? Force can do anything, ok? Now stf-up and eat your pop-corn you nerd. sort of thing.

That's what doesn't feel right to SW fans which you casually mirepresent and try to depreciate its validity as 'being stupid criticisms', yet don't provide any arguments to support that claim.

New Jedi powers has always been an ad hoc thing in Star Wars, for the purpose of a magical get-out-of-jail free card. the whole "Force can make shit fly" was bullshit invented by Empire Strikes Back, as was the "stop lasers with hand" move, the "see ghost versions of dead jedi" trick, the "super jump", the "force visions", and the "make long distance calls". Jedi ups it with goddamn electricity hands. The force is a vague collection of magic tricks that the writers give Jedi, deus ex machina style, whenever they feel like it. Those SW fans are somehow pretending they didn't watch it happen in all those other perfect movies, only to get mad when it crops up this time around.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I liked it. It's a movie with lots of niggling, weird things that weren't executed as well as they could have been (Superleia, Rose's final act twist, the stupid Marvel quipping). I think a lot of the criticisms are really stupid however (like moaning about force powers, or Luke being a failure).

Nobody makes this kind of criticism. [proceeds to make that kind of criticism] Luke has been 'a failure' to begin with and he had a life journey out of being a whiny redneck. Complaint is, that he was poorly re-written back to 'being a failure' point, just to make way for new characters. Motivation being outlandish and inconsistent with character development, character regress non-explained. All virtue of character willing to sacrifice himself for friends and lose a limb in the process, sacrifice himself again just to have a shot at redeeming his murderous, sadistic father etc. all of that written off for no aparent reason.

The Last Jedi makes most of Rey's arc on the island about trying to figure out how Luke has become this no-hoper sourpuss - they explain it in a lot of detail; about how his temple got wrecked, his students killed, and how he became instrumental in turning his nephew into the new Darth Vader during a brief moment of desperation. He realised he was a crap teacher who wasn't immune to dark thoughts, and who messed up his one big opportunity to bring back the Jedi. That's why he's undergone such a transition over the last couple of decades. And also it sets up his sacrifice at the end, redeeming himself.

The other large complaint is not about 'force powers' themselves but their inflation and casual use and inconsistency. That use to be a mixed bag in EU but somehow is now part of the core, just to serve as a get-out-of-jail card when they write so many plot holes everything starts falling apart. People use to love displays of 'the force' in the movies in key moments but it degenerated to It's the force ok? Force can do anything, ok? Now stf-up and eat your pop-corn you nerd. sort of thing.

That's what doesn't feel right to SW fans which you casually mirepresent and try to depreciate its validity as 'being stupid criticisms', yet don't provide any arguments to support that claim.

New Jedi powers has always been an ad hoc thing in Star Wars, for the purpose of a magical get-out-of-jail free card. the whole "Force can make shit fly" was bullshit invented by Empire Strikes Back, as was the "stop lasers with hand" move, the "see ghost versions of dead jedi" trick, the "super jump", the "force visions", and the "make long distance calls". Jedi ups it with goddamn electricity hands. The force is a vague collection of magic tricks that the writers give Jedi, deus ex machina style, whenever they feel like it. Those SW fans are somehow pretending they didn't watch it happen in all those other perfect movies, only to get mad when it crops up this time around.

You confuse insertation with explanation. They made up 'I forsaw dark future and decided for a moment to kill my twin sister's son over it' and reapeated it few times like washing powder commercial trying to make it stick. It doesn't though, because it is contradicting to his past character development and his decision and deeds in far more grim circumstances.
This is why, if that were a new character this whole arc could have been salvaged and play out well. Dropping Luke into it is just pretentiously dumb (Oh look mom! I re-wrote Luke!) or unimaginatively devisive, done for practical reasons (understandable but still petty).

Yes, as I mentioned 'inflation' was a thing before and yes, it was used in key moments before and it were celebrated. The difference here is it becomes effortlessly casual ie. can't be arsed to pick up my broom and self spiteful ie. force is not for lifting rocks - protagonist lifts rocks to save the day, we need to kill Ackbar but Leia should live - princess gets dragged back into the ship in grotesque statue pose by the force... JJ showed off and added to that 'inflation' ie. laser bolt frozen mid-flight, protagonist playing with her victim while performing mind-trick but this time it was just tasteless cringe. Even Snoke's skype calls, mind rape and toying with protagonist or Luke blowing up a hut and ripping off Matrix some people liked I found rather out of place. Entriety felt forced or mockingly used with obligatory See I am now using this dumb force to patch up this plot hole, see how idiotic it is?, which maybe made director all feel good and smart about himself but just wasn't what fans wanted to see SW depicted as.

 

[Callate]

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

I think what others have been trying to say is this: It would still be a problem; it just would be a problem without cover to prevent it from being addressed and possibly corrected. Right now there's more than one article circulating the Internet forwarding the premise that anyone with a problem with Rey as presented (and in some cases, the greater movie) must be a misogynist, with zero regard for what they might actually say or the arguments they might make.

"Girl power, yay!" is a perfectly fine sentiment to have, but it shouldn't be mistaken for a serious analysis or an argument, much less the argument that should be allowed to shout all others down.

 

[Spade Lead]

There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

I watched all 8 Star Wars movies in one sitting, straight through, after this movie, and yes, Episode 8 made 7 much more enjoyable, and yes, Rey's Mary-Sue tendencies are overwritten by the fact that she blatantly and literally is shown in the film to be drawn to the dark side with no hesitation or qualms. I just hope she doesn't end up being some grey jedi stain on the franchise, because "I can use dark side powers without succumbing to the dark side" is bullshit writing.

 

[Spade Lead]

Spoiler

What an odd movie.

Spoiler

I feel bad for Abrams. I'm far from the biggest fan of TFA, but it's gotta burn to be called back in after another director has deliberately subverted and dismantled 95% percent of the set-up you established in the film prior. But then again, fuck Abrams for trying to pass the buck with all his "The next two movies will explain it..." horseshit. None of the "mystery boxes" he set up had compelling explanations, so can people cop to some of TFA's weak writing now?


Also, Emperor throne room battle, I'mma let you finish, but Holdo's warp kamikaze was the greatest Star Wars kill of ALL TIME. Seriously. Coolest kill of the property.

The problem is that Holdo's move breaks Star Wars combat forever. One ship took out an entire fleet. They now have to explain why no one has ever done this before and will never do it again

 

[Spade Lead]

no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie

It is totally fine to not like the movie, but you don't need to exaggerate/lie about what it does. If there's one thing TLJ does, it is provide character development. All of the four new main cast (Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo) get a clear arc in this movie and resolve it neatly with some character growth:

Rey: Learns that her heritage is unimportant and stops trying to find surrogate parents to cling to.
Finn: Gets to see the logical end point of his "I don't want to get involved"-stance and realizes he does not want to become like DJ, thus galvanizing him to take a stand against the First Order.
Poe: Has to face the realization that winning the battle is not winning the war and has to come to terms with following orders and trusting others to do what's right, instead of rushing off to do his own thing.
Kylo: Stops trying to mimic Vader, realizes that Snoke is manipulating him and resolves to reshape the galaxy to his own ideals.

Whether these arcs and plots are any good can be discussed, but they are undoubtedly there.

Kylo became the hero of the new trilogy because he proved he is the only one with character development and a mind of his own, Poe learned that the Empire was right all along, shut up and do as you are told, even if what you are told wastes a tactical advantage that ends up being a major plot point that you were right and the entire resistance would be dead without your "Pointless Sacrifice" of a few bombers that would have been in a hangar that was destroyed less than 15 minutes later anyway, and Finn goes from being... A guy who willingly and eagerly slaughters his former allies and possibly even friends to a guy who... Attacks the people he used to work with and for because they are evil, even though they are all brainwashed and unable to see that what they are doing is wrong, thus making him a brutal murderer of innocents who have no control over their own actions.

Yeah, this movie is way better than Episode 7, but in the same way that my shit that smells kind of like a Triple Whopper is way better than a diarrhea shit that smells awful.

 

[Spade Lead]

This is actually one of the parts where I felt the movie actually kept the Resistance looking like a proper military force. Poe is a Commander, demoted to Captain. That means that at best he's a wing commander responsible for some half dozen ships and pilots. As a Captain he's the lead wingman in a fighter pair. Why should this guy, hero or not, be briefed on a plan that's devised by an Admiral (some six or seven ranks above the commander) and hinges on secrecy to be successful? For all the Resistance knows, there's a mole on their ships that's feeding the First Order their location and that's how they got tracked.

By brushing Poe aside and telling him to suck it up, Huldo is actually acting in a way that I'd expect a military leader to act. They aren't going to brief every random joe in their organisation personally on the grand strategy of the war, they will tell those people to get back in line and wait for orders. This also makes Poe's arc and the way it is played a nice deconstruction of the Ace trope. Poe might be the Ace, but the Resistance is still a military organisation with a clear chain of command and they are not making exceptions just because that one guy is a damn good pilot.

Demotion or not, Poe is still highest ranking Squadron Leader which makes him Commander Air Group, fourth in line for command, behind Admiral Buzzfeed, the Captain of the ship they are aboard, and the XO of the ship they are aboard.

That right there is reason enough to keep him in the loop, since a catastrophic loss of command has already happened once today, and other officers who should outrank Poe keep going down with their ships instead of retreating to safety, further proving Admiral Holdo is a fuckwit who wasted lives and materiel.

 

[Spade Lead]

Why can she, with no prior explanation of how to even do it, force pull a lightsaber from a significant distance and great speed to herself when Luke struggled to accomplish pulling one to himself that was merely a few feet away despite the fact the he was further along in his training?

Where he was concussed by a Wampanoag and hung upside down, where the sum total of his training was "block these blaster bolts" and "just feel the shot"?

You mean the way Rey would have had a concussion from being tossed more than fifteen meters through the air to strike her head and back against a tree that was behind her, then fell five more meters to the ground?

 

[Spade Lead]

Back on topic over here, I liked it. There were a few odd momements (the chase scene in the Casino Town came far too close to something out of the prequels for my liking). There were some convienant plot holes and Finn's sidequest went preciesly nowhere, but I still enjoyed it, moreso than TFA and definitly more than Rogue One.

What I don't see is how it's worse than the prequels. Anyone who says that should be forced to rewatch those atrocities; remind themselves that the sequel triology couldn't possibly be worse than those movies.

I watched all 8 of the current bluray movies in one day, and the prequels are still better than the sequel trilogy

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

The problem is that Holdo's move breaks Star Wars combat forever. One ship took out an entire fleet. They now have to explain why no one has ever done this before and will never do it again

This is just conjecture, but perhaps it's not done for the same reason high-speed impacts in space are so dangerous in real life: it tends to create a cloud of fast-moving debris that can ruin the day of anyone that crosses its path. If you've ever seen the movie Gravity, it's like that.

It's the reason space agencies are so meticulous about keeping track of every object they've left up there, lest something they send up collides with something else, the debris of which smashes another, which then smashes another, and so on in a domino effect. This is called the Kessler syndrome and if it cascades enough, it can render space activities extremely risky to impossible because our orbit is full of schrapnel wizzing around like hypersonic bullets.

How does this relate to Star Wars? Well, Holdo's kamikaze would be much, much, MUCH worse. Hit something at lightspeed and you can have debris moving at relativistic speeds. At those velocities even tiny objects carry a fuckton of energy. As in 'hits like a nuke' and above levels of energy. And they won't ever slow down or stop until they hit something, which may be millennia later.

The movies have at various times stressed how important it is for the navigation computer to calculate a safe route before jumping to lightspeed, because flying into something while travelling at c would really suck. I can imagine space travel would lose some of its appeal when everybody starts doing Holdos, filling up the most travelled routes with near impossible to detect or track swarms of relativistic death.

 

[Spade Lead]

However, the outrage against it can not be chalked up only to its' weird pacing, few weird character moments (Holdo's adamant refusal to tell Poe [...]

I thought this was odd while I was watching the film, but after thinking about it, I don't think it was terribly strange after all. Holdo is a commander; Poe is a pilot, not an adviser, vice-admiral, or commander. It is not his job to know the broader strategy behind decision-making-- it's his job to fly an X-Wing.

Military commanders in the real world do not tend to inform soldiers of broader strategy.

If Holdo and three other people (all located in the same compartment of the ship, just like when Leia and Ackbar were shot into space along with 99% of the Resistance leadership) died, Poe would be the next in line for command. Your military analogy is flawed in that you actually don't seem to know how a chain of command is actually organized. Poe isn't just some pilot, he is CAG, Commander Air Group, only outranked by his ship's Executive Officer, the Commanding Officer, and any Admiral aboard.

 

[Spade Lead]

The problem is that Holdo's move breaks Star Wars combat forever. One ship took out an entire fleet. They now have to explain why no one has ever done this before and will never do it again

The movies have at various times stressed how important it is for the navigation computer to calculate a safe route before jumping to lightspeed, because flying into something while travelling at c would really suck. I can imagine space travel would lose some of its appeal when everybody starts doing Holdos, filling up the most travelled routes with near impossible to detect or track swarms of relativistic death.

True, but at the same time, if your choice is Alderaan dies or you jump your X-Wing into the Death Star, destroying it and possibly throwing some shrapnel around at relativistic speeds, surely the better option is to save Alderaan. Besides, relativistic shrapnel will clear the galaxy pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things. Just make sure the shrapnel is aimed at an enemy formation or territory as well.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

The problem is that Holdo's move breaks Star Wars combat forever. One ship took out an entire fleet. They now have to explain why no one has ever done this before and will never do it again

The movies have at various times stressed how important it is for the navigation computer to calculate a safe route before jumping to lightspeed, because flying into something while travelling at c would really suck. I can imagine space travel would lose some of its appeal when everybody starts doing Holdos, filling up the most travelled routes with near impossible to detect or track swarms of relativistic death.

True, but at the same time, if your choice is Alderaan dies or you jump your X-Wing into the Death Star, destroying it and possibly throwing some shrapnel around at relativistic speeds, surely the better option is to save Alderaan. Besides, relativistic shrapnel will clear the galaxy pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things. Just make sure the shrapnel is aimed at an enemy formation or territory as well.

I suppose. Then again, Star Wars requires a lot of suspension of disbelief in general, so I'm guessing 'no one does tactical lightspeed kamikaze' is just one more in-universe convention we just have to accept, with Holdo's being the one exception cuz ... I don't know, they needed a cool set piece?

If anything tho, the movie grossly understates how destructive Holdo's maneouvre would be. I did some quick and dirty kinetic energy calculations using a rough estimate for the Raddus mass hitting at 99,99% c and the results are ... utterly terrifying.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well, obviously, lightspeed kamikaze attack's must be difficult to pull off.

Otherwise you strap a hyperspace engine to a drone and let 'er rip.

Then again, it seems like there's only a danger if the ship hits something during the transition to hyperspace. All of Han's "you must be an idiot" examples involved huge gravity wells, which can pull things out of hyperspace, but not other solid things, else any random bit of space debris would annihilate a traveling ship.